Requiring lower surgery to change gender markers - justified or totally whack?

[Anon]

So, although every country (or state/province) has different laws surrounding getting your ID to reflect the gender you live as - whether it's no problem, or impossible, or you can change everything except your birth certificate or whatever - there's one common theme: the requirement of "SRS".

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on what they personally consider "SRS", and if it should be mandatory in all cases, or if T and consistently presenting/passing as male should be enough for the law.






IMHO, I think the definition of SRS should be decided by the individual and their GP/endocrinologist/psychiatrist/whoever. Of course, it should still be irreversible to stop people from hopping between legal genders.
I live in BC, where T and top surg are covered by MSP, but not any type of lower surgery - even though the government requires at least a hysterectomy to change your birth certificate.
Since I'm only 18, I'm really troubled by being forced to live legally identified as female when I am very obviously male, simply because I don't feel mature enough to make the permanent decision of whether or not I will at some point want to have biological children.
I can't comprehend why Vital Statistics would want all transitioned transsexual people to be sterile - because really, if it was only about "making sure you're sure", the permanent removal of my tits, irreversible changes of male puberty, and money spent on name changes and doctor's fees should suffice.....probably just slamming my head against a brick wall with these people though. UGH.

[Twin Hammer Tommy]

I voted no.   Here in Massachusetts the law for changing birth certificate gender is a doctor's note saying surgery has been "completed" but doesn't specify any more than that.   To the best of my understanding, people have gotten away with just top surgery.  Driver's license only requires a note from a physician/therapist/social worker affirming that you are living as your new gender and are likely to continue doing so.

In my opinion, regardless of any hormones or surgery, your IDs should all reflect the gender you live and present as.

[aleon515]

I'm not sure I even care if people "hop" between genders. Put the money down and let them "hop". Perhaps it would save a few people from getting SRS and regretting it later. How often is this going to happen and who cares? It hurts no one. I think the perceived threat is to the gender binary.

--Jay J

[Adam (birkin)]

I'm undecided. If someone is, say, 2 years on T, totally passes and lives as male, but can't afford any form of bottom surgery, what sense is there in them having a female gender marker on anything?

On the other hand, because I have a female marker, my hysterectomy will be covered when I get the appointment. So.

[Ruthven]

No way should it be required.

I'm not sure I even care if people "hop" between genders. Put the money down and let them "hop". Perhaps it would save a few people from getting SRS and regretting it later. How often is this going to happen and who cares? It hurts no one. I think the perceived threat is to the gender binary.

--Jay J

Totally agree. Especially with the underlined.

[wheat thins are delicious]

Depending on the state and even the judge a specially worded letter after top surgery is enough.

[Natkat]

I vote No,
I feel its sick that the goverment should force us to have a surgery on such a sensetive area to gain acceptence for our everyday life.

putting it out in another way:
why should I suport surgery who dosen't infact the healt, who is expensive and very risky, because thats what the norm expect us to do?

I belive for practical information being trans should be putted together with your medical information and such,
cause there is some situations where it can be relevant that your trans for your health. but it shouldnt be something for your regular life who would mean you couldnt change your gender marked. 

[AdamMLP]

It's completely ridiculous.  I can halfway see their reasoning, they need to stop people just changing their gender willy-nilly encase people do it to try and evade taxes or debts or something, but it's completely unfair what they're asking us to do in some places.  Not only are they making people fit their ideals of what male and female are -- by having the 'correct' genitals -- but they're saying that we have to go through surgery, which carries potentially life-threatening complications.  Any general anesthesia carries a risk of death.  It's not common but it happens, and it boils down to our governments saying, "If you want to be seen by yourself in the eyes of the law you have to put your life at risk.  If you won't do that then clearly you were never a man/woman to start with."  It's disgusting.

[sneakersjay]

I had all of mine changed with top surgery, but dont believe they require that for SS/passports any more.  My BC did require lower surgery, but all that entailed was a notarized statement from my doctor stating that they had examined me and I was male, because they only wanted a statement from a US doctor.


Jay

[insideontheoutside]

I can also see why requirements such as this exist. Let's face it, the world would get "weird" for lack of a better word if everyone could just change their gender marker on legal docs/IDs at will (by just filling some papers and paying a fee). I'm sure there's people out there who would fetishize it as well or simply do it to "gain access" to gender specific spaces, etc. Have to face facts that not everyone out there is a cool human being.

That said, I think there should be case by case exceptions. Plenty of trans folks are okay with their genitals. Should they be forced to have surgery to change that marker if they're otherwise happy with themselves and living as their chosen gender? I don't think so. Likewise, if someone doesn't have the funds but they want and plan to have surgery should they be held back simply because of that? I don't think so.

There's a problem in society with "passing" of course. Actually, I think that's the main problem here. If you're trans, it's usually very important to you (and the therapists) that you pass before you get the marker change. If you happen to be the few where it's not important to you and you can handle people misgendering you and you've gone through therapy and otherwise determined you're trans I think a consideration should be made for legal gender change in that instance too. Not sure if the rest of society, etc. would agree with me though.

[Nygeel]

Requiring some sort of surgery to change gender markers is a combination of things...classist (not all people can afford surgery), ableist (not all people are able to get surgery due to health problems), and a little cissexist (we shouldn't have to make our genitals conform to what is considered okay to get the safety of a gender marker change).

[aleon515]

I can also see why requirements such as this exist. Let's face it, the world would get "weird" for lack of a better word if everyone could just change their gender marker on legal docs/IDs at will (by just filling some papers and paying a fee). I'm sure there's people out there who would fetishize it as well or simply do it to "gain access" to gender specific spaces, etc. Have to face facts that not everyone out there is a cool human being.

I'm sure that's a reason given. I don't think that it is a real reason though. What's to stop some "bad guy" from crossdressing? No one needs to change gender to cause problems. If they were really going to do this to cause problems. I don't think it would really end up to be any kind of revuenue stream.  I think that Nygeel got it about right. I think the problem with it in society's terms is the gender binary. Got to preserve that. I don't know that they even know the whole concept. Society is uncomfortable with anyone getting out of line (in the gender sense) so they have to police it.

--Jay J

[Sly]

I can see at least hormones being a requirement for getting a gender marker change.  Requiring full SRS is just overkill, though.  Phallo and meta both cost ridiculous amounts and aren't covered by insurance.  They're difficult for anyone to afford and some people just can't save up that much, let alone people who don't want bottom surgery in the first place.

[Kevin Peña]

Well, as someone who won't ever be able to afford SRS or the weeks off of work it requires, I think it is pretty ludicrous that anyone would require such intense surgery for a gender marker change. For those trans folks who pass physically, it's not fair that they have to be outed at every possible instance requiring a legal ID. We want to live as our true genders, and we can;t do that if we are always labeled as trans by our ID's incongruent gender marker. HRT, voice training, and tolerating all of the stigma that comes with being trans should be enough to prove that we are serious and not just fetish seekers.

Plus, what about FTMs? They're bottom surgery hardly has good results...

[John Smith]

The required surgeries for FTM individuals is usually top surgery and oophorectomy (removing the ovaries - sterilisation) I believe.

[Kevin Peña]

Oh, so you don't need the phalloplasty? Well, good for you guys.

[Nygeel]

I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

The most ideal situation would be not having gender markers in the first place.

[eli77]

I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

That's how it works in Ontario now. The world seems to still be spinning so far.

[justmeinoz]

I have two friends who are Intersex, so I really think that apart from medical issues the whole idea of gender is really useless.  As someone on a film I saw pointed out,  cisgendered men with a pot belly have to sit to pee, so the penis is really irrelevant. Notice it is always the penis, in our male dominated culture too.

Karen.

[Pippa]

As far as I am aware, lower surgery is not required in the UK to change your gender marker.  However, it is significant evidence to a gender panel that you wish to live in your chosen gender for the rest of your days!