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I put a post against androgyny in the activism section.

Started by Kendall, May 02, 2007, 07:19:59 AM

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Kendall

What do you think of the logic, or lack there of of what was said in parts of Lee Grady's article I put here?
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,12933.0.html

I put it in that section since it was basically a call to the readers of the Forerunner which is describe as a site for:
QuoteAt this web site are articles from Christian newspapers published by university students from the United States, Russia, Ukraine, Latin America and China! We also host several web sites of related Christian organizations involved in promoting Revival in the Church and the Reformation of society.

The writer is very hostile towards any blurring of gender lines. Calling it Cultural Bone Rot and sexual suicide, and perverting of all that is natural and normal.

And calls out "Real" Men and Women to publically stand against the "the anti-gender activists" (aka those breaking the gender norms).

I bolded the points that I felt were most emphasized in Lee Grady's writing. You can respond here or in the original post.

It still makes me mad to read it.

KK
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Casey

I don't normally check out the activism section, so I wouldn't even have seen your post if you hadn't also posted here.

I replied in that thread, but basically that person is an idiot, their position is typically considered Fundie, and quite frankly they aren't worth the anger. Now, if they attempt to legally do anything about their position, sound the trumpets and I'll come running. But as long as they're just spouting off, I'll let their idiocy speak for itself.
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Attis

I posted my views as well, KK. Ultimately, he's a hack writer, and even answering his Bible quotes is pointless since he never provides non-Bible proof to back it up [e.g. a historical account or archaeological evidence]. You did good, but I suggest to you not to give these idiots any attention, all it does is give them more sheep for their wolves to consume.

-- Brede
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Kendall

I just... changed a few words and concepts.... and ...edited what was said  to make my version of the opposite of what sie said.

Yes there are no facts, .... but thats the point, to show that it is just words and trying to envoke a emotional outpouring.
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Maebh

Quote from: Attis on May 02, 2007, 09:57:57 AM
I posted my views as well, KK. Ultimately, he's a hack writer, and even answering his Bible quotes is pointless since he never provides non-Bible proof to back it up [e.g. a historical account or archaeological evidence]. You did good, but I suggest to you not to give these idiots any attention, all it does is give them more sheep for their wolves to consume.

-- Brede

Exactly and to use a Biblical image " Let them cry in the wilderness". >:D

HLLL&R

Maebh
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Louise

Since you asked for comments on the "logic" of this article, I thought I would respond.

"Logic" refers to identifying the structure of arguments, and to assessing the strengths and weaknesses of arguments in terms of the relationship between premises and conclusions.

The article in question is full of the typical informal fallacies that are found in political and social discussions in popular media, both liberal and conservative.  This article starts off with a fairly blatant "ad populum" fallacy that blames the blurring of gender roles on the twin evil forces of education and entertainment.  It goes down hill from there.

The core of the argument is the appeal from the assumption that gender roles are natural to the conclusion that blurring gender roles will lead to a decline in the family and that a decline in the family will lead to a decline in society.  This is not a very original argument and is the basic argument of the "family values" conservatives.

The fundamental assumption of this argument is that gender roles are natural.  Religious writers such as the author of this article put this in terms of gender roles as made by God, not by men.  No evidence in support of this assumption is given other than a quote from scripture.  Since the article is addressed to fellow believers, this is all the evidence this author deems necessary.  For anyone else it is an example of the fallacy of appeal to irrelevant authority.

The assumption about gender roles manages to confuse gender roles with sexual orientation and with work roles.  This is an example of the fallacy of ambiguity.

This ambiguity is crucial in the next step of the argument, making the connection between the breakdown of gender roles to a breakdown in the family.  The unstated assumption here is that the family is an arrangement between a biological male and a biological female for the purpose of procreating children.  The argument attempts to conclude that blurring of the differences between men and women will threaten this arrangement.  This is an example of the slippery slope fallacy.

Finally the argument wants us to think that a breakdown in the "traditional" family will lead to a breakdown in society and to the general decline of "Western Civilization".  Family structures do reflect changes in social structure.  In the times of the Hebrew prophets, society was agricultural.  Among nomadic herdsmen, like Abraham, a patriarchal and polygamous family structure fit the social and economic structure.  With the emergence of a more settled agricultural society, the family structure changed to a monogamous family.  Industrialization further changed the family structure to account for the separation of economic work activity from domestic activity.  The post industrial economy is now changing contemporary family structures.  Note that changes in society bring changes in the family.  To argue that changes in the family cause changes in society confuses cause with effect.  The technical name for this is the fallacy of "non causa pro causa".

The argument does have a structure.  And it commits fallacies at just about every step.
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Kendall

I agree with you Louise.

I must ammend what I also said, that the article does present some facts if you look at the original post, not the chunks I copied. But if you look at the list of facts, in no way are they "bad things", or attempted to connect to any cause or effect beyond what Louise just said. They were not connected to the argument, beyond the logic that "god doesnt want men to be women, or women to be men". So the facts presented could be good facts, and I think they are good.

Thanks for presenting the structure.

kk
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Shana A

Oy! I won't bother to argue scripture with this author, I'm Jewish (and agnostic), and haven't read the new testament. I have read some fascinating Jewish perspectives on androgyny and transgender though. Rabbis have discussed this for centuries, and there are various talmudic writings that deal with gender issues. They don't dispute that g-d created more than two genders, most of the questions simply deal with which customs the intersexed or transgendered person should observe. Even g-d is considered to not be a specific gender.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Kendall

What are the Jewish arguments against gender and gender expression,  transgendered and intersexed persons, if there are any? I am curious now, or is ->-bleeped-<- fully accepted in the Jewish society. I havent read anything or heard anything from that perspective. The author claims that it is unified with a christian stance.

The author said

QuoteAmerica's (or any country with similar culture) gradual drift from Judeo-Christian morality has now led us into the danger zone I have just described. One writer recently stated that the last twenty years in this country, in terms of public policy, could be described as"the homosexualization of America (or world if you look outside what the person is saying)." But we did not get into this predicament without the help of an elite group of policymakers who have adopted an anti-family, anti-male, and anti-female agenda.


The author claims the morality is the same. I imagine there are some anti-transgedered jewish stances.

It did make me wonder what the Jewish stance was compared to their version of christianity, and why the author was using that word, or just making stuff up to try bringing in a "second" religion that is said to be unified in purpose with their christianity. Which wouldnt surprise me considering the other evidence for the argument.
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Maebh

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on May 06, 2007, 11:14:13 AM

The author claims the morality is the same. I imagine there are some anti-transgedered jewish stances.


I wouldn't know too much about that, but eight years ago Israel send Danna (a MTF TS) at the Eurovision Song Contest... and SHE WON!

Quote

But the most important development is Danna's Eurovision success. In November 1997 she was selected to represent Israel in the May 1998 Eurovision contest in Birmingham. Her selection raised a furor among ultra-Orthodox Jews. Typical of the reaction was the assertion of Rabbi Shlomo Ben Izri, health minister and Shas party representative: "Dana is an abomination. Even in Sodom there was nothing like it" (La Guardia 1997). Thanks to Danna's impassioned denunciations of the ultra-Orthodox, she has become a kind of heroine for secular Israelis (Sharrock 1997). But despite her embrace by the liberal Israeli establishment, she seems determined to continue her subtle mocking of Zionism, as evidenced by her statement to Sky News after she was selected to represent Israel at Eurovision: "As far as I'm concerned, I was elected to represent Israel's citizens, not the Jewish state. Which means that I'll go to the Eurovision as the representative of the Christians and Muslims who live in Israel as well."[62] In May 1998 Danna, at age twenty-six, took first place in the Eurovision contest, singing her song "Diva" before an estimated global television audience of 100 million. Thousands of fans celebrated her win by dancing all night in Tel Aviv's Rabin Square, chanting "Danna, Queen of Israel."


There you have it, or at least a glimpse.

HLLL&R

Maebh

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Shana A

QuoteWhat are the Jewish arguments against gender and gender expression,  transgendered and intersexed persons, if there are any? I am curious now, or is ->-bleeped-<- fully accepted in the Jewish society. I havent read anything or heard anything from that perspective. The author claims that it is unified with a christian stance.

Centuries old texts acknowledge the existence of intersexed and eunuchs as part of the diversity of creation, and discuss how various gendered laws and/or customs would effect them, such as the ritual bath, etc. From the little that I've been able to find on the subject, it seems to end up being a mix of both male and female customs. In modern Judaism, ->-bleeped-<- is accepted or rejected about the same amount as in any other religion, ultra Orthodox tend to be very critical against TS, liberal Jews accept it. There is currently a handful of openly transgendered rabbis, cantors or students who wish to become rabbis and cantors.

I'm often quite annoyed by stances such as this author who claim their beliefs as being Judeo-Christian and thus shared by Jewish people. A Christian who throws around old testament quotes is only looking at a small part of the picture, in the Jewish tradition, the talmudic discussion about the texts and their meaning is equally important.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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