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[Kyriarchy] To those who pass completely: Empowered by female privilege?

Started by newkama_sanji, December 23, 2011, 06:32:41 PM

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newkama_sanji

Kyriarchy is "a neologism coined by Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza to describe interconnected, interacting, and multiplicative systems of domination and submission, within which a person oppressed in one context might be privileged in another. It is an intersectional elaboration of the concept of patriarchy—it extends the analysis of oppression beyond traditional feminism to dynamics such as sexism, racism, economic injustice, and other forms of internalized and institutionalized oppression."

My question is:

1. Have you ever felt empowered by the fact that, after becoming convincingly female and treated as one, you finally have the freedom to commit transgressions and subversions and not be judged as harshly than if you were a man? For example, you may now wear any clothes you've always wanted, jokingly touch a nipple of the opposite sex in public, go anywhere without being suspected as up to something, get a moderate amount of respect in male dominated spaces along with varying degrees of sexual advances (as opposed to the aggressive vibe men send off to each other), having younger skin, being able to exploit chivalry, and so on.

I understand that the opposite may be the case, specifically you may experience misogyny as differentiated to anti-trans bigotry. You may share that too.

[There are feminists hostile to the term "female privilege" as there are white people who oppose the term "white privilege". Although I align myself with the deconstructive feminism of Helene Cixous, I still believe that gender inequalities, though no doubt important, are not as severe as racial and political-economic ones, respectively (there are of course gender-biased economic inequalities, but in the context of transnational capitalism, women in developed countries are still way better off than men in the third world). Some female marginalization may have been the unintended consequence of the state of war, in which the child-bearing capabilities of females earn them the privilege of protection. This same honest intention to protect females is a target of feminist criticism, in which it is seen as a "protection racket". While some feminists lament the prostitution of widows displaced by war, the dead male soldiers are myopically merged with the spectre of patriarchy. This in no way undermines the serious and urgent insurgency against patriarchy--it is a vocalization of men who, faced with real political and cultural oppression by Other men, find liberation in becoming women.]
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Rabbit

I'm enjoying new benefits of becoming increasingly feminine... very very much :D

Even though I'm not convincingly female, I still have noticed a shift in how people interact with me.

For example, expectations and pressure to play in sports or do "guy stuff" has decreased drastically... girls are much more comfortable around me and freely talk about subjects they would never talk to with a guy friend... people react to me more friendly and smile more... my guy friends (and strangers) have even started holding the door open for me!

So, yup, I am enjoying moving away from "guy world" and shifting more feminine :)
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newkama_sanji

Quote from: Rabbit on December 23, 2011, 06:45:35 PM
I'm enjoying new benefits of becoming increasingly feminine... very very much :D

Even though I'm not convincingly female, I still have noticed a shift in how people interact with me.

For example, expectations and pressure to play in sports or do "guy stuff" has decreased drastically... girls are much more comfortable around me and freely talk about subjects they would never talk to with a guy friend... people react to me more friendly and smile more... my guy friends (and strangers) have even started holding the door open for me!

So, yup, I am enjoying moving away from "guy world" and shifting more feminine :)

Rabbit, thank you so much for this! I was afraid of triggering traumas of anti-trans violence, while I thought experiences of misogyny, although first-hand, might have a positive influence in one's understanding of the plight of women.

This made me happy!
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apple pie

Hmmm I'm not very into feminism so I don't really get the technical-sounding stuff, but...

Quote from: newkama_sanji on December 23, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
1. Have you ever felt empowered by the fact that, after becoming convincingly female and treated as one, you finally have the freedom to commit transgressions and subversions and not be judged as harshly than if you were a man? For example, you may now wear any clothes you've always wanted, jokingly touch a nipple of the opposite sex in public, go anywhere without being suspected as up to something, get a moderate amount of respect in male dominated spaces along with varying degrees of sexual advances (as opposed to the aggressive vibe men send off to each other), having younger skin, being able to exploit chivalry, and so on.

Why would I want to "jokingly touch a nipple of the opposite sex in public" (and does that mean male or female)? ??? and what do you mean by "go anywhere without being suspected as up to something"? Like going to shop for women's clothes? That's quite normal when you're a girl and it is not really a transgression is it... hmmmm I'm confused

The interactions I have with strangers, both men and women, are definitely quite different. And I do like that men treat me a lot more nicely now than before. However, I don't really revel in it consciously, nor do I exploit it. With friends it's not that much different, as I've always related to my friends emotionally (to me, that's what being friends has always meant). I also don't like any sexual advances towards me, though I tend to smile and say nothing instead of telling the guy off... though some guys don't get that I don't like it...
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stldrmgrl

Quote from: newkama_sanji on December 23, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
have the freedom to commit transgressions and subversions and not be judged as harshly than if you were a man

I cannot typically imagine a situation where a woman would be treated less harshly than a man.

Unfortunately, I have no comment on the intent of your post, as I am not full-time nor do I pass.
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newkama_sanji

Quote from: apple pie on December 23, 2011, 07:20:25 PM
Hmmm I'm not very into feminism so I don't really get the technical-sounding stuff, but...

Why would I want to "jokingly touch a nipple of the opposite sex in public" (and does that mean male or female)? ??? and what do you mean by "go anywhere without being suspected as up to something"? Like going to shop for women's clothes? That's quite normal when you're a girl and it is not really a transgression is it... hmmmm I'm confused

The interactions I have with strangers, both men and women, are definitely quite different. And I do like that men treat me a lot more nicely now than before. However, I don't really revel in it consciously, nor do I exploit it. With friends it's not that much different, as I've always related to my friends emotionally (to me, that's what being friends has always meant). I also don't like any sexual advances towards me, though I tend to smile and say nothing instead of telling the guy off... though some guys don't get that I don't like it...

I'm sorry I'm only just getting into critical theory literature myself, but this is more of a defensive stance against militant scholars who do not distinguish between "good intentions with unintended oppressive consequences" and outright evil.

To "jokingly touch a nipple" is as it is: jokingly  ^-^ I've had bad experiences with girls bullying me while growing up, from my sisters to my mother to my female classmates. Touching/pinching a nipple is an apt metaphor expressing stark gender differences  in a social space (the female nipple is sacred, while a man's is a joke; a woman has an unspoken physical freedom over men that would be considered sexual harassment when done by a man to a woman).

And the "usual suspect" paranoia I get that just because I'm a guy I can't be trusted with so many things. That I might steal and rape when nobody's looking. That the police will most likely keep an eye on me in the mall and in the streets.

As for "exploiting" chivalry, I would like to apologize that I've acquired quite a blind hatred against men in response to their collective attitude towards women (I worship women; which is why I hate feminists who inappropriately portray women as inferior to men in wrong contexts). I'm pointedly not a feminist who seeks gender equality but the imperialist-feminist poised to subjugate men under the rule of women. Which is why of all feminist theorists, I find Helene Cixous' lesbian love of her own female body very emancipating.

The "sexual advances" was a tongue-in-cheek contrast to imply that I'd rather have men hitting on me, than hitting me. (There are more male victims of violence than there are sexually abused women.)

I'm sorry that I am ignoring transwomen who have identified as women since birth, that I may be unintentionally reinforcing the notion of difference . If you're confused, then you're perfectly fine!

It's just that my "being a woman" is a materialized history of a man's desire to become a woman, thus the freedom to wear female clothes as a female, though it should be normal as you are now female, is at the same time a celebration of your past as a man. It's like you're rich now, and you can buy the things you've always wanted when you were poor. It's like you're equal to white men now, but you were once a marginalized woman of color. But if you never identified as a man in any way before, then this should not apply to you  ^-^
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newkama_sanji

Okay, let me just share my own experience of "female privilege" in a rather problematic context: being treated like a princess in my testosterone-infested college fraternity.

I shall be blunt and claim that this "privilege" is nothing but a condescending affirmation of my lack of muscular strength and aggressive behavior (towards people outside my small social circle), and, for we've known each other for years, the adapted acceptance of my effeminate nature. (I understand that this is the same issue addressed by feminists on said "privilege"--but! Using Marxist theologist Ernst Bloch's principle of hope, this perceived "weakness" can be utilized to open opportunities of emancipation.) The environment is assaulted relentlessly with homophobic humor, but I don't mind; self-deprecation is a bad habit of mine and I excel at it.

It is an indisputable propensity of a human to feel protective of any attachment. Just as parental instincts induce animals to fight a predator threatening their young, even an alphamale can be brought to his knees in retarded adoration of a kitten. The qualities that trigger this instinct are called neoteny, or the recognizable collective traits belonging to young animals (this includes the childlike behavior of senile octogenarians). In my fraternity, I don't have to literally and figuratively carry my own baggage like a man--I just order my minions friends around if they haven't already volunteered for the honor. There are exceptions, but most of them seem to have the gentleman nurtured in their genes!

When a classmate tries to tease me from across the hallway, I tell my goons to "Fix him" and they act accordingly. All theatrical of course. All in good fun. Maybe these are little--even insignificant--things to you, but since this is my daily reality it means the world to me. Not some abstract statistical family resemblance category of what group of people is entitled to a moral highground.
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lilacwoman

Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 23, 2011, 07:30:50 PM
I cannot typically imagine a situation where a woman would be treated less harshly than a man.

Unfortunately, I have no comment on the intent of your post, as I am not full-time nor do I pass.


amazing comment!  surely you have heard of pretty women being let off minor traffic faults by smiling nicely at cops?

female privilege is lovely.   
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lilacwoman

actually I chat regularly with a guy married to a FtM who is senior policewoman and though she is better shot and much senior to them the men she goes on stakeout with are very protective of her even though she tries to be the leader they guard her like she's the pack mother.

Karl Marx shudda been a crossdresser and then he'd have gotten things right.
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newkama_sanji

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ByeBye

It would be nice to be able to not be seen as an agressor, but I'm not physically becoming a woman for evil purposes, I'm physically becoming a woman for good purposes.
♥   I'm like an egg that is hatching into something great :)
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newkama_sanji

Quote from: ~~BebeLyss~~ on December 24, 2011, 08:03:34 AM
It would be nice to be able to not be seen as an agressor, but I'm not physically becoming a woman for evil purposes, I'm physically becoming a woman for good purposes.

Good girl  :-*

The only way to live for me is to offer my kindness to the world that has given me so much more than it has taken away. I simply have a skewed view of women: I think they're superior to men. And I wish to possess and express that power. It would "look" more evil to do the opposite and empower men instead, amirite?
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stldrmgrl

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 24, 2011, 06:35:10 AM
amazing comment!  surely you have heard of pretty women being let off minor traffic faults by smiling nicely at cops?

female privilege is lovely.

Few and far between, and certainly nothing specific comes to mind at this time.
Oh, and just in case, no worries on digging up stories to prove your point; I am not interested.
I do not want "female privileges" and I certainly do not support any of such regarding legal aspects.
Lastly, might I recommend you drop your sarcastic remarks when such remarks are unprovoked, thus uncalled for.
You are not amusing.
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lilacwoman

Quote from: stldrmgrl
Lastly, might I recommend you drop your sarcastic remarks when such remarks are unprovoked, thus uncalled for.
You are not amusing.
/quote]

there isn't an iota of sarcasm in my response.   it is pure statement of truth.   truth does annoy so many people.   I don't try to be amusing.  I do use irony.  irony does so annoy so many people.

I still really can't believe you have never seen any female privilege.  that really is amusing.
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Julian

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 24, 2011, 06:38:24 AM
actually I chat regularly with a guy married to a FtM who is senior policewoman and though she is better shot and much senior to them the men she goes on stakeout with are very protective of her even though she tries to be the leader they guard her like she's the pack mother.

Please be careful with gendered pronouns. An FtM is a man, and I think it would be polite to use masculine or gender-neutral pronouns until/unless indicated otherwise.
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fionabell

YES. Totally. Brilliant thread. Good to see some honesty for a change ;D
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fionabell

Quote from: newkama_sanji on December 23, 2011, 09:30:12 PM
Okay, let me just share my own experience of "female privilege" ...

....It is an indisputable propensity of a human to feel protective of any attachment. Just as parental instincts induce animals to fight a predator threatening their young, even an alphamale can be brought to his knees in retarded adoration of a kitten. The qualities that trigger this instinct are called neoteny, or the recognizable collective traits belonging to young animals (this includes the childlike behavior of senile octogenarians). In my fraternity, I don't have to literally and figuratively carry my own baggage like a man--I just order my minions friends around if they haven't already volunteered for the honor. There are exceptions, but most of them seem to have the gentleman nurtured in their genes!

When a classmate tries to tease me from across the hallway, I tell my goons to "Fix him" and they act accordingly. All theatrical of course. All in good fun. Maybe these are little--even insignificant--things to you, but since this is my daily reality it means the world to me. Not some abstract statistical family resemblance category of what group of people is entitled to a moral highground.
I just read this.

Actually I think you are experiencing what it commonly known as "The little Hitler/ Napoleon ringleader privilege". This occurs when a sneaky man of diminutive stature has the cleverness and guile to build up a social following of thugs. The thugs get to feel powerful because the little Hitler has the wit to humiliate anyone that defends themselves against their social marauding by means of aggressive verbiage. In return the little Hitler gets a bodyguard which stops people from pounding him when he pushes them too far.

;)

I agree that as females we do get privileges unknown to men. However, a girl could not socially get away with your aggressive gang building campaign.   
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Annah

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 24, 2011, 06:38:24 AM
actually I chat regularly with a guy married to a FtM who is senior policewoman man and though she he is better shot and much senior to them the men she he goes on stakeout with are very protective of her him even though she he tries to be the leader they guard her him like she's he's the pack mother father.
fixed.

You're trans....i'm shocked  you would have said it like that...as you know how important pronouns can be to us.
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Annah on December 24, 2011, 09:52:50 PM
fixed.

You're trans trolling....i'm  shocked  you would have said it like that...as you know how important pronouns can be to us.

Fixed
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valyn_faer

Ciswomen receive drastically lesser sentences for committing the same crimes as men. There's quite a bit of statistical information on this. This is just one of many, many examples of female privilege. If you're looking for more, you might want to read some of Warren Farrell's books, or Norah Vincent's book Self-Made Man. The fact that cismen have privilege and power over ciswomen in certain ways does not preclude the possibility of ciswomen having power and privilege over cismen in other ways. The analysis of gendered power that feminism has given us is, unfortunately, overly simplistic. Furthermore, the relationship dynamic and power dynamic between ciswomen and cismen is not the same as the relationship and power dynamic between the rich and the poor, or white people and black people, and this is partially because heterosexuality, which is characterized by an attraction of difference, is not only the norm, but is institutionalized in many respects. This is not the case for race and social class. Feminists were wrong to say that women are oppressed by men in the same way that the poor are oppressed by the rich, and the way black people are oppressed by white people. (Keep in mind that feminism has very rarely addressed the trans community and when they speak of women's oppression they are referring to ciswomen, not transwomen. When feminism has addressed us, they have treated us with indifference at best, hatred and malice at worst, or have used and exploited us for the benefit of ciswomen and ciswomen feminists. There are very few feminist scholars who have supported us or respected us in any way shape or form.) I could literally write a book on the differences between the relationship and power dynamic of ciswomen and cismen, and the relationship and power dynamic of every other more privileged majority group and their corresponding disadvantaged and/or oppressed minority group.

Also, I think what you're not taking into consideration is that there are two sides to a trans person's social interaction. One, how we see ourselves; and two, how others see us. I am a transwoman and have been my entire life. However, socially, throughout most of my life, people have seen me and interacted with me as if I were a man. As I transition, from my perspective, I go from being a transwoman who looked like a man, to, hopefully, a transwoman who looks like a ciswoman. (Although, even this is problematic as there are butch ciswomen who look like men.) This means that, from an outside perspective, it may seem as though I'm transitioning from a man to a woman. However, this is an oversimplification. If I ever get to the point where I'm perceived to be a ciswoman, socially, then I will gain the privilege and power that ciswomen have that many transwomen do not have. (Although, even then this power will be tenuous and only to the extent that I'm not found out to be trans.) The underlying issue here is one of social intelligibility, and it is one that is often overlooked.
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