Just what is"Living full time as a woman"?

[Asfsd4214]

Talking is using a masculine voice. That will get you clocked before pretty much any other non visual cue. Walking is a presentation feature when, put together with other cues, would shift ones perception to understanding you are whatever gender. Acting like a guy will also get you clocked as a male if you aren't passing without question, too.

I had a bunch more to say but it wasn't on topic, so I'll leave it there

Obviously a masculine sounding voice would get you clocked, on this I agree. However some argue that it's more the words you use, pronunciations, swearing, etc, which I don't agree with at all.

[Asfsd4214]

Plenty of boys I know talk like women. I don't call them "misses" or "she". Just not something I feel comfortable doing.

My point exactly.

I was a bit ambiguous before. I meant that the argument that talking LIKE a man would get you 'clocked' is something I don't agree with.

[AbraCadabra]

Back on topic...
RLE "Living full time as a woman" is about to help you NOT to make a mistake.
Doing the 24/7 RLE thing is an APPORTUNITY! to let you FEEL and EXPERIENCE what it will be for you to transition - before you get yourself into some sort of a mess, e.g. doing like FFS, BA, maybe SRS.
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE...!

It is actually as simple as that. There are plenty folks who will find out, when REALLY TRYING 24/7 - it's NOT for them to transition after all .
TVs, CDs, Andro would be examples, or?

Nothing wrong with that, but the underlying reason is to EXPERIENCE living in your gender of "choice" ... now it may just turn out, this choice not to BE the right choice after all.
It has happened, you know.

Axélle

[AbraCadabra]

"Could you rephrase that? I don't understand."

Maybe someone else can?

I'm really saying what Sephirah was saying earlier, in my own words, and some others e.g. Alainaluvsu: "Transitioning is NOT a token effort" and RLE 24/7 aught to make sure you do not do the wrong thing.

Axelle

[AbraCadabra]

Time for yet another breather?

Axélle

[Cindy]

I have removed posts from the Hooter thing, the avatar and comments are offensive. The thread may be disjointed.

[Asfsd4214]

Back on topic...
RLE "Living full time as a woman" is about to help you NOT to make a mistake.
Doing the 24/7 RLE thing is an APPORTUNITY! to let you FEEL and EXPERIENCE what it will be for you to transition - before you get yourself into some sort of a mess, e.g. doing like FFS, BA, maybe SRS.
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE...!

It is actually as simple as that. There are plenty folks who will find out, when REALLY TRYING 24/7 - it's NOT for them to transition after all .
TVs, CDs, Andro would be examples, or?

Nothing wrong with that, but the underlying reason is to EXPERIENCE living in your gender of "choice" ... now it may just turn out, this choice not to BE the right choice after all.
It has happened, you know.

Axélle

Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.

Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.

Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.

Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?

Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?

We are adults, not children.

[AbraCadabra]

Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.

Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.

Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.

Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?

Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?

We are adults, not children.

Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.

There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.

If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.

Just food for thought,
Axélle

[Asfsd4214]

Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.

There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.

If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.

Just food for thought,
Axélle

So that means we need OTHER adults to govern our lives? And who governs their lives? And who governs the lives of those governing them?

You didn't respond to my hypotheticals.

Where do you draw the line?

I am an adult, and in matters relating to MY body I should be the ultimate authority. 

[kelly_aus]

For me, living 'full time' started the day I took off the mask I'd worn for most of my life and just relaxed and let me be me - no more watching what I said and did.. It was about claiming my identity and owning it. Within a month or 2 I had completely relaxed, I wore whatever I wanted, I did what I wanted.. Over time, my body language has changed.. My therapist has never pushed any particular stereotypes on me.. But then, he has only ever seen me as Kelly, I'd already started to 'present' as a woman by the time I had my first session with him. He's never seen me in 'guy mode'.. In fact, he's never pushed any particular ideas on me..

Obviously a masculine sounding voice would get you clocked, on this I agree. However some argue that it's more the words you use, pronunciations, swearing, etc, which I don't agree with at all.

I've not done any work on changing my voice, I think it sounds masculine, my friends disagree.. I no longer talk in a forced masculine manner, men and women talk differently, and I talk like a woman. My voice certainly doesn't get me clocked.. In fact, just today I was in the company of 2 women, one of whom is aware of my being trans, one I'd never met before. The women I'd never met before was completely stunned when I was quite open about being trans in conversation with the one who did.. She commented that she'd assumed I'd been born a woman until I said anything..

[cindianna_jones]

A friend of mine,70 years old who is sceptical of ->-bleeped-<-, made a remark that really hit home. When I told her about the required real life experience"living full time as a woman" she said, "Just what the HELL is THAT supposed to mean?".Good point. If this were the Victorian era, or the 1920's, or even the 1950's it would be an easy question to answer. But in 2012 America there is precious little difference in the way everyone lives(except economic considerations). Most women dress pretty much like men most of the time.The body shape is the main givaway.I wear leggins daily to do work around the house and yard, which has got a few stares, but since leggings are  even worn by men for exercising now, even that doesn't always raise eyebrows.And in the summer I wear shorts,which are obviously gender neutral.So what does it mean. My friend said"The only thing that I can think of that fits now is GETTING PREGNANT', which perhaps is a little too much to ask.

Hi boss. I'm a woman now. My new name is Cindi. Any questions?



The workplace is where the rubber meets the road. That's where you really have to deal with all the gender issues and learn to get along.

Chin up!

Cindi

[Alainaluvsu]

Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.

Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.

Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.

Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?

Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?

We are adults, not children.

I'm a big time libertarian, so I do agree with you rhetorically. But we do have idiots that will sue any and everybody they can when they screw up. That's more than likely why we have standards in place like we do, and why everybody follows the standards.

[rachl]

Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.

There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.

If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.

Just food for thought,
Axélle

If you're going to make empirical claims, please provide some evidence. You claimed that it's happened before that people regret (or decide not to transition) based on their RLE experiences. So, show some numbers or evidence, and not anecdotes or a single famous case. The medical community passes off mandatory and lengthy RLE as a form of informed consent and for the patient's own good. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that one can justify this requirement at all (questionable), why a year (or even two)?

Utterly unreasonable. Deeply unethical and paternalistic practices passing themselves off as informed consent and for the patient's own good.

[Carbon]

I've seen people regret SRS but they usually felt pressured into it by the legal and medical establishments, so...

[Jamie D]

Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.

Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.

Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.

Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?

Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?

We are adults, not children.

The thinking behind the "real life experience" is fundamentally sound.  Because SRS is, for all purposes, a "one-way street," it is important that the person having the surgery have no regrets about the change.  Those regrets could end in suicide.

I just view it as test driving a car before you actually buy it, if you follow my analogy.

[Carbon]

How does wearing skirts and asking people to refer to you by female pronouns tell you how you will feel about an invasive surgery that will permanently alter your genitals though?

[ktc]

Hi boss. I'm a woman now. My new name is Cindi. Any questions?



The workplace is where the rubber meets the road. That's where you really have to deal with all the gender issues and learn to get along.

Chin up!

Cindi

If you're not working when you transition (most commonly because you're a student), does that make things more vague? Levels of social interaction in a university or high school course can ebb and flow, and people can switch schools or graduate from courses in a way that make transitions quite vague. For me, it's odd using a criterion that isn't universal for a concept that seems to be universal ("living as a woman"). Even criteria like names or pronouns seem fundamentally strange to me - many people have gender neutral names, many languages have gender neutral names to a much greater extent than others, and many languages lack gendered pronouns entirely. Even English lacks gendered first person pronouns, so the idea of using gendered pronouns for yourself isn't a common experience in English. Identifying as a woman or a man is also something that's fairly rare.

[Sarah Louise]

Living fulltime as who you want surgery to be is important.  This isn't a game, it isn't just part time or whenever you feel like it.

RLE is for those who plan on having surgery.  In my opinion you shouldn't take hormones unless you plan on living that life permanently.

Its life, work, family, etc.

[Jamie D]

How does wearing skirts and asking people to refer to you by female pronouns tell you how you will feel about an invasive surgery that will permanently alter your genitals though?

Keep in mind that the WPATH Standards of Care apply to both MtF and FtM.

In some places, the Real Life Experience is required before the onset of hormone replacement therapy.

Some people find that their experiences during their RLE are not conducive to full surgical transition.  Some people even de-transition because of the stresses they experience.

Transition is a on-going process.  Talk with many of the post-operative transitioners here for their perspective of the process.

[Carbon]

Keep in mind that the WPATH Standards of Care apply to both MtF and FtM.

In some places, the Real Life Experience is required before the onset of hormone replacement therapy.

Some people find that their experiences during their RLE are not conducive to full surgical transition.  Some people even de-transition because of the stresses they experience.

Transition is a on-going process.  Talk with many of the post-operative transitioners here for their perspective of the process.

But why would any of that mean that someone shouldn't be allowed to fix their body dysphoria related to their genitals if the dysphoria is consistent and they understand the risks?