Do you think this was cruel of me?

[Da Monkey]

It's just the Internet. You don't even know if she has cancer or not. So many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.

Either way, if she is going to get mad at gender reassignment surgeries because she somehow thinks it takes up surgeons time who could be curing cancer then she should at least be fair and get mad at ANYone who has any kind of surgery that isn't related to anything 'life threatening' ie. wisdom teeth removed, corrective eye surgery, nose jobs, blaw blaw blaw and what about even breast reduction for those with back problems? I don't get her point?

[bojangles]

Da Monkey makes some good points. She might be lying. Even if she really does have cancer, she is using it to add more weight to her narrow minded view. Cancer stinks, but it didn't make her say that stuff. She just doesn't like what Chaz is doing.

Emotional damage is just as real as physical damage.

I have read quite a few articles that support this. Based on personal experience, it would not surprise me if this woman was an emotional abuser masquerading as some sort of poor victim.

[N.Chaos]

That's not nearly as bad as what I would have said.

This.

[Jasper]

OMG.

Sure, I can understand where she's coming from. But in complete honesty that's very selfish of her. I'm sure she knows that many of us have to move or travel pretty huge distances to be able to access those doctors, just like she might need to.
It's really annoying to me that people will take things like this to the extreme, but also I think that in the right circumstances she could be right.

Sure, we're being "selfish" by wanting the same surgeries that she needs to live, but don't we need them to live too? There are so many trans people out there killing themselves over this issue that it's rediculous. But people with breast cancer die too. Not all of them, but some.

People die whether they want to or not. It would suck to be the one to die, but that's how life works. If we can do something about it and we want to use our time and hard-earned money to have the surgery, then how is that different from what she wants? We all live, we all have to work, and we all have the choice to do what we want to with our money.

She should shut up about it and get her butt to work so she can pay for the things she needs, just like we have to. Equality? No. Life.

I know my opinions may be harsh, but that's why it's my opinion.

[tekla]

I taught for years at a super huge state university, one with a Division I sports program in all it's testosterone and money soaked glory.  You think the jocks you know in HS are self-centered, entitled little ego trips?  Wait till they are winning championships and talking million dollar signing bonuses.  I've spend about half my life in Iowa (the other half in California), and there ain't a whole lot to do in Iowa.  Matter of fact, nothing.  But, every four years the political circus comes to the state, and over the years I worked for a number of failed campaigns (Jerry Brown - twice, Jesse Jackson, John Anderson - I gave the Pubs a shot, yeesh -  Bill Bradley, and Bruce Babbit), and when I wasn't doing stuff for my candidate I went out and did the 'retail politics' thing, so I met most of the people who've run.  Sat up past midnight with Jimmy Carter in our dorm, put up Jerry Brown in our house several times, had several lunches with Jessie Jackson when I drove him around, and I also met Pat Buchanan, ShrubII, and all the opposition dudes.  And, if your looking for some really horrible people who demand things out of other that they wouldn't dream of doing themselves, well there you have them.  And, as y'all know I've worked with all your favorite rock stars, and all the ones you don't like so much too.  Some of them have so much ego that it requires a separate truck to move it, and it seeming has it's own gravity field too as people get sucked into it all the time - and once your in there you begin to realize that for these people not a single other thing on this planet - living or dead - that matters the least bit, it's really all about them, all the time.  Rock Star is just a cool way to say "douchenozzle' as far as I can tell.

I point all that out - the Big Time Jocks, the Political Scum and the Rocktards - to give you some scale for my next remark.

Really, some of you are pretty much the worst people I've ever met.  With the sickest, most nauseating, soul-sucking trait there is - that there is one rule EVERYone better follow when it comes to you, but anytime you find it convenient to blow the rest of the world out your ass you'll do it in a heartbeat.  People who would demand from others that which they are unwilling (or unable) to give themselves is one of the things that day in and day out makes the world a worse place to live in.

You don't even know if she has cancer or not.  So many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.
Pot meet kettle?  (By the way, people make up all sort of ->-bleeped-<- in the real world too, when you actually get there, you'll find that out.)  How do we know you have GID, or are trans?  Or hell, maybe you are a real monkey.  Maybe you are some Jr. High kid who's mom ain't paying attention, or maybe your some Old guy in a nursing home having some fun at our expense in your last days.  Perhaps your a cop.  Or a plant - an agent provocateur - sent over from the God Hates ->-bleeped-<- church.  How do we know?  After all, all sort of messed up people are making all kinds of ->-bleeped-<- up.

If you would not take the world of a person who says they are dying of cancer (a pretty popular disease by the way, it's hardly rare), why in the hell should anyone take yours?  At least she can prove she has cancer (or a doctor can).  You don't even have that going for you.  Everyone must take you at your word, but you think everyone else is lying.  Wow.  I can't imagine how messed up the world you see is.

it would not surprise me if this woman was an emotional abuser masquerading as some sort of poor victim.
Pot meets kettle part duex.  I hear a litany of emotional abuse, one on top of the other in here every day.  Hell the site could be called "AbuseStack" there's so much of it.  Lots of victims too.  Victims of society, victims of their family, victims of thier church, victims of their government, their culture, their schools, of their kids, spouses - hell it's almost an endless list.  Lots easier to just list off who your not a victim of: yourself.  Nope none of this is due to any choice you make, nah.  Perish the thought.  You are not in here masquerading as totally superior TS person, nah.  Only cancer people do that.

She might be lying
Sure, prove it.  Or better yet, prove you're not lying.  After all: so many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.

it didn't make her say that stuff
It sure could.  You're facing your own death, finding a hard time getting the right care, and taking enough meds everyday to make Keith Richards high for a month.  People in that kind of situation say all kinds of things exactly because of the way the illness takes over your life, your soul, and your mind.

I have read quite a few articles
Have read, or half read?  Or is that the same difference?  Quite the expert now that you've read something on the net.  In theory of course (which is where you are, you are abstractly studying it) there is no difference between theory and practice.  In practice (the reality of actually doing, or going through it, or being with real people who are doing it), of course there is.  And, is not the advice for dealing with such people not to engage them in the first place?  (Yes, it is.  I did read the stuff to the end.)

I dont see people even should be friendly to her.
Why not just ignore her?  But picking on her makes you look like a lightweight, and insensitive lout, someone with less than zero understanding of social manners, and someone who is so completely and utterly self absorbed that they are totally unaware of the suffering of others - or how you are coming off to others.  I'm surprised you are all not running for the Republican nomination for President.  Really.  Because turn it around - substitute 'trans' or "chaz' for cancer and your posts sound straight off of RedState or FreeRepublic. 

See, I hope you're satisfied, you've turned out just like them.


So, now I'm stuck, and see if you can help me out.  For the life of me I can't figure out why in the hell you would even engage in that kind of argument with that kind of person on-line.  It's can't be because your a stalwart defender of trans rights, because no one in their right mind is going to think that picking a fight with a cancer patient is going to further the cause.  If you think you're helping, you are not.  Just about everyone has lost someone close to them to that illness, and you just alienated every single one of them.  Thanks for nothing.

Or is it that at the end of the day you just want ever so bad to be that cheap thug, some low-rent bullies (because all bullies are low-rent)?  Does it make you feel like more of a man to go out and beat up on some sick person?  What, there wasn't a cripple around so you could kick their crutches out from underneath them?  School's not in session so you can pick on the Special Ed kids?

Or are your social skills really that bad?  Do you really have no idea how horrible you sound?  How mean that all seems?  Can't you hold a bake sale or a car wash and buy some empathy?   

If you plant ice, you're going to harvest wind.  Sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.  You get what you give.  If you want respect, you best be giving it.  If you want people to believe you, you best believe other people.

I'll just leave this little curse: I just hope that all the people you meet and have to work with are just like you.

[Da Monkey]

Just saying why get so hung up over what a person online says (or yes even in the real world (Christ, I'm not 5 years old))  OR even worry so much about what you said was 'cruel' or not, who cares.

Also, my point about her lying is that she could just be using it to make you feel sorry for her so you automatically want to believe her point and feel like a dick for wanting gender reassignment surgery. That's why people are getting so defensive about it because it's working. Just because she may or may not have cancer doesn't mean she can say whatever she wants and we're not allowed to disagree with her.

Either way, I disagree that we need these surgeries 'as much' as someone with cancer. I find that to be a bit conceited. If you want to kill yourself because of your trans, that sucks, but cancer literally kills you whether you want to die or not.

[Natkat]

I dont get your point, it not like I want to put people down but I dont feel like respecting people putting me down just because there felling bad for themself or whatever reason they have,
like I shouldn't put anyone down just because im felling bad about me. and when people litterelly say its my own fault and I just can go on and die then I have no way of respecting these people not when im not responsible for it, and I am NOT responsible for her having cancer.

yeah your right thats the diffrent between us,

people want to help her because she got cancer
people want me dead because im a freak

she cant get help for all the other people who wanna help her, but when she want me to die then I wont help her, that sound as suicide in my ears.

[Clive]

tekla, I admire your compassion, in the respect that you completely acknowledge that fear of death can make people say things they might not otherwise have said.

But surely you can also understand that it's a natural reaction for members of a community to feel hurt when anyone, healthy or sick, erroneously accuses them of using up resources that could help sick and dying people.

We all have our trials, and of course we should try to understand that sometimes people say things out of hurt or anger or fear, but at the same time surely we shouldn't be allowed to unjustly vent our anger or fear onto targets that don't deserve it - targets who are facing their own trials, entirely separate, and so different that they can't possibly be held up against the trials of a person with cancer for someone to say - 'this one's better' or 'this one's worse.'   

The lady who commented on Chaz Bono's video seems to be in a lot of distress - she appears to be speaking emotionally and not entirely rationally.  There is an obvious logic behind her feelings - if you think about it in the simplest terms, it does seem unfair that people want or need to have healthy breasts removed in order to achieve quality of life, when others would give anything to have those healthy breasts.  What the lady, perhaps understandably, is missing, is that transsexual people don't actually have the impact she thinks on cancer surgery.

She also seems to be overlooking, or not grasping, the fact that though suicide might seem like a choice to those not suicidal, to the suicidal it is not so much a choice as a course of action that at the time seems like the only alternative to pain, which is why it is so vital that other alternatives to pain - alternatives that assist continued LIFE - are offered for everyone - cancer patients, people with chronic back pain, people with mental illnesses & people who are born into wrongly gendered bodies.  Because surely this is what all humankind strives for - it's what she seems to be striving for - to find solutions and alternatives to pain so that life is bearable and, if we're lucky, even enjoyable and occasionally wonderful.

Her anger's mid-directed.  Perhaps she's really angry at chance, or fate, or a Higher Power, or irony, or happenstance, or coincidence, or simply the facts of life - whatever thing it is that makes one person despise their breasts and need to get rid of them and another person long for healthy breasts, or indeed makes one person wish desperately to have been born into a female body when another born into just such a body wishes desperately to be physically male.  But because of her distress she's directed her anger at the wrong target.

I wouldn't have the faintest idea what her prognosis is, but it's awful, just awful, that she has a potentially terminal illness.  But, she's alive at present, and I don't think it's necessarily acceptable that during her time on this Earth she should spread bad feeling amongst complete strangers who are simply trying to live their lives in the best way they can.

Whether we're dying or not, we all have humanity in common - shouldn't we all try to bear in mind that everyone's a person, with their own unique difficulties, pains and problems, and saying 'mine's worse' isn't going to make anyone's any better.

True, it's not always easy to remember this.  But I reckon we should at least try.

Oh my God.  That was just the sappiest post I've ever written.

A round of 'Kumbya,' anyone?

[Natkat]

tekla, I admire your compassion, in the respect that you completely acknowledge that fear of death can make people say things they might not otherwise have said.

But surely you can also understand that it's a natural reaction for members of a community to feel hurt when anyone, healthy or sick, erroneously accuses them of using up resources that could help sick and dying people.

We all have our trials, and of course we should try to understand that sometimes people say things out of hurt or anger or fear, but at the same time surely we shouldn't be allowed to unjustly vent our anger or fear onto targets that don't deserve it - targets who are facing their own trials, entirely separate, and so different that they can't possibly be held up against the trials of a person with cancer for someone to say - 'this one's better' or 'this one's worse.'   

The lady who commented on Chaz Bono's video seems to be in a lot of distress - she appears to be speaking emotionally and not entirely rationally.  There is an obvious logic behind her feelings - if you think about it in the simplest terms, it does seem unfair that people want or need to have healthy breasts removed in order to achieve quality of life, when others would give anything to have those healthy breasts.  What the lady, perhaps understandably, is missing, is that transsexual people don't actually have the impact she thinks on cancer surgery.

She also seems to be overlooking, or not grasping, the fact that though suicide might seem like a choice to those not suicidal, to the suicidal it is not so much a choice as a course of action that at the time seems like the only alternative to pain, which is why it is so vital that other alternatives to pain are offered for everyone - cancer patients, people with chronic back pain, people with mental illnesses, people who are born into wrongly gendered bodies.  Because surely this is what all humankind strives for - it's what she seems to be striving for - to find solutions and alternatives to pain so that life is bearable and, if we're lucky, even enjoyable and occasionally wonderful.

Her anger's mid-directed.  Perhaps she's really angry at chance, or fate, or a Higher Power, or irony, or happenstance, or coincidence, or simply the facts of life - whatever thing it is that makes one person despise their breasts and need to get rid of them and another person long for healthy breasts, or indeed makes one person wish desperately to have been born into a female body when another born into just such a body wishes desperately to be physically male.  But because of her distress she's directed her anger at the wrong target.

I wouldn't have the faintest idea what her prognosis is, but it's awful, just awful, that she has a potentially terminal illness.  But, she's alive at present, and I don't think it's necessarily acceptable that during her time on this Earth she should spread bad feeling amongst complete strangers who are simply trying to live their lives in the best way they can.

Whether we're dying or not, we all have humanity in common - shouldn't we all try to bear in mind that everyone's a person, with their own unique difficulties, pains and problems, and saying 'mine's worse' isn't going to make anyone's any better.

True, it's not always easy to remember this.  But I reckon we should at least try.

Oh my God.  That was just the sappiest post I've ever written.

A round of 'Kumbya,' anyone?

im not religious but AMEN

[Clive]

im not religious but AMEN

I'm not religious either but... bless you

I'm rather cringing at my post now, to be honest - it sounds really self-righteous and sickly to me, LOL!  But I suppose I meant all of it

[rensie]

Looks like the whole damn world prefers to walk around with their heads up their butt

[Stephe]

The person who posted that is just stupid. You can't fix that. I might have left out the get over yourself part but clearly to OP doesn't understand the difference between a plastic surgeon and an oncologist or surgeon that treats people with cancer. The people doing boob jobs aren't the same people doing cancer surgery.

[Jasper]

@Tekla - Completely agreed.

@Clive - I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you also.


Let that woman have her opinions, and let us have ours. We all come from somewhere different, and we can't possibly know where any other person comes from. We can't magically know whether she actually has cancer or is lying about it, but why does it matter? So what if she's completely wrong about the kinds of doctors that do these surgeries? She's made her point. As someone else (I believe Tekla said it) she could see it more like people who were born female are "giving up" healthy breasts or whatever when she could be willing to give anythingto have back what she has lost (or might lose in the future).

Imo.

[insideontheoutside]

Isn't it great that the same people who are spouting off about other people saying things are those ones who usually run around themselves saying that everyone should be entitled to their opinion ...

Right now, I'm sitting back with a bowl of pop corn and watching what I like to call the, "internet backlash" happen.

To the OP - would you say, "get over yourself" IF you were physically standing in front of a emaciated women who lost all her hair and doesn't have the money or insurance to do anything else but die? My guess is the answer would either be a sheepish "no" or a snotty "yes" (because you know that situation will most likely never present itself, and hey this is just the internet and we can all say whatever the fu*k we want because we're all entitled to an opinion).

People do and say awful things in the real world too, but the internet is like a no-holds-bared cage match where no one actually gets a scratch (or do they?) because it's all just words typed into a machine and then put out in "cyber space".

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone usually messes up on is seeing past their nose. Everyone is all about free speech and free thought and freedom to do what you want with your own body and myriad other "entitled" freedoms unless of course someone else has an opposing viewpoint, or you don't like what they say or how they say it - then it's pretty much an all out assault. And I'm not talking about healthy debate amongst thinking individuals expressing themselves.

Entitlement culture, misguided notions of "freedoms", random hordes, obsessive "fandoms" ... it's like the internet is the fuel for all these fires ... and I think enough of us are out there now with our single buckets of water, starting to give a sh*t about how ridiculous it's all become.

And I'm half as bad, because I'm anonymously posting on an internet message board. But I still have some tact, I still put some brain power into thinking, and I'm well aware of how the "backlash" is progressing where the internet mob of self-important, entitled twats are going to to screw up one too many times.

Do I think that there's plenty of people out there who have prejudice against trans people? Of course ... stupid question really. Everything that exists there's people out there that have prejudices - they're as wide spread as opinions as a matter of fact (and based on them). And if you're going to take every one of people's dumbass opinions on something to heart, you're going to spend your life angry and trying to fight futile causes.

Also, like Squirrel said, it's just plain bad "pr". It's like the internet "fandom" of trans ... everyone rallying to the cause to tear apart a single person who said something messed up. This is what the internet has bred ... angry mobs looking for a Frankenstein as well as disgruntled individuals who most likely would never have the guts to get in a real life, in your face confrontational knife fight of words. And no matter what "side" you think you're on, you still lose because both sides are doing the same crap.

Now, I really think it would be awesome if people could just accept gender issues, trans folks, gay folks, etc. etc. AND that there weren't people out there who have trouble getting life-saving surgeries. I really wish there was a freely available cure for cancer and blah blah blah. But, a long time ago I clued in on the real world and the people in it and had some thoughtful realizations, the first one being that since I'm not a charismatic cult leader I can't control anyone else but myself. I can set my own moral compass, but I can't set anyone elses. I can do what I think is the "right" thing to do. I can set my own personal boundaries. I have a lot of freedoms in my life and happily I think I'm a well-adjusted, functioning, caring, contributing member to society. And yes I have my opinions and spout off occasionally but I certainly do not buy into that poorly designed "entitlement" trap. Sometimes I actually shut the fu*k up about some things (or just keep them to myself) because I don't believe having the "right" to say anything to anyone any time should actually be enacted all of the time.

[Elijah3291]

Just saying why get so hung up over what a person online says (or yes even in the real world (Christ, I'm not 5 years old))  OR even worry so much about what you said was 'cruel' or not, who cares.

Also, my point about her lying is that she could just be using it to make you feel sorry for her so you automatically want to believe her point and feel like a dick for wanting gender reassignment surgery. That's why people are getting so defensive about it because it's working. Just because she may or may not have cancer doesn't mean she can say whatever she wants and we're not allowed to disagree with her.

Either way, I disagree that we need these surgeries 'as much' as someone with cancer. I find that to be a bit conceited. If you want to kill yourself because of your trans, that sucks, but cancer literally kills you whether you want to die or not.

I agree with this completely

You get what you give.  If you want respect, you best be giving it.  If you want people to believe you, you best believe other people.

Why give something that is completely pointless to feel if you wont even get it in return? I believe that if no one shows me understanding or empathy, then there is no need for me to do so in return.  Those are just things that I do not feel, so no, this random woman who I do not know at all says she has cancer and then becomes transphobic, nah I'm not gonna feel bad for her, or worry about her stuggle. I dont even know her.

[zombiesarepeaceful]

It's not a choice to be born trans.
It's not a choice to get cancer.
It's unfortunate that this person has to find a special doctor, but so do we, and we have to find the money, and go through all the hell and torment from others, and dysphoria, and etc, and they have to deal with cancer. Neither of us chose to have cancer or be trans. I would've given this ignorant person a piece of my mind and then some. Sometimes I hate everyone and everything for being born the right way, and I'd honestly rather be a biological man with any sort of cancer than be trans and deal with this crap. But We have our reasons for thinking as we do. I have the odd ability to see things from different perspectives and well...this person is in teh wrong...but...yeah. Whatever

[sonopoly]

I don't think you were cruel at all.  She was being ignorant and frustrated, I'm sure.  I mean, she probably feels that life is unfair because she has cancer.  If she knew more about transgendered people she would understand their needs.  I think you were good to stand up for yourself.  Maybe it would be even better if you could send her a personal message educating her comprehensively about how you feel, and that your issues are as deep as hers.  Maybe she's actually a decent person, who will open her mind, or maybe she's an ->-bleeped-<- who's narrow-minded, but that's what transgendered people are dealing with every day, I think.  I'm not transgendered, but I am a supporter and a sympathizer.

I think you were good to stand up for yourself and more should do so.  I know it's hard for individuals to do this in their personal lives, but I think if more mainstream people meet transgendered people and see that they are just like everyone else, they will be more accepted.  There will always be ->-bleeped-<-s, no matter what or who you are, but it would be nice if transgendered folks would be accepted by the majority of people.  Right now, they are not, because most people never encounter transfolks (that they know of), so they only think that it is bizarre and that something is wrong with you.

Keep fighting for yourselves and your rights.

[Bahzi]

Any sympathy was wasted on that lady, big surprise.   Another commenter had said:

I -3 chaz!!!

I am a bisexual female who in a relationship with an FTM and happily engaged! And to everyone out there..ignore all of the imature people and live your life. At the emd of the dau youre not tryn to make them happy youre not livin for them youre livin for you and take it from me..IT GETS BETTER


and the delilah woman replied

@jjduces - I'd love to know where you two freaky little lovebirds are going to get married. Since you'll have sex with anyone male or female you'll need to give up your slutty ways now. Remember, you are an engaged woman. IT GETS BETTER because waiting for you in bed is your female to male honeybunny. Correct me if I'm wrong but you both have vaginas and you have the boobs. That's going to cause a major problem because you do like a good penis once in a while. This marriage is doomed.


Yep, pretty disingenuous (and disgusting) to speak of this need for surgeons to be selfless and save women while telling other women what they need and want in a relationship and that they're sluts for being bisexual.  Judgement much?  That and the comments about Chaz's weight making him worthless piss me off far more than the transphobia, really.   The faux feminism makes me ill.   Men can be truly awful, no doubt, but they're clearly not all that's keeping women oppressed, not with attitudes like that coming from breast cancer survivors, of all things.

[sonopoly]

I totally agree with you, Bahzi.  I think there is a lot of faux feminism and faux Lgb in general.  It's strange to me that there is discrimination within discriminated groups.  For some reason, I've always been sympathetic to all minority groups, maybe because I am asian, and was discriminated against and I was always a feminist, but in a way that I thought women were equal to men, and nothing else. I just think that we are all equal, whether it's race, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever else presents itself.  As long as we all treat each other with respect, what else is there.  Why do people care what other people do, if it doesn't affect them?

I am really outraged by those who fight against gay marriage.  Why do they care?  I mean, it doesn't affect them in any way whatsoever or their children or grandchildren, so why are they so adamant against it that they are going to go out of their way to fight against it?  I just don't get it.  Ugh, I  could write a book (and maybe I will), but for now, I'm too tired to express all my opinions on this.

[bojangles]

She is not facing death or having a hard time finding a doctor. She said in her later post to Bahzi that her cancer had been cured by her outstanding doctor. She used the Big C to gain sympathy to make her voice louder. And it worked.


I am not a victim. I am a survivor. Yes, part of that path is reading stuff, including people. It tends to make them uncomfortable at times, but I don't care.