Would the SOC be any better if run by post-op trans-people ?

[Stephe]

Also I'm a competitive swimmer and swimming coach and I'm constantly in and out of change rooms, so being able to dress and undress without worrying about the consequences, however that did not really stop me before surgery. 

Hi,

Please take my comments in context with the subject of this tread. I'm not trying to be a smart alec either saying this.

I do NOT question that SRS is a huge change for some people in their happiness and ability to enjoy their life. The question here arose about the SOC RLE requirement for SRS and someone said it was cruel to ask someone to go through RLE before SRS.

My comment was related to this; how can RLE  be cruel when for this short period of time you are asked to live as a woman and just not display what's between your legs to others? You even noted "That didn't really stop me before surgery" which doesn't sound like it was cruel or an undo hardship. I have lived this was for years now and am REALLY happy, I can't see how this is a cruel test for people to go through.

Of course SRS improves people's lives for a variety of reasons, -that- isn't what was being discussed or questioned here. No need for post ops to list why SRS improved their lives, no one is questioning it. The -only- thing being questioned is: is asking someone to live full time for a while before surgery cruel? I say no. Others might say yes. I don't see how my comment on this has invalidated anyone.

[JungianZoe]

My comment was related to this; how can RLE  be cruel when for this short period of time you are asked to live as a woman and just not display what's between your legs to others?

The human experience is so varied that it can happen.  Maybe someone wants to go to graduate school, can't afford to take a month off, and wants to do surgery before the program starts?  There can be thousands of reasons someone doesn't want to wait because the time is simply right as of right now.  It may be nothing at all to do with showing what's between your legs or not.

If I had the money, you bet I'd want to do it right this minute.  How nice it'd be, if I could afford surgery and still have cushion funds to live on for a while, to do surgery right now during a period of unemployment.  I've only been full time for six months though.  I need a job now or I'm going to be homeless.  I don't have surgery money or rainy day funds anymore because my life savings are now gone.  And in the meantime, I've watched all my long-time friends get with someone and stop calling me or hanging out with me because I'm single.  Could I find someone?  I guess... but I'm a heterosexual woman who wants a heterosexual man, which is pretty damn unlikely to happen in my body's current state.  So I need surgery so I can start dating again, and then maybe my friends will want to see me again too because they don't seem to care about me anymore.

There are many reasons people can want surgery now... and many reasons it's cruel to make them wait.

[Ann Onymous]

There are many reasons people can want surgery now... and many reasons it's cruel to make them wait.

a point that the non-ops seem incapable of grasping.  But the fact that some of us with vaginae recognize that (having been through the process) seems to result in our voices not being important to these discussions...and it IS leading to the exodus elsewhere.

[cynthialee]

No one is attacking you Ann.

Just asking you to look at others situations before you make blanket statements.

As for post ops...Susans has a number of them here.

[Stephe]

  So I need surgery so I can start dating again, and then maybe my friends will want to see me again too because they don't seem to care about me anymore.

Your friends dump you because you're not dating anyone?

I'm just curious, you think you had a BF/date all your friends would call and come hang out again?

[JungianZoe]

Your friends dump you because you're not dating anyone?

I'm just curious, you think you had a BF/date all your friends would call and come hang out again?

Considering they've been ditching me to go out on double dates, say they have no time for me, and then tell me about all the evenings spent with their couple friends?  Yes.

And only one of my in-town friends has responded to any of my calls or texts in three weeks now and it's because her boyfriend is in Paris.  It's seriously getting old.

[Stephe]

Considering they've been ditching me to go out on double dates, say they have no time for me, and then tell me about all the evenings spent with their couple friends?  Yes.

And only one of my in-town friends has responded to any of my calls or texts in three weeks now and it's because her boyfriend is in Paris.  It's seriously getting old.

I guess my friends are different, I've been single for long periods of time and never run into things like this. Sorry they are treating you that way.

[Padma]

The CURE for transsexualism IS the surgery.  Everything else is ancillary.  And in that respect, I simply cannot fathom WHY someone would NOT want the cure for the medical condition...to live in an incomplete state is tantamount to not living at all.

I kneejerk-reacted to these statements yesterday, and posted a not-very-helpful response as a consequence. I've had more time since to ponder over why the above made me uncomfortable, and so I'm going to have a better go at explaining my response.

For me, the above statements could only hold true for someone who considers their gender dysphoria to be an illness/condition - because if you don't have an illness/condition, the concept of "cure" is redundant. And for me, I don't experience my dysphoria as an illness or condition - I experience it as an emotional and somatic response to a disability.

How it feels to me is that I'm female, but I was born with a physical disability that has forced me to spend my life "passing" as male. My desire for HRT and SRS is an expression of my desire to have corrective/cosmetic treatment for this disability, in order that I can live more normally. Like the muscles I was born missing, there's no "cure" for my missing genuine, functional female anatomy (or for my lack of a lifetime of socialisation as female); the current state of the art in medicine only allows for me to have my body tweaked so that it resembles my female body enough for me to be happy with it, and to live as I feel I'm supposed to live. That will have to do - and that will do, that will be enough for me.

I'm in no way writing this with an expectation that anyone else does or should feel the same way I do - and that's the point. If just I and the next person along who wants (or has had) SRS can want apparently the same thing, for such very diverse reasons on the basis of such different experiences of ourselves, then it's obvious to me that transitioning people in general want SRS (or don't want it) for an unimaginably vast array of different reasons.

My knee-jerk reaction to what you wrote was a knock-on effect of feeling lately that some people on Susan's, sometimes (on "both sides" of the argument for SRS being The Touchstone), are saying just this: "if you don't feel exactly the same as me about this, then you're clearly just either deluded or damaged." I'm no longer assuming that's what you were saying here, so I'm not reacting to you any more , but I wanted to explain where I'm at with this. I've said this before: we can't second-guess other people's motives (and I shouldn't have done so with yours).

[eli77]

Wow Padma, I know the point of your post was differences, but that's the closest I've ever seen to someone understanding it the same way I do.

[missF]

Back to the original topic... I understand that being post op per se is not a qualification to run the SoC, since the lack of medical training, etc etc... However, even though every life runs in through different paths, maybe the opinions and experience of post ops could be used to help evaluate a "new" case?

The psychiatrist who gave me my 2nd referral letter told me she thinks it's not the role of psychiatrists to decide if a person needs SRS or not (or was the hormone treatment? Don't remember now, but anyway). According to her, GID has been under the role of psychiatrists much more due historical reasons rather than medical reasons. She stated some very reasonable arguments to support that, but I don't remember them cause it was a year ago I had my consultation 

Regarding RLE, I can say that even though I was quite masculine in body appearance (still am?), it was a bless. (estradiol, I love you  ) More cruel than needing RLE before SRS (is it really cruel???) is to have RLE before HRT like happens in some other countries or how some gender therapists evaluate you. If such thing happened to me, I would have failed for sure and wouldn't be the happy post op woman I am now.

[Ann Onymous]

I kneejerk-reacted to these statements yesterday, and posted a not-very-helpful response as a consequence. I've had more time since to ponder over why the above made me uncomfortable, and so I'm going to have a better go at explaining my response.

For me, the above statements could only hold true for someone who considers their gender dysphoria to be an illness/condition - because if you don't have an illness/condition, the concept of "cure" is redundant. And for me, I don't experience my dysphoria as an illness or condition - I experience it as an emotional and somatic response to a disability.

a disability is, by its inherent nature, a condition.  Transsexuality is defined by the persistent need to have corrective intervention (I'm to lazy to go get the word-for-word definition as it existed when I started down this road all those years ago).  But because of the slap-downs I get if I try to expound upon that, I really cannot go into greater detail. 

A common thread amongst the former transsexuals who HAVE had the surgery has been the profound recognition of WHY some of us who came before them hold the opinions that we hold.  This is nowhere more evident than at another board that recognizes OUR right to speak our minds on the matter.  There are reasons why former transsexuals, having been cured and no longer being dissatisfied with their bodies, simply fade away into the backdrop and melt away into society as just normal everyday men or women, some straight, some bi and some lesbian or gay. 

My knee-jerk reaction to what you wrote was a knock-on effect of feeling lately that some people on Susan's, sometimes (on "both sides" of the argument for SRS being The Touchstone), are saying just this: "if you don't feel exactly the same as me about this, then you're clearly just either deluded or damaged." I'm no longer assuming that's what you were saying here, so I'm not reacting to you any more , but I wanted to explain where I'm at with this. I've said this before: we can't second-guess other people's motives (and I shouldn't have done so with yours).

If you go back and re-read the thread, you would find that I had posted in response to someone who effectively claimed that they saw no reason why someone would feel that SRS would help them meld into normal everyday life (you know, the essence of being full-time, having stripped away all facets of a former life).  The SoC was designed to address the needs of the transsexual.  It was not designed to address the needs of those that choose to be something else.  And given that the CURE for transsexuality is the medical intervention, culminating in a final irreversible, irrevocable, ever-after-effing permanent surgery, my follow-up comments to some in this thread were QUITE appropriate.

My feelings in the matter become even MORE appropriate when we look at the problems Zoe describes.  And yet she, even as a mod, seemingly gets taken to task precisely because she cannot have a normal life at this precise moment because of a condition for which she has not yet been able to obtain the cure.  Once cured, life becomes normalized...she is not stuck having to look for someone on the fringe of society but instead has a normalized dating pool from which to potentially select.  She then also has the same array of life activities that are available to natal women.  And THAT is precisely the end-game from which the transsexual hopes for at the end of the steps proscribed by the SoC, flawed as they may be...



 

[NatashaD]

How is Real Life Experience sick?

Just to that specifically: RLE might work fine for people that are not established in life, are short, are androgynous, etc. But for those that are over 6' tall and in jobs/situations/locations that are not necessarily T-friendly, an RLE is not really an option.

The thing to remember is that everybody's situation is different. When you force an RLE on a person that is decidedly male in appearance and/or is not yet in an environment where non-stealth is an option, you put a target on their back.

[Ann Onymous]

Just to that specifically: RLE might work fine for people that are not established in life, are short, are androgynous, etc. But for those that are over 6' tall and in jobs/situations/locations that are not necessarily T-friendly, an RLE is not really an option.

The thing to remember is that everybody's situation is different. When you force an RLE on a person that is decidedly male in appearance and/or is not yet in an environment where non-stealth is an option, you put a target on their back.

re: the bolded portion, I would opine that begs the question of just how that person expects to function in the corrected role to begin with...

[NatashaD]

My response is in relation to RLE prior to HRT.

An RLE should be part of the deal when it comes to SRS.

Sorry for the confusion.

[cynthialee]

re: the bolded portion, I would opine that begs the question of just how that person expects to function in the corrected role to begin with...

Without HRT many of us have no hope of passing durring RLE.
Personally I was not willing to go full time until I had a few months of HRT under my belt.
Now that I am past that, I can see that it would have served me much better to have waited until I had at least a year of HRT before I went full time.

[Ann Onymous]

My response is in relation to RLE prior to HRT.

An RLE should be part of the deal when it comes to SRS.

Sorry for the confusion.

gotcha. 

I'm not a fan of RLE as a requirement for HRT but I also believe in informed consent and am not opposed to the concepts of self-medicating provided that an individual gets periodic bloodwork done (far easier in this day and age than when I began HRT). 

Although, that being said, some of the same obstacles/impediments described are still going to exist for certain people...the sad reality is that SOME transsexuals are destined to be a walking stereotype, no matter HOW much HRT or surgical intervention they get. 

[Stephe]

If you go back and re-read the thread, you would find that I had posted in response to someone who effectively claimed that they saw no reason why someone would feel that SRS would help them meld into normal everyday life (you know, the essence of being full-time, having stripped away all facets of a former life).  The SoC was designed to address the needs of the transsexual.  It was not designed to address the needs of those that choose to be something else.

  Actually if you read what I posted in context, I posted that I don't see NEEDING to be post op to complete RLE in an uncruel manner.. I see no NEED for RLE for HRT. I never posted on this forum anywhere at anytime what you just said I did.

  Honestly I don't need help anymore with this stuff, I've been cured of my GID a while ago so now it's time to go enjoy my life.

I also realize I can't help if a few people like Ann believe I'm not a woman or that I live in an incomplete state that is tantamount to not living at all etc etc. But I do know it's not healthy to hang out in the same space online or in RL where this sort of narrow minded bigotry is condoned and supported. I had hoped in the ten years I have been absent from the online TG community that these old views would have disappeared. That it would have grown past the "I am not trans, you're not a real woman like I am because I have a vajajay and you don't". Sadly it appears some people still follow and believe this mantra. I'm just glad people in my life don't share this view.

I do pray these people eventually find peace and there is an end to this searching for whatever is still missing in their lives. But I've realized I have found the missing pieces in mine and somewhat selfishly don't see there being anything positive to gain from posting here anymore.

I do hope -everyone- can find the happiness and peace I have! I hope in my short time here I have opened some minds and eased a few people's lives as each of us looks for happiness.

[Shana A]

The original topic was "Would the SOC be any better if run by post-op trans-people ?".

Please keep discussion to OT, and refrain from personal attacks. Susan's is a diverse community, the right solution for everyone's struggle with GID is different for each of us, and no less valid.

[Ann Onymous]

I also realize I can't help if a few people like Ann believe I'm not a woman or that I live in an incomplete state that is tantamount to not living at all etc etc. But I do know it's not healthy to hang out in the same space online or in RL where this sort of narrow minded bigotry is condoned and supported. I had hoped in the ten years I have been absent from the online TG community that these old views would have disappeared. That it would have grown past the "I am not trans, you're not a real woman like I am because I have a vajajay and you don't". Sadly it appears some people still follow and believe this mantra. I'm just glad people in my life don't share this view.

I do pray these people eventually find peace and there is an end to this searching for whatever is still missing in their lives. But I've realized I have found the missing pieces in mine and somewhat selfishly don't see there being anything positive to gain from posting here anymore.

1) re: the bolded portion, its called a vagina.  Women have them.  They exist in locker rooms and bed rooms all around the world. 

2) we, the post-operative community, HAVE found peace in our lives.  It is those who would seek to 'other' us who are pissing us off to no end while at the same time driving us away.  Yet despite certain people who insist on trying to step on the last effing nerve, I don't recall any of the former transsexuals trying to call people out by name for beliefs we did not agree with...   

3) the more I see comments in this thread, yes, I do feel the SoC would benefit from the input of more post-operative people.  Input being the operative word (no pun intended) given that few of us are in the various medical fields but many are in fields tangential to the process and possess significant insight into both the personal and legal/extralegal issues that factor into the process.

[Shana A]

2) we, the post-operative community, HAVE found peace in our lives.  It is those who would seek to 'other' us who are pissing us off to no end while at the same time driving us away.

I am truly glad you have found peace in your life, and appreciate your considerable soul searching and effort to get there.

As an admin, what concerns me is when ANYONE 'others' ANYONE else here at Susan's, and I see too much of that going on.

Z