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Acting Female

Started by Tori, January 28, 2012, 07:20:47 PM

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Tazia of the Omineca

I used to speak some old english. I knew how to say "That's a really hot boy" and Hello and stuff.
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eli77

Quote from: Tori on January 29, 2012, 06:44:39 PM
Yeah, it is a little of both. It was certainly written down in Olde English. The original printings of his complete works were written with the old spellings. Modern versions tend to update the spellings but the antiquated words remain. Nobody has done more to modernize the English language than Shakespeare.

Tori, I think you are misunderstanding.

Old English (also called Anglo-Saxon) is what Beowulf was written in. It looks like this:


It's almost an entirely different language. Middle English is what Chaucer wrote in. Example:

Whan that Auerylle with his shoures soote
The droghte of March / hath perced to the roote
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

Shakespeare is very much Modern English.
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Tazia of the Omineca

Oh Old English, I wish I could speak you.
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Tori

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2012, 06:51:15 PM
Tori, I think you are misunderstanding.

Old English (also called Anglo-Saxon) is what Beowulf was written in. It looks like this:


It's almost an entirely different language. Middle English is what Chaucer wrote in. Example:

Whan that Auerylle with his shoures soote
The droghte of March / hath perced to the roote
And bathed euery veyne in swich lycour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour
Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

Shakespeare is very much Modern English.

I very much agree. But like I said, many old (Middle English) spellings remained through the Elizabethan/Jacobean era (Ye Olde Shoppe). Also, words were pronounced differently, which makes some rhymes sound funny to a modern ear (modern Brits sound nothing like their Elizabethan counterparts).

But we're picking nits. When I first said 'old' English, I meant old as in antiquated (or I would have capitalized the O in old), and I was not exclusively talking about Shakespeare. I am hard pressed to think of an extant Old English playwright. 


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Tori

So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?


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Asfsd4214

I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.
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Tori

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 12:38:59 AM
I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.

Well, in many ways, men have it easier than women when it comes to transition.

Jessica Alba is VERY short to begin with. Posture won't fix that.

I am a short man, and a tallish girl.

But, changing Jessica's posture would make a difference. At the very least, a change in her posture would have people see her as a manly girl (perhaps a lesbian)... if she binded her breasts and wore the right clothes to conceal her curves... hid her hair... etc. she may be seen as a bull lesbian. Add HRT, so she had stubble... and a low voice... she could well be on her way to passing. But I don't think she wants to.

This discussion has been fun. It surprises me that behavior is not on many MtF's radars as something that can REALLY help someone pass. It is free and does not require surgery.

Now that I have answered your question, would you mind answering one of mine from my previous post?


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Asfsd4214

I'm sorry, I didn't see your question, I looked back and couldn't see anything to answer. Let me know what question in particular you'd like me to answer an I'd be happy too.
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Tori

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 12:04:31 AM
So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?

Any of the sentences ending in question marks would suffice. ;)


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Tori

@ Bev

Since I am writing this on my phone, quoting specific points from your post will be more time consuming than simply replying.

That said, you are the bee's knees! And thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Posture is static... sort of. The posture of a Neanderthol man and a Ballerina are both noticeable. But posture is what stays static while the rest of you is in motion. A Neanderthol man is static in different ways than a ballerina... and that stasis maintains through motion. A ballerina's straight back and neck shouldn't change while they leap and dance. I could give a Neanderthol example here but I trust you get the point.

I should have said, "Posture and gesture" as one is active and one is static. Sorry, as a Yank, our use of the word, "Posture" is often incorrect. We speak Amerikun here, not English. ;)

Yes, clothing makes a world of difference. So do breasts. I so want to complain about how sensitive MINE are. Alas. No hormones... yet. But yeah, even without hormones, a MtF can use her breasts (or breast forms) better in order to pass better.

Men's shoulders DO slope more. This is because muscle on men is more commonly visible up the neck. In this case, we are BOTH right.

As for my hip 'generalization'... touché. But remember, skelatal remains are often sexually identified by the hip structure. Young or old (Olde?)... wide or narrow, a woman's hips are different than a man's. Men can, IMO, more easily walk like a woman than vice versa because men can lift their legs from the front, like a woman, and from an angle, like a man. Forgive my generalities about men and women here. Of course I mean MOST men and MOST women, but I don't feel like spending the extra 20 minutes it will require in order to be 100% PC at this hour, while typing on my phone.

I agree about nails and hair. I have gone back to short hair recently and I hate it.

But really Beverly, thank you for all the tips. I will be using them in the future. Also, thank you for participating. As a newbie, I had different expectations about how this particular conversation would flow. You have kept it positive and given it momentum. I really appreciate you rescuing this thread. I wouldn't have started it if it did not mean something to me.

Aloha,
Tori


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Tori

Bev it is then. Perhaps you should have picked a simpler name, like Tori. Four letters. Hard to get wrong. Your name has THREE E's. Mine has four letters. In this case, I win! "Ha!", I say. Point Tori.

I love how (that) we are a half a world away. I will have my coffee when you go to bed.

Kindly stop taking about your breasts or I will die of envy. Tragically. ;)

Men and women do indeed have much in common. But a woman with child-bearing hips (or as us Amerikuns say, "Bull-legged" hips do not have the glutes close enough together in order to walk powerfully like a man. They can impersonate a man, but the musculature often doesn't quite fit the frame... hormones or no.

A man can walk like most women, even without heals, by simply using the font of their leg in order to walk instead of the side of the leg and butt. Similar? Yes. But different.

Thanks again, BEvErlEyEE,
Tori
;)


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Tori

Bev,

This is not a contest.

Sincerely,
T


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pebbles

I had to keep my mouth shut instead of making as many dry sarcastic snarks at certain pepole like I used to... It's not that it made me pass any less well but rather this is subtle sexism at work as I began to be seen as a female, What was previously seen as amusing sarcasic cynicism, was instead seen as bitching and moaning and a generally and unpleasant attribute.
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Tori

A well made point, Pebbles...

Very. Very. VERY well spake.

I do take it to heart... furthermore, I apreciiate how (that) you had the guts to actually type it.

You not only speak about how to 'act' female, you are instructing me and other n00bs as to how to fit in here at Susan's.

But do you not agree this is an act? A sort of Hive Mind? A change in behavior in order to fit in?

Also, thanks for everything Peb, you have been an inspiration figure since I started lurking here. I can't begin to say how helpful you have been by unintentionally informing my discussions with my fiancé.

And thanks again for cutting to the heart of the matter without betraying the woman you are.

Tori



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Tori

'twas a joke Bev.

You see, since I shortened your name to three letters I signed myself...

Ah, to Hell with it,
T
>:-)

p.s. I hate explaining my jokes.

p.p.s. There is only one letter in my name now. Get it?

p.p.p.s. I hate explaining my jokes.

:)

p.p.p.p.s. Women...  ::)


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Tori

Quote from: Beverley on January 30, 2012, 06:55:05 AM
Humour is like a frog - dissect it and it dies
George Bernard Shaw (I think)


errr.... you *do* want to be one?

Beverley (name at full strength again)

Yup.

I just had an epiphany or two while talking to y'all tonight. Weather you want to admit it or not you played a part in teaching me how to act my life's role.

Thank you ladies for finally talking to me about this. It has been most cathartic.

I understand that every forum needs its own weeding process, but this was my first thread and it took thirty five years of being the wrong sex to write it.

Running on T is tough. While I wait for properly prescribed hormones, I can still sand the rough edges. Thank you all for your continued help.

As for what I meant by, "Women  ::) ". I suspect y'all know what I meant.

Tori


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Assoluta

Quote from: Tori on January 28, 2012, 10:44:46 PM
I agree... but "act" is different than act.

Acting as "you" is still acting.

I want to know about THAT stuff. How do you "act" yourself?

Again, (and I guess I'm hating on the drag queens tonight... I love you ladies!) I am not talking about being TOO feminine to be perceived real. I am not talking about playing a Drag Queen.

Playing yourSELF is as much an act as any other. It just feels right. But it too is an ACT.

I don't believe hormones do it all... conscious thought also plays a part.

Have YOU never made girl faces in the mirror?

I think this clears up your opinion, but if somebody states "we act 99.9% of the time" that tends to be taken as "we pretend to be somebody we're not 99.9% of the time". To me, there are two main definitions of acting - that is to do an action, and the other is to play a role of somebody who is not yourself. I think it's important to make this distinction before anyone else quotes Shakespeare saying "The world is but a stage" etc.

Sometimes we act different in different situations - are we not being ourselves in each of them? Perhaps they are all part of ourselves - the different facets of one person at work, as a parent, as a friend, as a partner. The nebulous concept of "true self" and acting as yourself can become highly subjective and vague - and is it just a binary concept? Are we acting as our true selves or NOT acting as our true selves? Or can we sometimes be in between that? I think that it is possible.

If we take the definition of "acting" as doing an action, and being ourselves as also an "act", then in a way, it is a self-evident statement, because if we do not act, then we are doing nothing - we are inACTive.
It takes balls to go through SRS!

My singing and music channel - Visit pwetty pwease!!!:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kibouo?feature=mhee
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eli77

Not sure I can offer much, as I'm a bit of a different situation in a number of way, but...

I did shift my posture in how I walk. Not so much to feminize myself, as to just not look so scared all the time. I used to walk with my shoulders up, neck bent, my eyes on the floor, and long strides to keep me away from people. Sometimes I still slip back to old habits when I'm uncomfortable or nervous.

I also went to a vocal therapist for 5 sessions to help me project my voice so I don't sound like a mouse.

Otherwise... my factory default settings seem to be in female range for most things. Occasionally, I consciously act more boyish to match my identity. Somehow I'm more comfortable sitting like a bloke now that nobody sees me as one.

And of course I don't have long hair or long nails or heels or skirts....

Quote from: pebbles on January 30, 2012, 05:49:57 AM
I had to keep my mouth shut instead of making as many dry sarcastic snarks at certain pepole like I used to... It's not that it made me pass any less well but rather this is subtle sexism at work as I began to be seen as a female, What was previously seen as amusing sarcasic cynicism, was instead seen as bitching and moaning and a generally and unpleasant attribute.

I experienced this in the opposite direction. I'm a really quiet person mostly, especially around new people. Before people tended to see me as more nervous, worried, scared, etc. I used to get "are you okay?" or "is something wrong?" all the time. Now I get comments that I'm very together and self-controlled. Silence obviously means very different things in gendered perception.
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Stephe

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on January 30, 2012, 12:38:59 AM
I know this post won't change anything, but I can't help but make it.

All I have left to say or ask.

Is, if posture can cause a failed pass..... does that mean you believe if we took say, Jessica Alba, and had her walk like a man and have muscular posture, she would be read... by... just about anyone with eyes... as a male?

I just don't believe that.

Depends on how close someone is. From a distance "normal" features aren't visible but posture/how they walk and carry themselves is. FFS and perfect skin isn't going to matter 75 feet away.
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Stephe

Quote from: Tori on January 30, 2012, 12:50:39 AM
This discussion has been fun. It surprises me that behavior is not on many MtF's radars as something that can REALLY help someone pass. It is free and does not require surgery.

Seems for some people things like this and voice have no impact on passing, only major amounts of surgery do?  I don't get it..
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