Yes, you pass. Ummm, no you don't.

[wendy]

Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

[Joeyboo~ :3]

Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

You spent 40K on surgery and all he noticed was that you gained weight(which is a negative thing)?
I'd be pissed.
You didn't mention him calling you ma'am... I mean... that sorta means you didn't pass.

[J R D]

I know I don't pass to everyone all the time, but I rarely get a weird look, even if its somewhere they are checking my id, which has my female name and pic, but still an M under sex, it also doesn't affect how they refer to me, so I really don't worry about it so much. I guess my presentation is good enough that either they think that its an error or they just don't care or notice.

I also work as a store clerk at a local convenience store, so a lot of locals know I'm trans, but most all respect my gender identity and the few that don't stopped trying to be asses about it. I just live my life, treat people with respect and have a nice, friendly attitude and have pretty much stopped worrying about it. A couple years ago, I never would have thought that I would be able to work that public of a job in this little town and be treated as well as I am. Even a lot of guys that know I used to live as a male use feminine terms of endearment with me. I think consistency with a female presentation has helped with that a lot since its been a long time since they've seen the old me.

As for the phone, even my boss's family members will confuse me with her when they call and I've been exclusively ma'amed on the phone and any intercom for a few years now. And often that helps when dealing with some companies as they tend to be more helpful now.

[AbraCadabra]

Yes I definitely pass!  It happened today! I even challenged person.

I have spent $40k on ffs and it looks nice.  I had a big nose feminized, chin reduced, brow bossing removed, and got a face lift to boot.  I put on a nice cap and dressed male.  Only makeup was concealer on scars under nose and chin.  Big moment had arrived.   

I went into bank and cashier asked for my drivers license which had my male face three years ago.   He approved transactions.  I said, "Wait! I do not look like that picture.  Look at it closely!"   He held picture to my face and studied it for at least 10 full seconds.  Finally he said, "Yes you have put on a little weight."  Cashier was correct I had put on 15 pounds in last three months after surgery.  That is all he noticed for $40K!

At least she did not ask if you had facial surgery... THAT may - or may not have been a compliment for your surgeon...

Some 3 month ago I went to "Home Affairs Department" (SA), for having my ID changed at (name & gender) ... the woman looked at my old ID picture still the one I have to use.
Looked at it again and asked me if I have had a nose job done... and smiled. Like nice new nose? :-)
Well, I only recalled having had a skin-cancer op on the right nose wing... that was some 3 year back. Free nose job?
I think it was also to do with HRT - who can tell.

The other thing with passing, it starts to move into the background of your mind. If you pass all the time - why bother to even think about it.
It's like a natal-female after a face-lift. She will also wonder for a while if she is passing for NOT having had a face lift...

Lastly at the Post Office 3 days ago, having to show my ID... the female behind the counter said... "but that's not you! ... can I see YOUR ID also please?"
I think she though it was my husband's :-)
I wouldn't mind HIM for my husband now. Such a nice man... bit grumpy he was, the poor thing. Who's to blame him :-)

So, I had my new pic taken for my new ID (still waiting for it) and so put one of those in the back of the ID book - just in case.
I showed it to her... she gave me a big shiny smile - and that was it.

Hugs,
Axélle

[El]

I got refused entry into a club once because the bouncer thought i was a 17 year old girl trying to get into the club with a 22 year old guys ID. Untill I put my dock workers voice on, then he went red and let me in lol

[Keaira]

I got refused entry into a club once because the bouncer thought i was a 17 year old girl trying to get into the club with a 22 year old guys ID. Untill I put my dock workers voice on, then he went red and let me in lol

You know, looking at your picture, If I heard a guys voice come out of that pretty face, I'd have been thrown for a loop too! 

[wendy]

I think that in a lot of cases the changes made by FFS are only visible to other MtF people. The average person in the street judges on gross characteristics and not the very minor changes that most FFS results in. I suspect a lot of passing goes on things like posture, movement and voice. Whether or not your chin to lip distance is 2" or 1.75" will simply not be noticed by people who, in most cases, barely notice if you are blonde or brunette.

Beverley

Beverly understood meaning of my post.  My blue eyes look more feminine than most genetic females and my big male nose is a nice female nose.  I missed my own chin for one month.  I would look in mirror and say, "Oh this chin is a mistake!"   Trans folks told me shape of face was much more feminine.  Cashier totally took me for a male after $40K on ffs.  He was totally nice to me.  But I was amazed that my drivers license from three years ago would pass so that I challenged him.  He studied it and after careful review said you gained some weight.  I actually started laughing and told him he was correct.

I was not nervous, angry, or upset.  However you can spend your life savings and if you can not accept yourself then no one else will.  If you can accept yourself and present in a feminine manner I know of friends that pass most of time and have big male noses and big male shoulders. As Miss Jane Alice astutely said we only show a picture.

[JenJen2011]

I think that in a lot of cases the changes made by FFS are only visible to other MtF people. The average person in the street judges on gross characteristics and not the very minor changes that most FFS results in. I suspect a lot of passing goes on things like posture, movement and voice. Whether or not your chin to lip distance is 2" or 1.75" will simply not be noticed by people who, in most cases, barely notice if you are blonde or brunette.

Beverley

So true!!! It's not until I grab a before picture and point out the differences that people see what I got done on my face, including family. Only my SO notices all the changes since we live together and he see's me everyday.

[Bishounen]

Sometimes, yes, the changes are quite subtil, as there may only be minor things needed to change. Often times, the surrounding in the subtil cases cannot put the finger on what has happened and wonders if the person have had a facelift or began a new diet or such.

Other times, however, the changes are very noticeable and have truly worked incredible miracles and left the patient forever thankful.

Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after; Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after;

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her!


As previously stated, only a few decades ago, these people would have been denied treatment, as full passability in the would-be Sex was acquired to be judged as appropriate for transition.
And in the event that they would still have been able to get their treatment, they would not have lead a too easy post-life, except maybe for the third girl counted from the top, as she initially had fairly androgyne features already, and she had probably been considered fairly beautiful, although her before-look cannot in any way be compaired to the amazing after-result.

[Stephe]

Most of these shots are from high angle, smiling, fem hair and with makeup after. Just makeup and a smile makes a HUGE difference. Honestly unless you have same expression etc you are comparing apples and oranges.

[Keaira]

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her!

OMG!  she turned out fantastically great! you're sure they are the same person right? I need FFS too now! *puts paper bag over her head*

[Bishounen]

Most of these shots are from high angle, smiling, fem hair and with makeup after. Just makeup and a smile makes a HUGE difference. Honestly unless you have same expression etc you are comparing apples and oranges.

I know you are trying to be nice and boosting peoples self esteem and hence pulls the "Natural is best" party line, which, in a way, is admireable, but at the same time, it is also a mocking of those people that truly suffered from their apparences to say that that only makeup and pretty hair would have done it, when anyone that is not blind can see that they, especially the older ones, literally looked like blokes before surgery. They looked like MEN.
If they had been lucky and learned makeup and hair, they could at the very best have passed for fairly "okay" Drag Queens, at most.

FFS are literally a lifesaver, and people that would have been doomed to a existence of mockery and isolation in the shadows of Society because of their looks, are now enabled to escape that fate and live a happy life in the open, as the persons they feel themselves to be instead of being mocked by the mirror aswell as the surrounding for the rest of their life.


It is not in their head, it is not because of makeup, it is not because of angles and no, all they have to do is not to "Just act female and the rest of the World will see them as women".

OMG!  she turned out fantastically great! you're sure they are the same person right? I need FFS too now! *puts paper bag over her head*

Oh yes, it is indeed the very same person!
She is as said a member on this very board, and I still cannot recall her name.
But with alittle luck she makes herself known if she sees this.

[mixie]

I disagree Bishouen when you say the looked like "MEN"  I don't agree at all.   This woman in particular looks completely female to me in the before picture.   In the after picture she looks very strange to me.  Her face looks very unnatural and she looks somewhat mentally ill.    The before picture the woman looks like an athlete and the after picture she looks like an aging woman.  She looks unhealthy.

These are just pictures of course but if you asked me who the woman was I would say her on the left.  I can't believe you chose this as an example. I do agree that there are awesome examples of women who have FFS.    But this definitely isn't one of them.  I think she looked better before.

[Bishounen]

I disagree Bishouen when you say the looked like "MEN"  I don't agree at all.   This woman in particular looks completely female to me in the before picture.   In the after picture she looks very strange to me.  Her face looks very unnatural and she looks somewhat mentally ill.    The before picture the woman looks like an athlete and the after picture she looks like an aging woman.  She looks unhealthy.

Totally untrue and also an extremely disrespecting thing to say that she, when she have achieved her goal, looks mentally ill just because she went against Political Correctness and chose the knife instead of looking like a bag of wrinkles, which she very apparently did not wish to do, whether she would have passed or not.

She looks way better in the after-pic.

These are just pictures of course but if you asked me who the woman was I would say her on the left.  I can't believe you chose this as an example.  I do agree that there are awesome examples of women who have FFS.    But this definitely isn't one of them.  I think she looked better before.

I really don't try to be difficult, but everyone on the board knows that you consider anyone as being "100% pass" as long as that person identifies as a female.
If that same person, on the other hand, would have looked exactly the same but had been a bio-female identifying as male, you would instead have said "100% Man".

[mixie]

Well i6's all relative isn't it?   I'm not saying my opinion is correct.   You have your view of what is attractive I have mine.   It is a bit disrespectful to say she looks mentally ill,   but i wasn't saying it in a disrespectful way or a snide way.  She actually looks sad and depressed to me in the after picture.  She doesn't look happy at all.   So I didn't mean anything more than that.   But in the before picture she looks like an energized healthy woman.   I do not agree at all that she looks better after.   Not at all.  And it has nothing to do with me not liking plastic surgery.  The last example in the set of pictures is an excellent example of beautiful FFS.

[Dahlia]

Sometimes, yes, the changes are quite subtil, as there may only be minor things needed to change. Often times, the surrounding in the subtil cases cannot put the finger on what has happened and wonders if the person have had a facelift or began a new diet or such.

Other times, however, the changes are very noticeable and have truly worked incredible miracles and left the patient forever thankful.

Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after; Before and after;

Before and after;
Before and after;

And, not to forget, our very own Susan's member who's name I have so very unfortunately forgotten for the moment;
I think that new broad on the right should be legally persecuted for doing away with that gorgeous guy on the left! Darn her!


As previously stated, only a few decades ago, these people would have been denied treatment, as full passability in the would-be Sex was acquired to be judged as appropriate for transition.
And in the event that they would still have been able to get their treatment, they would not have lead a too easy post-life, except maybe for the third girl counted from the top, as she initially had fairly androgyne features already, and she had probably been considered fairly beautiful, although her before-look cannot in any way be compaired to the amazing after-result.

The third one from the bottom....the elderly lady wearing a red top in the 'before picture' and a white top and a dark brown jacket in the 'afterpic'...

I don't think that's the same person. In 'the afterpic' her eyes look smaller (from a canthopexy?) her eyebrows are lower and her nosetip too and that's not because she tilts her face a bit forward in the afterpic and backwards in the before pic.
Besides that the 'after pic' looks photoshopped to me...

The first set of pictures show an excellent result but....from a really hideous before pic and a gorgeous afterpic in nice, dimmed light, make up, a smile and a good wig.
Not photoshopped because of the bad teeth in the afterpic.

[Bishounen]

Mixie: Ah well, you only stated your opinion, and while I can actually agree that her eyes did look more energetic in the before-pic, I yet must nonetheless disagree that she overall looked better.
She looked more natural, yes, but definitely not better or more beautiful.

And she very apparently did not think so herself, either, and she apparently did not like aging, either.
Perhaps, because many older MTF's simply have a lot of things they feel they have missed out on, hence not feeling at home with their mature bodies and wishing to turn back the cosmetical clock a bit.

Anyway, we simply have to agree to disagree.*shrugs*


Dahlia: The pic of the lady with the red top, are indeed the same in the after-pic, and is lifted from the website of Dr. Spiegel;

The photos below feature a handful of our patients before and after surgery.  Most photos are taken one day before surgery and within one year post-op.   Since Dr. Spiegel is able to customize each patient's surgical plan to help fit their aesthetic goals and their lifestyle no one surgery is alike.

The pics in question is to be found in the gallery below the text: http://www.drspiegel.com/ffs-surgery-photos/

[Keaira]

*muffled from inside her paper bag*

well, despite my opinion over a set of photos, I'm still probably not going to have ffs. if I did, I'd have my hairline moved down, although I am seeing new hair growth where I've never seen it before.
But maybe wider eyes would be nice. its part of why I like glasses. to me my eyes look small and beady.. like GW Bush's did on his face

[Bishounen]

*muffled from inside her paper bag*

Peekaboo!   Aaaw.. No need to hide like that!

well, despite my opinion over a set of photos, I'm still probably not going to have ffs. if I did, I'd have my hairline moved down, although I am seeing new hair growth where I've never seen it before.
But maybe wider eyes would be nice. its part of why I like glasses. to me my eyes look small and beady.. like GW Bush's did on his face

Well, it is only you that can decide what makes you the most happy, for that is the main point, what makes you the most happy. In other words, forget the surrounding and such matters and only focus on your own needs.
If you feel that you would much prefer to stay 'natural', than to have procedures such as FFS, then that is what you should do(Stay naturelle). If not, then don't.

However if you do decide to fix your eyes, you can give your glasses to Bush afterwards.

[Stephe]

I know you are trying to be nice and boosting peoples self esteem and hence pulls the "Natural is best" party line, which, in a way, is admireable, but at the same time, it is also a mocking of those people that truly suffered from their apparences to say that that only makeup and pretty hair would have done it, when anyone that is not blind can see that they, especially the older ones, literally looked like blokes before surgery.

First please don't tell me what I know and why I posted something OK?

And honestly the MAIN difference in most of the shorts is the have guys hair, zero makeup and are frowning. It's the same BS most plastic surgery sites do for GG's

They looked like MEN.
If they had been lucky and learned makeup and hair, they could at the very best have passed for fairly "okay" Drag Queens, at most.

We'll never know because these shots are SET UP to make them look dramatically different. I could take off my makeup, my wig etc, frown and no one would know it's the same person..

FFS are literally a lifesaver, and people that would have been doomed to a existence of mockery and isolation in the shadows of Society because of their looks, are now enabled to escape that fate and live a happy life in the open, as the persons they feel themselves to be instead of being mocked by the mirror aswell as the surrounding for the rest of their life.

Now you're saying unless you have FFS you are doomed. Sorry too many people here have lived full time without it and NEVER experienced anything like what you describe.