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Is there any proof that we have a soul?

Started by fionabell, December 27, 2011, 06:15:22 PM

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Jennifer

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 28, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
Is there any PROOF that we do NOT have a soul?

Is there any PROOF that I do NOT have an invisible dragon in my garage?

Jennifer
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AbraCadabra

Quote from: Jennifer on December 28, 2011, 09:01:36 AM
Is there any PROOF that I do NOT have an invisible dragon in my garage?

Jennifer

You got it, didn't you :-)

In the end it's about PERCEPTION and WORDS and CONCEPTS.
In case of questions consult F. W. Nietzsche ...

Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) If one can 'dance' ones got soul ! If one has got 'two left feet'[can't dance] ones got no soul !  This should be proof enough !  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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fionabell

#23
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 28, 2011, 09:11:28 AM
You got it, didn't you :-)

In the end it's about PERCEPTION and WORDS and CONCEPTS.
In case of questions consult F. W. Nietzsche ...

Axelle

Axelle honey....research has shown dogs don't have souls...

Quote" The instant life ceased the opposite scale pan fell with a suddenness that was astonishing – as if something had been suddenly lifted from the body.  Immediately all the usual deductions were made for physical loss of weight, and it was discovered that there was still a full ounce of weight unaccounted for".

QuoteDr. MacDougall conducted the same experiment on 15 dogs.  The experiments showed no change in weight following their death.  MacDougall concluded that this may signify only humans have souls.

LINK: The 21 gram soul theory

Modify new link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29

I'm sorry honey :icon_hug: :-*
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Pica Pica

God I HATE Nietzsche, poor poet posing as poor philosopher, anyone who makes Schopenhauer look cheerful.

Oh, and 'I think therefore I am' - Cogito Ergo Sum, is Descartes.

- There have been many interesting experiments to try and trap the soul, or measure it. The weighing ones being one of my most favourite. I read a really interesting and readable look at these experiments in a book called 'Six Feet Over' by Mary Roach.

My Dad, who used to be an undertaker and is now a pastor, says that he thinks that the soul is obvious when seeing an alive person then a dead person. Now, I felt this was nonsense, that the difference is in the way a living person holds themselves, even in repose to the way a dead person cannot hold themselves.

However, then I saw my Granny's corpse and there was that real sense that she was gone, that the spark that made that flesh my Granny and not just some meat was absent. I would name this spark 'life' rather than 'soul' though.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Lily

I thought people weighed less when they died because bodies tend to void their bowels right after death.
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fionabell

Did you look at the link? I'm sure they covered all variables. It was a proper scientific study. One hasn't been done again because obviously it's quite inhumane to the test subjects.
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Anatta

Quote from: fionabell on December 28, 2011, 09:06:36 PM
Did you look at the link? I'm sure they covered all variables. It was a proper scientific study. One hasn't been done again because obviously it's quite inhumane to the test subjects.

Kia Ora Fiona,

::) So are the scientists who carried out these test on the poor dogs 'soulless' ?  The link doesn't work BTW...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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AbraCadabra

Nietzsche was a lot about perception... Schopenhauer a chauvinist... though I'm just fine with both of the.
I'm also sure both had 'soul'... though not too sure about Herr Hegel, I think he might have had "two left feet..." i.e. soul-less, but by all meant NOT lifeless :-)

Hm,
Axélle
PS: we are getting this 'soul proof' thing going now, don't we?
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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fionabell

Quote from: Zenda on December 28, 2011, 09:36:12 PM
Kia Ora Fiona,

::) So are the scientists who carried out these test on the poor dogs 'soulless' ?  The link doesn't work BTW...

Metta Zenda :)

Thanks Zenda   

Try this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29

In regards to the dogs it was only cruel because they actually poisoned them. :o
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Cindy

The moment of death is quite stunning. The change from living to not living in virtually any animal is enough to make people think of souls, but as pica pica said, it is the loss of life, not the loss of the soul.

Mind you it doesn't seem to matter to the dead. I've never heard of any coming back to tell us that there is they are 'souls'.

Oh dear have I been provocative again :embarrassed: I'll stand in the corner and smile. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy
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AbraCadabra

Well hon plants do live also - and die... that means we just the same then?

Something tells me: "Not so"
But then that's just me.

BTW I do not relate 'soul' to any of the religious notions, yet I have a VERY clear perception if something being soul-less and dead, and something being vibrant and filled with 'soul' and alive (in spirit), even if the person having created it is long dead and gone.

Now how about THAT?
Axélle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Cindy

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Amazon D

Quote from: Cindy James on December 29, 2011, 01:29:26 AM
The moment of death is quite stunning. The change from living to not living in virtually any animal is enough to make people think of souls, but as pica pica said, it is the loss of life, not the loss of the soul.

Mind you it doesn't seem to matter to the dead. I've never heard of any coming back to tell us that there is they are 'souls'.

Oh dear have I been provocative again :embarrassed: I'll stand in the corner and smile. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy

That is the point of my post. Many educated people just block out of their minds the connections many of us do get from those who have passed on to the next world.

I have been guided many times in my travels to make certain turns or pick up or drop off people (hitchhikers etc) and so many times i could have been murdered but i wasn't. There is no way all of that was my doing besides i am one who longs to be in the next world but the next world wants me here to tell others about them.

I try to tell people and well all i can do is show by example that i worry not for all things here on earth but for love as that is what we should live for. So in your case Cindy you do seem to not worry (but you do care) for all things here on earth and you have much love but you seem to have a mental block of understanding or acceptence of the next world..

It will happen just keep your mind open

hugs Danielle  :angel:
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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spacial

If we remove all of the extras, which no-one seems capable of agreeing upon anyway, the answer boils down to 50/50. There either is or there isn't.

Is: That it is part of human existence. That every human community, including those that have been cut off from the rest of humanity, since very earliest times, have an awareness of the soul. It is entirely consistent, a single feature that occurs repeatedly in every system of belief that has emerged.

Isn't. Humans are deeply aware of their existence. Examinations of very young humans, seems to indicate that they are almost incapable of comprehending others as external from themselves. Even when mature, it is difficult for us to comprehend that the world can exist if we don't. So, we invent the notion of our own continuation beyond death.


  • There are a number of groups and individuals who then seek to embellish their chosen option with dogma, invariably designed to suit their life experience.

  • The sexually inhibited will design a belief system that incorporates levels of modesty that go beyond personal convenience. Most people cover themselves, but some groups say that nothing should be exposed, while others simply cover the genitals.

  • Hierarchical societies generally have systems based upon regulations and restrictions according to social class.

  • Many will incorporate rituals for allocating sex partners, even the act itself.

  • Some claim to have superior intellectual or spiritual guidance. From time to time, people emerge claiming special communication with a higher being. Others claim to have backing of some system of rational thinking, science, metaphysics. The consistent element here is that these are ultimately unverifiable.
After death: Almost every group claims that penalties and rewards exist for those that correctly adheir to their dictates.

The 3 most common are,


  • Paradise, aptly defined by Nietzsche as a compensation in the next life for sacrifices in this one. (Or something to that effect).

  • Hell, a sort afterlife entertainment for a god that presumably takes pleasure in seeing those it doesn't like, squirm.

  • Waste of your time, most recently purported by those that are making a pitch for personal importance, claiming science is more than a tool to understand the tangible.

I have to say, that the most preposterous of the recent religious movements is the scientific atheism. Many of these people claim very high academic honours, yet apply the exact same deceptions that the religious types do.

That it can all be explained by science. It can't.

I recently watched a short TV program from Stephen Hawking where he claimed that the entire universe and everything in it has been proven, by science, to have been created out of nothing. That, sadly, for Mr Hawking, is not proof of the non-existence of the soul. Or for that matter, a god. He claimed that, since science has demonstrated that the universe has been created out of nothing, then there is no need for a god.

The question arises, is there a need for Stephen Hawking?


  • Even if we do know, for absolute certainty, that this is how the universe was created and exists, that does not negate a god. Or a soul. Or, for that matter, the truth or otherwise of any specific belief system.

  • That those that disagree don't understand the science. (Those that disagree with the authority of the Pope, don't understand the Bible, which we keep written, in an obscure, dead language so no-one can read it anyway. Then we burn to death any that try. sort of argument. Get's 'em every time). Hawking and his fellow scientific atheists are falling into the same trap that was so willingly occupied by other religion based tyrants. They, however, didn't have nuclear bombs!
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Amazon D

If it was created out of nothing that would mean that God did create it


Besides who is always talking to me and telling me what choices i should make in life???

That surely isn't me because i know whenever i made choices i made the wrong ones .. well except for a few much needed choices which i did get help from above  :angel:
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Jennifer

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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) This debate could go on for ever and we would be still none the wiser because no one as set a guideline as to what is meant by 'soul' ? Is it the immortal soul as in the Christian belief system-the thing that either goes to heaven or hell ? Or the Hindu definition of a soul [and often adopted new age belief] that is continually reincarnated? [Bearing in mind reincarnation is not the same as the Buddhist concept of rebirth] ...

::) If this is the case then  how can one expect to use science to prove or disprove a faith based concept? It wouldn't be 'faith' based if science could prove or disprove it !

::) In other words, what can be asserted without proof,[Yes we have a soul] can just as easily be dismissed without proof [No we don't have a soul]!

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Amazon D

Quote from: Zenda on December 29, 2011, 04:25:09 PM
Kia Ora,



::) If this is the case then  how can one expect to use science to prove or disprove a faith based concept? It wouldn't be 'faith' based if science could prove or disprove it !




Metta Zenda :)

ditto
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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spacial

Quote from: Jennifer on December 29, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Is there any scientific proof?

Jennifer

Science can't work with the intangible any more than a spatula can cut bread. The tool is simply inappropriate.

The issue of scientific proof for all things is, frankly, a fraud. Science can't prove anything that can't be measured.

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