What is it like to de-transition?

[Naturally Blonde]

I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belonged to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

I would tend to agree with you Dahlia as I've sometimes received a certain amount of aggression and abuse in this forum and in T forums in general over the years because I don't fit in to the same criteria.

But I'm not sure that you can categorize those who are into men by their ethnic origins as I know one or two gorgeous white MTF's who are very much into men only in a big way but the majority of MTF's are usually previously married or still married to women. There's nothing wrong with that at all but I have sometimes felt alienated on this forum as my experiences of growing up are very different and I didn't want to marry a woman or live as a man.  The thought of wearing a man's morning suit and walking down the isle with a girl wasn't something I ever wanted to do.

Also Felicitá, I did rebel against any forced male conditioning which I knew wasn't right for me.

[Dahlia]

Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex. I'm presuming too that the social conditioning is also culturally biased. Yes, "the world is uncomfortable" with anyone that strays out of the status quo, hence the masculine social conditioning you see in many M2Fs.

Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

Oh, btw: are you familiar with the John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda case?
The babyboy who lost his penis due to a botched circumcision and was raised and 'nurtured' to be a girl?

He rejected all girl stuff from very early on without knowing he was born a boy.

All the nurturing and 'conformism' couldn't turn him into a girl.

At 14 he found out the truth and immediately started living as a boy.

So this doesn't stand anymore: <<Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex>>

[Dahlia]

  My spouse is single on Facebook--I'm her sister.  My kids...I'm their aunt.  My grandkids think I'm their aunt as well.  Yeah, small price to pay but I transitioned to stop living a lie, right?

Just living a different one actually...

This is something so terrible...for your spouse and for your children.

[Nicolette]

Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

That certainly redefines the meaning of "You're positively radiating!" I don't personally know any transgender folk now, but I used to. The older M2F I knew were more masculine in their ways.

Social conditioning is still alive and kicking. Awareness of feminism, women's lib etc. doesn't create neutral conditioning and equality overnight. I think we have many years to go before we see that. Many areas and cultures on this planet will never see it unless there's a radical change, reform and "enlightenment".

You're implying there's a genetic connection between hyper-masculine M2Fs and the melanin content of the epidermis?

[Dahlia]

You're implying there's a genetic connection between hyper-masculine M2Fs and the melanin content of the epidermis?

Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).

How come?

And yes: I've traveled extensively through Asia and South America and meeting and talking to a lot of MTF there.

[Nicolette]

Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).

How come?

I hear that in Iran many gay men turn to SRS to avoid the death sentence. In this context we have an extreme social pressure to conform to cultural ideals. Is there a possibility that in some cultures we have a similar effect going on although very watered down? Within Asia and South America are we not looking at very macho cultures? This may create a bias for gay men to lean towards transsexuality to escape homosexual oppression. The same cultural pressures may keep tentative M2Fs permanently in the closet, whereas in the West there is more freedom to explore one's identity.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).



And yes: I've traveled extensively through Asia and South America and meeting and talking to a lot of MTF there.

Where is your study published?

[Dahlia]

Where is your study published?

I would say: go see for yourself. Go to real life MTF groups and meetings.
Not only in San Francisco but all over Asia and South America and all over Europe too.
Go talk to MTF there and you'll see what I exactly mean.

[MariaMx]

I am wondering, is transsexualism more or less accepted in Asia and South America than western society? What are conditions like in these countries for those that are not feminine? If there are less of the masculine type in one society, it might not be reasonable to automatically assume it is because of genetics. If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

[Nicolette]

....... If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

It's where I'd personally start my investigations and research. Blaming genetics is a conclusion that is all too easy. Besides, "male white privilege" is determined by culture and not by DNA.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

It's where I'd personally start my investigations and research. Blaming genetics is a conclusion that is all too easy. Besides, "male white privilege" is determined by culture and not by DNA.

Judith Lorber in The Social Construction of Gender proposes that not only gender but even sex is socially constructed.

http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf

I would say: go see for yourself. Go to real life MTF groups and meetings.
Not only in San Francisco but all over Asia and South America and all over Europe too.
Go talk to MTF there and you'll see what I exactly mean.

Well, you have already done it. And you are quite the scholar being (presumably) fluent in Spanish, Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin) Korean, Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, German, Italian just to start. Although I am primarily a historian and not a social scientist, I would be interested in reading your peer-reveiwed study.

I am wondering, is transsexualism more or less accepted in Asia and South America than western society? What are conditions like in these countries for those that are not feminine? If there are less of the masculine type in one society, it might not be reasonable to automatically assume it is because of genetics. If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

[MariaMx]

As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

I wasn't suggesting conditions are the same in these places or that they necessarily have a common denominator accounting for Dahlia's subjective observation. I was merely to point out that there probably is a much better explanation than western transsexuals being inherently different. If the situation is in fact as Dahlia describes it, it does not necessarily follow that the explanation for what is observed is the same for these places.

As a possible explanation I suggested conditions in a given place might be such that as specific sub-group of trans people might be more reluctant to come out and therefore appear to not to exist. Whether this is true or not for any or all of these place I can't say. It was just a thought off the top of my head.

[Elsa]

woahhh... I wonder where/if we are/have gone waaaaaaaaay off topic ladies...

yup ... transsexualism is different from country to country and sometimes even state to state... and city to city... so there is no point comparing it unless you are planning on living in that country.

As for whether there are masculine/feminine MTFs - to each her own.

The usual reasons are:
Family/Friends/kids/loneliness - sometimes giving up people you love can be just too painfull for some and sometimes people decide that they would rather not transition and/or de-transition.
Finance/Money - lets face it - this a BIG factor - not many of us have the funds to go all the way but sometimes the ones that do find they can no longer sustain themselves in their new gender and prefer to revert back - just to be able to stay alive.
Lack of acceptance in their new gender.

But sometimes they just feel that its not the right thing for them...

I stopped myself from transitioning for a year and half/two so I guess I can sorta understand people going through this... But I can also understand not being able to forgive myself for making the same mistake twice.

Transitioning is tough no matter who or where you are or what your financial situation is...

[Dahlia]

I hear that in Iran many gay men turn to SRS to avoid the death sentence.

*Sigh*....Iran is something completely different from the free western world, isn't it?

Some Iranian gays turn to a transition and SRS  in hopes for  a 'better life' and most Iranian gays remain living as men and closeted for the rest of their life.

I find it quite offensive to compare terribly oppressed gay/mtf/lesbian Irians to people living in the free western world, free to make their choices and to choose how to live as they want to.

[Dahlia]

Judith Lorber in The Social Construction of Gender proposes that not only gender but even sex is socially constructed.

http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf




Well, you have already done it. And you are quite the scholar being (presumably) fluent in Spanish, Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin) Korean, Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, German, Italian just to start. Although I am primarily a historian and not a social scientist, I would be interested in reading your peer-reveiwed study.


As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

Have you ever travelled outside the USA? To other continents?

Yes, I speak English, German and Spanish. Most Western Europeans speak one or two other languages besides their mother tongue.

Travel through Asia and you will find out a lot of Asians speak English to some extent btw.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Have you ever travelled outside the USA? To other continents?

Yes, throughout North and South America, the Caribbean and Asia but it is irrelevant to the discussion because I don't claim to be the transsexual equivalent of Mary Leakey observing trans folks like she studies chimps

Yes, I speak English, German and Spanish. Most Western Europeans speak one or two other languages besides their mother tongue.

So that means you can't communicate with about 3 billion of the people in your "study area" and most Asians can't speak English very well even the ones who live in the US. I know because I tutor Asian students. But again, besides these sweeping generalizations, you must have some data to back up these assertions--assertions are claims without evidence--or do you?

[peky]

Yes, throughout North and South America, the Caribbean and Asia but it is irrelevant to the discussion because I don't claim to be the transsexual equivalent of Mary Leakey observing trans folks like she studies chimps


So that means you can't communicate with about 3 billion of the people in your "study area" and most Asians can't speak English very well even the ones who live in the US. I know because I tutor Asian students. But again, besides these sweeping generalizations, you must have some data to back up these assertions--assertions are claims without evidence--or do you?

I agree with you Cal. People here are confusing "gender roles" which are "social constructs" with 'gender identity."

A flaming effeminate gay man is not a female, no matter how feminine he is. Like JamieD said before, that is why we have psychiatric evaluations as requirements for transition, so that people who confuse "gender roles" with a"gender identity" are screened out.

The claim that some TG/TS are not "really" females because their "masculine" is prosperous.Look at this link:
http://nostalgiadr.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/top-5-female-drag-racers/

and tell me that these ladies are less than femininity because of their chosen "masculine" profession!!

[kelly_aus]

I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year  while visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belong to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

Wow! There's a sweeping generalisation.. Of the MtF's I know IRL, some are lesbian, some are straight.. Some are a little masculine, but most of them are feminine. Myself personally? I'm far from being a girly girl, but I'm not masculine and I never was.

[Trans Truth]

Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

Oh, btw: are you familiar with the John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda case?
The babyboy who lost his penis due to a botched circumcision and was raised and 'nurtured' to be a girl?

He rejected all girl stuff from very early on without knowing he was born a boy.

All the nurturing and 'conformism' couldn't turn him into a girl.

At 14 he found out the truth and immediately started living as a boy.

So this doesn't stand anymore: <<Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex>>

In my experience most MTFs (of all ethnicities and backgrounds) are feminine, but a few are masculine by nature it seems. I am not going to speculate as to why they transition, however the standard narrative of 'social conditioning' is one I do not believe.

I guess people tend to segregate themselves based on common traits. Therefore, you tend to see the feminine MTFs coming together and the masculine MTFs forming their own separate groups etc. That's hardly surprising.

[Trans Truth]

Back to the original topic:

The usual reasons are:
Family/Friends/kids/loneliness - sometimes giving up people you love can be just too painfull for some and sometimes people decide that they would rather not transition and/or de-transition.
Finance/Money - lets face it - this a BIG factor - not many of us have the funds to go all the way but sometimes the ones that do find they can no longer sustain themselves in their new gender and prefer to revert back - just to be able to stay alive.
Lack of acceptance in their new gender.
Transitioning is tough no matter who or where you are or what your financial situation is...

I have actually never heard of people detransition actively and permanently due to financial concern. The only cases I have heard are of temporary setting aside of transition because they cannot afford procedures to make them pass and therefore go full time in the short term. I myself would rather starve and die than detransition, and I believe many other MTFs are the same.