The RLE requirement is rubbish

[Nicolette]

.. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

That's a bugger.  Naming requirements in the UK are the most liberal in the world. Anything goes except for those deemed offensive.

[Beverly]

No need to be harsh.

On these forums? sometimes there is a need. Not everyone thinks about the issues involved. If you have then so much the better but some people are very unrealistic.

I talked with my family abut what I was going to do, and what they offered me was: "We don't want anybody here to know. You can stay here hidden or leave, but I don't want to see you in a "dress or a mini-skirt" and with long hair. You will cause a depression to your mother and she will be interned into a psychiatric ward, and we will be the shame of the neighbourhood until we die. Now is a good time for you to start looking for your own home".

I think you need to talk with them again. Not every woman has long hair or wears a mini-skirt, or wears make-up. I am wearing jeans, no make up and my hair tied back but I am in transition and am in RLE. You do not have to stand out from the crowd and like MariaMx said, you can adjust gradually and slowly and give everyone around you time to adapt.

There are women out there who look 'butch' or manly. You do not have to be a girly-girl. It does not have to be pink ribbons and flowers and taffetta ballgowns. What is a woman? What defines her as one?

There you have your answer, are you happy now?

It makes no difference to me. I was attempting to ensure that YOU had considered everything. I posted it for your good, not mine.

If I have to do RLE, I need to find my own place to live,

No you do not.

On the job, I will disclose it when the bosses allow it. If not, I will keep it hidden.

What legislation is in place to protect you as a transitioner?

In fact, you are not even allowed to have a neutral name. If the name is not related to the gender, you can't change it.

Nonetheless there will be rules for RLE in your area. Find out what they are. I doubt very much that they say you must wear makeup and dresses because most women do not wear them either. And even if they did - how much makeup? Just mascara? Just natural lipstick? Just clear nail polish? etc. There are lots of ways to comply without anyone noticing.

You have more choices than you think.

[MariaMx]

Actually, once you're in the thick of it and have found what works for you RLE is nowhere near as scary as one would think. You get used to it very quickly. Besides, there's really no way around it. You can procrastinate all you want but one day you may wake up and find you have just been wasting more time putting things off while making excuses. Once you get to the point where you have to transition you'll just do it, consequences be damned.

[Apples Mk.II]

I lost the faith on my parents ever accepting something about me years ago. Ever since I got my first job I've been saving everything to get far from them, and it is still not possible. They hate everything I think or do, and they are the main  cause of me being in therapy just to stop thinking about killing them every day. Lasering my face? Followed and insulted. Spending money? Followed, insulted and they even try to open my bank letters. Buying a magazine in a language only I can read? I am worse than Hitler. Taking a shower? resource expending criminal that "spends their water". Long hair? Every day shouting to cut it until I was too tired. A different style of clothing? Being called ->-bleeped-<-ott. Taking care about my aspect or ever buying cosmetics or hair products?  You don't want to imagine. Wanting to put a stop to losing my hair? more insults regarding my mental health.
I killed most of my hobbies because I couldn't take it anymore. Every time they see something they don't like, they keep making my life miserable until I give up just to make them stop.


I already explained to that I had no plans of ever going dressed like that, but it does not matter. The local GID center also makes appointments with the parents to make them understand the situation, but I don't want them to understand anything. I just want them out of my life, or me out of their lives. With my brother is the same story, he wants to flee and put the biggest possible distance between themselves

If they were more accepting or I was not forced to have contact with them, none of this would matter. But every small step I try to take is scanned, like if did not have another thing to do. I have lost the count of times I had to say "can't you stop staring at me?". Guess where my social phobia comes from. Also, I don't have any privacy at home.

A new legislation was approved three months ago, but my workplace is in some sort of legal limbo where national policies don't apply, and I have a nice clausule in my contract that more or less says "we can remove you without saying why in the moment we don't like you" In fact, that's how all my predecessors were fired, a minimum slip and they can request another person as if they were buying clothing.


Remove them from the equation and the problem is solved. I don't want to delay this anymore and the GID therapy is already rolling, so let's hope they accept it or I can escape.


Not a lot more to talk. That's my situation. I am not accepted. I was never accepted. I tried for years to earn a bit of respect from them and I never got it. THe only thing they will accept is me being a clone of them.

[Apples Mk.II]

What legislation is in place to protect you as a transitioner?

Looks like I need to work on two different legislations. The local one was upgraded on June to give a bigger degree of protection. But since I am bind to european law at the same time, we run into a bit of a labyrinth. I have looked into our network of agencies, and one of our sisters deals with LGBT issues and discrimination. As the therapy advances, I will probably ask them since we are at the same legal level, but when they see it coming from a mail address in their own domain, it is going to be a bit of a surprise.

[Annah]

On these forums? sometimes there is a need. Not everyone thinks about the issues involved. If you have then so much the better but some people are very unrealistic.

Just be aware that not all stories are tragic ones. I have seen just as many happy stories as horror stories. I was accepted by my family and I am even Pastoring in a church as a transgender.

It's not always doom and gloom. It's like everything else in life. There's a mix and match of this and that when it comes to tragedies and triumphs.

I think you need to talk with them again. Not every woman has long hair or wears a mini-skirt, or wears make-up. I am wearing jeans, no make up and my hair tied back but I am in transition and am in RLE. You do not have to stand out from the crowd and like MariaMx said, you can adjust gradually and slowly and give everyone around you time to adapt.

I believe the wardrobe should reflect the person. For me, I own only one pair of jeans. I enjoy mini skirts and knee length skirts, and I wear make up. I enjoy those things and it fits my personality and who I am.  My family had adjusted to my wardrobe changes (because that was nothing compared to adjusting to my gender change).

There are women out there who look 'butch' or manly. You do not have to be a girly-girl. It does not have to be pink ribbons and flowers and taffetta ballgowns. What is a woman? What defines her as one?

True, but don't discount those of us who enjoy looking "girly girl."

A woman is not defined by the clothes they wear. A woman is designed by who she is. Clothing accentuates her personality. You can butch or all the way to "girly girl." The most important is being true to your real self.

[Annah]

Actually, once you're in the thick of it and have found what works for you RLE is nowhere near as scary as one would think. You get used to it very quickly. Besides, there's really no way around it. You can procrastinate all you want but one day you may wake up and find you have just been wasting more time putting things off while making excuses. Once you get to the point where you have to transition you'll just do it, consequences be damned.

exactly. You're nervous for about a week or two and then poof. It becomes the norm. I started my first day of RLE at a Seminary. Now that's crazy lol

[Apples Mk.II]

Trying to be honest, the real thing that worries me is the voice thing and doing the RLE sounding like a trucker. If I have to be sincere with myself, I'd put the voice as the first most important thing when it comes to give a decent image, more than hormones, surgery or clothing. When I think about "staying hidden as much as necessary", is mostly because the voice thing feels overwhelming and I don't know if I can get it done. My fear is that without the proper voice, I won't be correctly identified, even with all the other things. And I am not exactly good at this or have a melodic voice.

Yesterday I picked the kathe's cd's and a tuner for practising when I am not next to the computer, but I need a bit of help with finding my real limitations and work with what I have. I believe my maximum range is between 180-190, and possibly the 220 hz is not in my possibilities. Is this good or bad (please see the thread I created)

[AbraCadabra]

One can over-estimate the voice (pitch!) thing as well... I have seen this happening.

Get a 90kg person tries sound like a school girl... you must be kidding!

As to RLE I know of cases that, though it's their prerogative to do without, - promptly wound up in a hole FOR YEARS unable to dig themselves out of.

Sad to see such to happen, just because one 'knows better'...

Axélle

[Cindy]

May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

This is fine and maybe it is a reflection of your doubts and inner concerns of where you wish to be in life and who you wish to be.

Stealth was never an option for me. NO way, not in anyway. Yes I went to work gradually changing my appearance but I wasn't fooling anyone, no one was suddenly going to forget my 20 years of being in my professional position. In the end I had to go full time. I knew it and I built myself up for it. My voice doesn't pass.  I was a University lecturer before microphones were used. I was taught to project my voice. Undoing that is nigh impossible. I don't care, I have a male voice and I present female. No one cares, at least if they do they never approach me about it. I shop, go to theatre etc and my voice is mine. No on has 'called' me out, and if they did, so what? I'm me. I'm a woman who lives her life and gets on with it. Shopping- OK  I live my life as me, a woman, I take clothes to the changing room to try them on, every woman does. I don't seek permission, I don't seek approval, I'm not a man in a dress. I'm a normal woman and I expect to be treated as one.

My expectation of society treating me is normal. Tell me of any woman who wakes up gets ready for her day and thinks ' I hope they don't treat me as a man'? Well outside of the marines or something.

I don't have any expectation of being treated as anyone but me. If someone does then they are a fool.

But can I emphasize comments that have been posted to you before. You have to put the effort in to fit in. Woman do not treat men as woman. Woman treat woman as woman and they treat men as men.  Social cues are very important. You have to learn them. All woman and all men learn their social cues as the grow. It is part of teenage development (and before). So no you cannot walk into a group of woman and say Hi I'm a woman what do I do next, no matter what you are wearing. You have to practice. Read magazines, study how woman interact in social context, in shopping centres and in competition etc. The interaction is completely different to how men interact.

Just as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.


Whatever you want to call it; transitioning, being yourself, personal acceptance etc is not easy. There is no magic. There is no easy way. It takes hard work. And the harder you work the easier it is.  Same as most things in life.

Cindy

[Apples Mk.II]

May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

Could be. For the moment, I'm trying to find a decent point where I can get close to the edge but not fall down. Finding what are my possibilities and what I can work with.

Just as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.

To the point of remembering when some clothing has been used before and noticing up to the nail polish. I pay too much attention to details, and occassional slips that grant me a nice "are you sure you aren't gay?"

[Annah]

I have always found it such an oddity when people complain about RLE. This may come across as insensitive and i dont mean it to but if you do not want to present in your chosen gender then you will havr a helluva time with srs.

RLE isnt required for FFS or HRT. I did my RLE without FFS and started RLE 5 months after HRT.

RLE doesnt force you to wear skirts, lip gloss and makeup in order to validate it. If you think that, you neef to research RLE more

[Annah]

Trying to be honest, the real thing that worries me is the voice thing and doing the RLE sounding like a trucker. If I have to be sincere with myself, I'd put the voice as the first most important thing when it comes to give a decent image, more than hormones, surgery or clothing. When I think about "staying hidden as much as necessary", is mostly because the voice thing feels overwhelming and I don't know if I can get it done. My fear is that without the proper voice, I won't be correctly identified, even with all the other things.

Getting my voice right was a must for me before RLE. I took my time to make sure i was ready

[kelly_aus]

May I suggest that you are still finding reasons not to do something rather than finding ways to do something.

This is fine and maybe it is a reflection of your doubts and inner concerns of where you wish to be in life and who you wish to be.

Stealth was never an option for me. NO way, not in anyway. Yes I went to work gradually changing my appearance but I wasn't fooling anyone, no one was suddenly going to forget my 20 years of being in my professional position. In the end I had to go full time. I knew it and I built myself up for it. My voice doesn't pass.  I was a University lecturer before microphones were used. I was taught to project my voice. Undoing that is nigh impossible. I don't care, I have a male voice and I present female. No one cares, at least if they do they never approach me about it. I shop, go to theatre etc and my voice is mine. No on has 'called' me out, and if they did, so what? I'm me. I'm a woman who lives her life and gets on with it. Shopping- OK  I live my life as me, a woman, I take clothes to the changing room to try them on, every woman does. I don't seek permission, I don't seek approval, I'm not a man in a dress. I'm a normal woman and I expect to be treated as one.

My expectation of society treating me is normal. Tell me of any woman who wakes up gets ready for her day and thinks ' I hope they don't treat me as a man'? Well outside of the marines or something.

I don't have any expectation of being treated as anyone but me. If someone does then they are a fool.

Like Cindy, I have a male voice. It's the same one as I've always had. I had some vocal training and as a result, I project my voice all the time - it's not something I really have any control over any more. How I construct a sentence and things like my cadence and intonation have changed - but my pitch has not changed one iota.

But can I emphasize comments that have been posted to you before. You have to put the effort in to fit in. Woman do not treat men as woman. Woman treat woman as woman and they treat men as men.  Social cues are very important. You have to learn them. All woman and all men learn their social cues as the grow. It is part of teenage development (and before). So no you cannot walk into a group of woman and say Hi I'm a woman what do I do next, no matter what you are wearing. You have to practice. Read magazines, study how woman interact in social context, in shopping centres and in competition etc. The interaction is completely different to how men interact.

This is something I've always done - whether I was conscious or not that I was doing it. So far, I've found that just doing what comes naturally is working for me.

Just as a test. Go to work or whatever, meet your usual group of people and write down what everyone is wearing. I realise this is petty, but most woman will know if someone has new shoes, a new dress skirt, hairdo etc. Most men wouldn't recall what they are wearing without looking in the mirror. This, I said, is petty but it is an example of how the different genders interact with themselves.


Whatever you want to call it; transitioning, being yourself, personal acceptance etc is not easy. There is no magic. There is no easy way. It takes hard work. And the harder you work the easier it is.  Same as most things in life.

Cindy

I've learnt that there are 2 things that are vital in transition.. Self acceptance is the first one, because confidence comes along with it. The second is a good sense of humour - it's great to be able to laugh at yourself when you mess things up.

[Nicolette]

Getting my voice right was a must for me before RLE. I took my time to make sure i was ready

It was imperative for me too. But that's me. I was running a phone support service for a new company. I was thrown into the deep end.

[Apples Mk.II]

RLE isnt required for FFS or HRT. I did my RLE without FFS and started RLE 5 months after HRT.

That's something I am perfectly OK with.

RLE doesnt force you to wear skirts, lip gloss and makeup in order to validate it. If you think that, you neef to research RLE more

I only have the steretypical definition (Some like it hot, prior to be allowed to get HRT). Let's see if we can shed some light on the matter, and that no idiot has been toying with the wikipedia:

RLE is a period of time in which transgender individuals live full-time in their preferred gender role, in order to demonstrate that they can function successfully as a member of said gender in society, as well as to be sure that they wish to live as said gender for the rest of their life.

Now, checking the WPATH Version 6.:

1. To maintain full or part-time employment;
2. To function as a student;
3. To function in community-based volunteer activity;
4. To undertake some combination of items 1-3;
5. To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name;
6. To provide documentation that persons other than the therapist know that the patient functions in the desired gender role.

I have the first point, and to get the fourth I'd need to either study again or get into some sort of activity. Point five can't legally be done here, and...

Six. That means coming out to a few persons that can acredit it. But not to explicity come out to somebody, correct? No mention to the full time mode...

Now for the WPATH Version 7:

The seventh version of the SOC, which was published in 2011 and is the most recent edition of the standards, is more ambiguous, and does not list any specific parameters for the RLE.[2] Instead, they merely state that the individual should be living full-time in their preferred gender role continuously for the duration of the RLE. They do also state that documentation of a name and/or gender marker change can be presented as a way of providing proof that the RLE has been completed, but they do not state that a name and/or gender marker change is actually a necessary requirement for completion of the RLE.[2] Taken together, these changes may be some of WPATH's ways of moving away from the encouragement of "gatekeeping," which the SOC have been greatly scrutinized as well as criticized for in the past.[3][4][5]

Seems more lax, but now the full-time appears. I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization. If RLE was to be done after a few months of HRT (along with all the other things to learn). RLE as a prerequisite for HRT is a pain, but if the expert demands it... RLE as soon as you have enough points to work on it, totally. And RLE as a requisite for name change or SRS, I also believe it to be completely mandatory.

[Nicolette]

I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization.

As they say, or not, your kilometerage may vary. For some, changes under HRT can be immense. Keep up the hope, you never know. Just looking at the before and after thread (without FFS) should give you something to think about. Personally, HRT is essential.

[Apples Mk.II]

As they say, or not, your kilometerage may vary. For some, changes under HRT can be immense. Keep up the hope, you never know. Just looking at the before and after thread (without FFS) should give you something to think about. Personally, HRT is essential.

Yup. I do hope they work, at least the fat redistribution (specially in the face), but since it is kind of a lottery, we can't take anything for granted (save for the sterility, of course).

[Beverly]

I know what people have said, that HRT will make little difference in passability, but I had hopes it would help a bit with the feminization.

Last month I was at a local TS group and I talked to someone clearly at the start of their transition from male to female. This person was still dressing male, had a masculine, short haircut and used a masculine voice. He also walked like a man and made male gestures. He was not attempting to wear make up. When I asked him his name he gave me a female name. Ok - everyone starts somewhere. He then told me he was depressed because everyone genders him as male even though he had SRS 3 years previously and he had now given up on HRT as well.

I thought WTF?

There was absolutely nothing feminine about this person. Five years of HRT and 3 years post-op and even *I* gendered him as male. I looked closer and saw he had AA-cup boobs but that was the only external clue that he had ever indulged in HRT. They could easily pass for moobs instead of boobs.

Even now I cannot regard him as anything other than male - the signals and body language were so overpowering. I discussed him with some of the other girls (to warn them not to make my mistake) and they were astonished as well. Every one of them gendered him as male.

It is the scariest transition I have ever seen. He was of the opinion that HRT and SRS were enough and everyone should now treat him as female. I do wonder how the heck he got through RLE, but he is a very unhappy person. We hope he returns this month so that maybe we can gently guide him to a more feminine presentation.

[Nicolette]

It's a given that HRT will never make you walk, talk and act female, but it will feminise one's appearance. I've met similar M2F. They had HRT and SRS, but had no voice training and still had male mannerisms. They were very aggressive to those who persistently misgendered them. They scared the hell out of me, because they were the antithesis of where I wanted to be. Although HRT had feminised their appearance, it's all for naught if the rest doesn't match.
Conversely, I got gendered female purely on HRT in androgynous clothes.