Objectification of MTFs - just like women's?

[Asfsd4214]

Everyone's different, and this isn't a competition.

[AbraCadabra]

Reply # 39, interesting post on many a level ---- yet let's not forget that:

"We do not see things as they are, but see things as WE are"

It is always good to be reminded of that, including myself of course

Axélle

[Dahlia]

While I certainly agree that "objectification" is a terrible thing, I think the term gets thrown around too often. Sexuality is not our enemy, and to assume that attraction to pre-op women is just a simple fetish is to place faith in a strict gender binary I don't believe exists.

The sex industry attracts vulnerable groups, no question. But rational people also choose these careers. Sex is a key aspect of the human condition, and you'll never get rid of sex based entertainment. Blaming the consumer is problematic because it paints them all with the same brush, assuming that no one turns to the sex industry for healthy reasons.

Myself, I enjoy pornography and I do use the services of prostitutes. Am I helping to prop up these industries? In my own small way, yes. But I'm a physically disabled person, not particularly attractive, and sex partners have never really been available to me. Without porn and sex workers, I would never be able to explore my sexuality. Should I just let my situation leave me asexual? Am I "objectifying" sex workers? Am I a horrible person? No, no, and I hope not.

These things are never black and white, and the solutions are never simple. You can help vulnerable groups by expanding opportunity, easing poverty, and offering real choice. But it will always be a choice, and it's not for anyone to judge but the people involved.

You're very honest .

[Julie Wilson]

Reply # 39, interesting post on many a level ---- yet let's not forget that:

"We do not see things as they are, but see things as WE are"

It is always good to be reminded of that, including myself of course

Axélle

We certainly do see things as we are and it's powerful magic.

But that truth has to be balanced against another truth which goes something like...  "We are going to have to put on our big girl panties and realize that some things are out of our control."

It reminds me of another situation where someone decided to either be fleshly or spiritual.  The tendency for some is to attempt to be a spiritual being instead of being a physical being.  Abstain from the pleasures of the flesh in order to ascend to a higher spiritual plane.  Or the opposite, to turn from "faith" and indulge in hedonism.  Neither experience is very complete because humans tend to be spiritual and physical and one must find balance.

I believe that in order to work in harmony with the world one must recognize that sometimes he or she will tend to see things not as they are but rather as he or she is.  If an individual is fearful and mistrusting then he or she will see the world as a dangerous place of betrayal and backstabbing.  However in some situations that is what the world is.  Still are those backstabbers and betrayers backstabbers and betrayers or are they simply people... given an opportunity to do the wrong thing?

So I put on my big girl panties and realize that not only is the world what I am, the world is also what I allow it to be.  I can create back stabbers and betrayers simply by giving them the opportunity, simple ignorant people then become "enemies".  For instance if I were to want to live as female after transition but chose to share photographs of myself, identifying myself as trans then I would be giving the world an opportunity to betray me and stab me in the back.  Would those people be intentionally evil?  Maybe, maybe not.  Mostly the ignorant take an opportunity and run with it, fools and their follies.

Gossip is a perfect example of ignorant people running with an opportunity.  The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  But the bypass to Hell is paved with ignorance.

Part of putting on my big girl panties is realizing that I have a choice as to what I share with people and what I keep to myself and sharing can be powerful.  Sharing can create a life of strife and suffering, powerlessness and despair.  There are remedies for such things such as moving and starting over, changing one's name etc., but a stitch in time saves nine stitches every time.  And hindsight is generally clearer than foresight so there will be times when repairs become extensive and then one must determine whether to buy a new garment and begin fresh or make a lot of repairs, knowing that the garment will be imperfect.  I am currently shopping for a new pair of bloomers. 

M2Fs will sell themselves into prostitution and pornography for as long as they are able.  Society will continue to see M2Fs as men and will use porn as evidence of that perception.  If one has the opportunity to present herself as a trans woman (or rather the opportunity to avoid that presentation) then she makes a willful choice.  If she chooses to present herself as a trans woman then some things will be out of her control.  The fools will run with the information she has given about herself and Society will perceive her as a man and associate her with the M2Fs it sees in porn.  If she has the luxury of instead presenting herself as a woman and withholding that information then she can enter more so into an experience where recognizing that she sees the world as she is has a lot more power.

[Adam (birkin)]

I hope a guy's opinion is welcome here.

Women can be objectified for all sorts of reasons. You peruse a porn site, you see women exploited on the basis of race. In fact, that is the biggest one in my mind and it's the first thing I think of. stereotypes of the Asian woman, or the Black woman, etc...which some people come to truly expect of these women sexually.

It can happen on the basis of their class ("trailer trash", "needs money for X"). On the basis of their body size, shape, ability. On the basis of a certain body part (it can include anything that seems different such as very large breasts, etc). You can find porn of pretty much anything, quite easily.

In this case, of the "->-bleeped-<-" porn, the woman is being objectified on the basis of having a penis.

So do I think it's the same? Pretty much. Different consequences for different women. I have some major, major issues with the porn and sex industry, but that is a different story.

[Julie Wilson]

In this case, of the "->-bleeped-<-" porn, the woman is being objectified on the basis of having a penis.

So do I think it's the same? Pretty much. Different consequences for different women. I have some major, major issues with the porn and sex industry, but that is a different story.

Except in all other instances (besides the woman with a penis) the woman is still considered and perceived as a woman.

Which is pretty much not the same O_o ...

[MariaMx]

I am so tired of trying to be what I am that I have given up on it.  So I won't try to be me anymore.  Instead I will just be.

For me transition was a bit like eating the same thing over and over again till I puked. For years I wouldn't look at a site, forum or do a search on anything related. Being what we are is not something that is easy to forget, but it can be ignored. Being really sick of the whole thing was how I came to just be. I'm having my little transient trip down memory lane on this forum now, but my visit here is quickly nearing it's end.

And I won't ever seek the friendship of another trans woman because I realize how wrong that is now, to seek friendship because of a belief that we share common ground when the reality is that we are all different and a condition doesn't make for any kind of unity.

I feel very much the same way. I don't think of it as wrong in an absolute sense but to have a friendship with a trans woman is just not for me. When I first came under the care of the local GIC they strongly suggested I'd seek out others (some kind of support group or something) but doing that was totally out of the question for me. I felt it would bolster and reinforce an identity as a trans woman, and that I really didn't want. Apart from my trips to the Mercure hotel and clinic next door I've never spoken to a trans woman face to face,  and even while there I mostly kept to myself.

I'm done with the games.  It's time to move forward again.

I wish you the best of luck And thanks for your insightful posts. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them.

[sfgeek]

I think that, like soap operas and sitcoms, porn mirrors the culture at hand--just, these days, smaller and smaller segments of that culture due to the long tail and creation of niche markets.  Making a change to porn won't make a difference overall to the culture--first the change has to be made to the culture, then porn will reflect that change.  Y'know, in another generation . . .  If we want people to see us as women, we have to show people us as women.  The trouble is, it's not sensational news when a TS has transitioned properly, because all you get to see is a normal woman living a normal life, and from a news standpoint that's boring--but if gay men can slowly begin to convince many straight people that they're good members of society then we can do the same.  At that point, anyone who comes out MtF would be treated like a woman (or at least someone who, like little girls, trains to be socialized as a woman) even if they stayed out.  Though, yeah, we'd still be sexually objectified--just maybe more the way women are then the way we are right now, in an in-between state (it's always worse when you're Other, and from a great many perspectives at the moment we're considered Other).

Prostitution is another deal.  I personally am in favour of a highly regulated version of it, and wish Canada would get this fixed.  If it was, it would be possible for a prostitute to work more or less safely, and to get out without problems once they made the money they needed to (if they want to get out, that is).  Brothels are now legal in Ontario, and now they ought to be heavily encouraging those brothels to draw in the street walkers and drive out the pimps;  this is not yet an industry where just anyone can freelance safely (frankly I'm not even in favour of the upscale models working alone, but there's not much that can be done to stop them from taking the risks, given that some of their clients may be pretty powerful men).

I look forward to the day when cosmetic cyborg implants become available.  Then the available kink for people to focus on fetishizing will be so much beyond the pale of current societal norms that people will look at us and say, "You're pre-op?  Who cares?  Let's go check out the robotic extensions on that guy."  And leave us in peace to just be women.