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Does It Really Matter If One Does Or Does Not Believe That Jonah Was Swallowed ?

Started by SarahM777, September 25, 2012, 11:18:47 AM

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Stephe

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 30, 2012, 08:15:46 PM
It is because if you can doubt one portion of it, you can doubt any portion of it.  Plenary verbal inspiration and literal interpretation are a house of cards.  If the Noahic story is not 100% as written, then the validity of my salvation is in doubt.

While I guess then this has no relevance to me. "My salvation" isn't why I'm a Christian nor is salvation the reason God sent Christ to our planet, YMMV on that one.
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Stephe

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tekla

"If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims."

― Dalai Lama XIV
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Stephe

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 30, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
Does it really matter if it's a snake or a dragon? I just think we get to worked upon the minor hair splitting details. We need to be able to get the message of what is being said.

This and honestly if people don't even get the "love one another" part of Christs message that MANY Christians seem to miss, who cares if Jonah swallowed a whale or not? 
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tekla

It matters - at least to me, who's on the outside looking in - because the more picking and choosing that's going on, the more it resembles a cafeteria or a buffet line and the less it begins to look like a religion or anything faith-based.  I mean if Jonah isn't 'real' (in that it didn't actually happen) and is instead an allegory, then were do you stop?  Is that true with the virgin birth?  Did Joshua Fit de Battle ob Jericho, or not?  Was David not a divine king, but just a guy more brutal and with more lust for power than other men - you know, the kind of person who gets to be king in other places?

Cause once you start traveling down that path, I'll tell you where it ends, it ends with Karl Rahner and Hans Kung.  Thus: Resurrection does not mean either a return to life in space and time or a continuation of life in space and time but the assumption into that incomprehensible and comprehensive last and first reality which we call God.

So, if Jonah isn't really in the belly of the whale for what - 3 days, hummm - then maybe after 3 days the body is still in the tomb and the Resurrection is not a real event, but a metaphysical event of the spirit.  Edward Schillebeeckx has also written along the same lines, and like Kung got himself excommunicated for his troubles.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Sarah Louise

Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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SarahM777

Quote from: Stephe on October 01, 2012, 09:27:28 AM
This and honestly if people don't even get the "love one another" part of Christs message that MANY Christians seem to miss, who cares if Jonah swallowed a whale or not?

That's way so many see Christians as being false. Can't blame them. (Especially after spending a bit too much time researching Westboro Baptist Church) If that is all they have seen it's no wonder that so many can't stand or stomach those who claim to be fundamentalist's. It's repulsive,vile and down right hateful. How in anyone's right mind would you want to have anything to do with it? It certainly is not lovely,good or wholesome.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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SarahM777

Quote from: tekla on October 01, 2012, 09:57:57 AM
It matters - at least to me, who's on the outside looking in - because the more picking and choosing that's going on, the more it resembles a cafeteria or a buffet line and the less it begins to look like a religion or anything faith-based.  I mean if Jonah isn't 'real' (in that it didn't actually happen) and is instead an allegory, then were do you stop?  Is that true with the virgin birth?  Did Joshua Fit de Battle ob Jericho, or not?  Was David not a divine king, but just a guy more brutal and with more lust for power than other men - you know, the kind of person who gets to be king in other places?

Cause once you start traveling down that path, I'll tell you where it ends, it ends with Karl Rahner and Hans Kung.  Thus: Resurrection does not mean either a return to life in space and time or a continuation of life in space and time but the assumption into that incomprehensible and comprehensive last and first reality which we call God.

So, if Jonah isn't really in the belly of the whale for what - 3 days, hummm - then maybe after 3 days the body is still in the tomb and the Resurrection is not a real event, but a metaphysical event of the spirit.  Edward Schillebeeckx has also written along the same lines, and like Kung got himself excommunicated for his troubles.

Agreed,but if we look at 3 days in our terms and not in Hebraic terms,instead of as little as 38 hours in the belly of the whale (Which is considered three days) up to that which we consider three days or 72 hours,it does make a big difference. We have to remember that the Old Testament was given to the Israelites and not Gentiles.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Stephe

Quote from: tekla on October 01, 2012, 09:57:57 AM
It matters - at least to me, who's on the outside looking in - because the more picking and choosing that's going on, the more it resembles a cafeteria or a buffet line and the less it begins to look like a religion or anything faith-based.

I don't believe in the Buddhist concepts but it doesn't mean the message brought to us by the Dali Lama is wrong or isn't something I should follow.

And honestly I don't think the old testament has a whole lot to do with what Christ's message to us. Or what being a Christian means.  Wasn't the whole point: he brought us a "new covenant"?

And again, I think too many people see religion as a selfish "way to salvation" rather than how to live and treat others while we are alive.  You will not find enlightenment or salvation etc doing that. And if you listen to the message delivered by Jesus, the Dali Lama and others, they all say this same thing. Stop focusing on yourself and care for others.

Getting lost in details is not seeing the forest for the trees.
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Ave

Quote from: tekla on October 01, 2012, 09:57:57 AM
It matters - at least to me, who's on the outside looking in - because the more picking and choosing that's going on, the more it resembles a cafeteria or a buffet line and the less it begins to look like a religion or anything faith-based.  I mean if Jonah isn't 'real' (in that it didn't actually happen) and is instead an allegory, then were do you stop?  Is that true with the virgin birth?  Did Joshua Fit de Battle ob Jericho, or not?  Was David not a divine king, but just a guy more brutal and with more lust for power than other men - you know, the kind of person who gets to be king in other places?

Cause once you start traveling down that path, I'll tell you where it ends, it ends with Karl Rahner and Hans Kung.  Thus: Resurrection does not mean either a return to life in space and time or a continuation of life in space and time but the assumption into that incomprehensible and comprehensive last and first reality which we call God.

So, if Jonah isn't really in the belly of the whale for what - 3 days, hummm - then maybe after 3 days the body is still in the tomb and the Resurrection is not a real event, but a metaphysical event of the spirit.  Edward Schillebeeckx has also written along the same lines, and like Kung got himself excommunicated for his troubles.

that make a lot of sense tekla. However, not for the same reason that someone who is a christian would think.  :)
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
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Stephe

Quote from: tekla on October 01, 2012, 09:57:57 AM

Cause once you start traveling down that path, I'll tell you where it ends, it ends with Karl Rahner and Hans Kung.  Thus: Resurrection does not mean either a return to life in space and time or a continuation of life in space and time but the assumption into that incomprehensible and comprehensive last and first reality which we call God.


Only if you are looking for a way to prove to yourself that you can just ignore everything in their message since you have proven to yourself "it isn't real"..

Lots of Christians who have faith in God don't believe everything in the bible literally happened. You don't get to "tell" people that unless we literally believe everything in this one book that we therefor shouldn't have faith in God or that my religion is a sham. You can make that choice but your "belief" is just that. Many people, can't see the forest from studying the trees and/or trying to make religion complex.
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Stephe

Quote from: Ave on October 01, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
However, not for the same reason that someone who is a christian would think.  :)

So why don't you explain to us what "someone who is a christian would think."?

That's an awfully broad brush you're wielding.
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Shantel

Sadly there is a brilliant scientist confined in a grotesquely crippled body, never knowing the warmth of a lover, unable to perform even the most rudimentary physical task, but understands the balance, order and symmetry of the universe and yet continually denies the existence of the God who knew his heart before he was born. And then there is another astrophysicist who proclaimed during his "Cosmos" series that he and many of his contemporaries know for certain that there is a parallel universe that we can't see or feel that is just outside of the dimension we know as time.
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Ps 53:1)
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Annah

Quote from: Shantel on October 01, 2012, 02:08:15 PM
Sadly there is a brilliant scientist confined in a grotesquely crippled body, never knowing the warmth of a lover,

Are you talking about Stephen Hawkin? That guy has had more action than I ever will lol
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-02-28/entertainment/31106554_1_lap-dances-insider-physicists

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peky

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Annah

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Shantel

You missed the point, it neither matters if Jonah was swallowed by a whale or not, nor does it matter that Stephen Hawking is a real horn dog or whatever, and no matter what anyone here believes or doesn't believe, the issue has been settled before the world existed.
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Ps 53:1)
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tekla

The debate here was not about the existence or non-existence of god, but about the truth and varsity of a bunch of stories handed down since the Bronze Age.  Did the whale swallow Jonah and then ralph him up a few days later unharmed?  Did god make man out of dust and woman out of dust and the rib of man?  Did god send bears to eat children who taunted Elijah?  (I hope so, that scores god some pretty solid points in my book.)  Did Jesus walk on water?

And those are just the fun ones.  There are some very serious ones too.

Like many other people who have read it, and contemplated it, the story of Abraham and Issac is profoundly disturbing.
Are women inferior to men. (and that one is all over the book, and if so, I think you believers better quite down here because men-folk are talking, better get into the kitchen and make us a pie.)
Is slavery OK?
Is rape OK if you pay the girls father later?
Is the heart deceitful above all else?

And, once you start down a path of saying 'well this is no longer in effect' and 'that one is not true, it's meant as an allegory' then what are you left with?  That quote above is not mine, but from Hans Kung, and he is not alone in re-thinking the Resurrection as not a literal event, but an allegory for how Christ's love can transform us in day to day life, for everyday that we forgive, and accept forgiveness we are resurrected, we have triumphed over the death of our souls and are born anew in Christ's love.  I mean if Jonah is an allegory, who's to say that the Resurrection isn't an allegory too?

Of course, what that says in the end is that there is no life everlasting, no heaven, no hell, just this life, and we should find ways of making it better and not resenting it as some sort of test. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Shantel

Quote from: tekla on October 02, 2012, 03:24:09 PM
Of course, what that says in the end is that there is no life everlasting, no heaven, no hell, just this life, and we should find ways of making it better and not resenting it as some sort of test.

Bottom line hasn't changed no matter what an individual's level of disbelief or how much they may hate the message!
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Ps 53:1)

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Annah

Quote from: Shantel on October 02, 2012, 06:52:33 PM
Bottom line hasn't changed no matter what an individual's level of disbelief or how much they may hate the message!
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Ps 53:1)

I don't think anyone is arguing that. What people are bringing up is how Bible Literalism can change how one views the message that is there.
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