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Hostility towards non-binary in trans communities

Started by saint, January 21, 2012, 04:27:41 AM

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0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

suzifrommd

I'm resurrecting this dormant thread because it looks like the place to discuss what to do about the support group in my area. It's supposed to be for anyone with gender identity issues, and they make a point at meetings of saying that everyone is welcome.

But the only people that actually come (other than me) are transitioning MtF's. They are very nice to me, but don't seem to want to accept that I'm non-binary. Several times at last week's meeting I heard things like "we all said we weren't going to transition" and "we were all where you were at one time" and other hints that lead me to believe that they're reasonably certain I will end up transitioning.

I won't. Yes, I'd like to become a woman. Emphasize the word "become". Unlike MtF's either pre- or post-transition, I am not already a woman, and transitioning won't make me one. I am neither completely male, nor completely female. Since no body will match how I identify, I'm planning to stick with the one I've got.

Do I try to explain this to them and hope they'll back off? Or do I decide this isn't the group for me?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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justmeinoz

My stance is unchanged.  I have no right to tell others what to do, and won't tolerate them telling me how to be.  Whatever floats your boat is cool.  End of subject, and if anyone wants to really argue I will see them out back with a Stilson wrench in hand.  >:(

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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dalebert

It seems an undo amount of peer pressure to me, as if they are looking to you to help validate their decisions. Their decisions don't need validation, of course, but that's not an unusual reaction when society tries so hard to invalidate our personal decisions.

aleon515

I assume it's why I am rather welcome in the transsexual ftm forum as they assume that I am *really* ftm. Actually the thought has crossed my mind as well. Since some ftms might go thru a period of relating as androgynous or genderqueer, I suppose we can assume that there are a lot of people (relatively) who go this way.

I've been finding out as I explore this though that there are rather many female characteristics (if I understood this, which I don't) which I identity with.

As for the hostility, I haven't actually experienced it. I am guessing I will.

--Jay Jay
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Ariel

Yeah I admit I am waiting for that other shoe to drop in general... "if you don't want to transition then you're actually just a woman" or some variation thereof. And part of that comes from my own confusion, regardless. But I've seen enough bigotry toward bisexual people in from homosexuals to understand that, yes, marginalized people can get just as judgemental as everyone else.

The thing is that some of it, I think, comes from ignorance... people say how much "better" it must be to be bisexual, because one has more options... when really for me it means that no single partner will have everything I want. It's both, not either/or.

I'm still wrapping my own head around the non-binary thing... honestly mostly wrapping my head around what of what I'm experiencing is allowing myself to feel this way, and what will stay and what will fade. I guess I don't blame other people, especially people deeply invested in a binary identity, for not getting it. I just wish the default was always respect.
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Just Kate

Quote from: dalebert on June 01, 2012, 09:55:03 AM
It seems an undo amount of peer pressure to me, as if they are looking to you to help validate their decisions. Their decisions don't need validation, of course, but that's not an unusual reaction when society tries so hard to invalidate our personal decisions.

That is exactly what they are doing.  It is pretty common among other TG support groups in my experience.  It isn't so much you need to follow the binary, you just need to do things the "right" way, or in other words, the way they did them.  Doing so validates the choices they made in getting to where they are.  Doing something different invalidates them and can cause them to become defensive or patronizing.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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justmeinoz

Personally, and I can't really comment validly on anyone else's experiences, the question I tend to ask on meeting someone is are they a person I would enjoy the company of?  On the principle that nature loves diversity, if they are different to me, that just adds to my knowledge of people.  If after a time they prove to be then I consider them a friend, and their gender presentation will be neither here or their.  They might have problems with my situation, so it cuts both ways.  It is no different to me having straight male friends, even though I am a lesbian.

If there is a connection I might then consider a relationship. I have no emotional or sexual interest in cismen, but anyone else is a possibility.  At that point I would be more interested in their feelings towards me.

Karen.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Metroland

I used to hear about trans people bullying non-binary and androgynes and wouldn't believe it, but it happened to me very recently.  Trans people do not understand us and I guess they are dealing with androgyn and non-binary phobia.  I was threatened because of it.  However welcoming this place is, it is still "Susan's Place, Transgender Resources".
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Brooke777

I don't understand how people who do not fit into "social norms" can discriminate against another person who doesn't "fit".  I would think that they would be able to relate to that person all the more.  People just need to be true to themselves.  No matter what that means.  Sorry, I guess I am just a bit ignorant in this area.
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Padma

The 'not tolerated' can often be quite intolerant. You see this in many, many minority groups, that they themselves have another minority group they dislike. I think it comes out of fear and insecurity. It's like the unpopular kids in the school playground not wanting to be seen with the more unpopular kids.
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Brooke777

Makes sense.  I still don't like it, but it makes sense. This would go well in the "Racism" thread that was started.
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Jamie D

Quote from: justmeinoz on June 01, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
My stance is unchanged.  I have no right to tell others what to do, and won't tolerate them telling me how to be.  Whatever floats your boat is cool.  End of subject, and if anyone wants to really argue I will see them out back with a Stilson wrench in hand.  >:(

Karen.

You're going to hit them with a cheese??

Oh! Sorry. "Stilson" not "Stilton."
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Jamie D

#32
Quote from: Metroland on June 02, 2012, 12:12:36 PM
I used to hear about trans people bullying non-binary and androgynes and wouldn't believe it, but it happened to me very recently.  Trans people do not understand us and I guess they are dealing with androgyn and non-binary phobia.  I was threatened because of it.  However welcoming this place is, it is still "Susan's Place, Transgender Resources".

I feel very lucky to have found this safe and accepting site to explore my own androgeny.  I would still be lost in the wilderness without it.

Androgynes do transcend stereotypical gender norms.
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Padma

It's been my experience that many people who are unconventional in one area of their lives (whether sexuality, gender, or whatever) are still very conventional otherwise. I've found, for example, that most of the trans women in my area are inclined towards presenting as very conventional heterosexual women, and are uncomfortable with me having a more androgynous, dykey presentation. But they are not unwelcoming, we just don't 'get' each other, and I long for trans and genderfluid friends who are more like me. I've found a lot of people here on Susan's that I can relate to much more easily (this is the advantage of having many thousands of users, more diversity!) as well as many people who don't 'get' me and do appear to have very conventional views on what makes 'a man or a woman'. So it goes.
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Brooke777

I dont know anyone face to face that is trans, or gender fluid. I wish I did. Maybe someday.
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Brooke777

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:

A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.

B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.

But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.

I am really sorry you feel like that. Try and remember, not all non-binaries fit into the groups you described.
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Edge

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
It goes against everything I believe in too. I can understand why you think that though. When I first found out about genderfluid people, I was pretty excited because I thought there were more people like me out there. However, the more I looked around, the more I found people who kept talking about the friggin social roles. That's when I started freaking out about it and I haven't quite stopped freaking out yet.
It is not a choice. I do not consider this confusion fun. I hope to get used to it and be able to enjoy it, but the fact still remains that I didn't choose this.
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aleon515

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:

A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.

B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.

But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.

I can't answer for A as I don't exactly understand it. The other thing is that it is something you feel which I can't really address. Perhaps it's since I am bio-female-- I look not so female, does that negate you in some way. Or let's say for MAAB that they could still identify as partly male. Again as I say, I don't understand this.

As for B. I do NOT see this as a choice for ME. I did not wake up and decide one day to be androgyne. I *am* this way, just as you are (I don't know how you want to be addressed) a woman. I do NOT see this as some personality type, disorder of personality, or choice of any sort. The choice I have (and you as well) is in how I *present*. You could choose to present any no of ways from ultra feminine to somewhat boyish to lots of things in between. But what is between your ears, that's what's important.

BTW, Edge, I have an interest in the "friggin' gender roles, presentation, etc etc". I have a sort of intellectual bent (okay I'm a nerd :)) but it doesn't make this anything like a choice, just because I want to talk about these things.


--Jay Jay
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Sephirah

Mutual respect. The key word being mutual.

In fairness, I don't think it's entirely one sided. Sometimes it seems as though there are views among some non-binary individuals that, as a group, people who view their gender as binary are relics of a bygone age, archaic in their thinking and limited in their perception, and that non-binary identification is heralded as a new dawning of humanity. It doesn't take a great deal of looking to see how that can rub people the wrong way just as much as the skeptical views of some binary identified people about the existence of any identification outside the binary model.

The need for some people to live as part of the binary is often as little understood by non-binary people as the reverse is for binary identified people.

Acceptance of others comes partly with acceptance of oneself, but also with the understanding that what makes some people one thing, and some another, is neither better, nor worse - neither less nor more valid - just different. And, if not seeking to understand, then at the very least respecting and embracing these differences free from prejudice and with an open mind - knowing that what makes your neighbour who they are contributes no more and no less to your own internal makeup than them eating a heavy meal would give you heartburn.

This can only be achieved when everyone shares one commonality - the understanding that all people have equal right to an identity, be that binary or non-binary.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Jamie D

How'd you get so smart, Seph?  Book learnin' or 'sperience?

Anyway, I have an ongoing, raging, internal battle everyday as to which aspect of my psyche is going prevail.

I spent nearly 40 years trying to conform to a binary role, ultimately without success, and I believe, to my own detriment.  I think I have a good understanding of the gender binary perspective, I just can't seem to fit comfortably in it.
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