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Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

Started by Carlita, December 18, 2012, 04:10:41 AM

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O_O

Trans people in support groups accept one another as male and female because they can relate from their own experiences.  People who cannot relate cannot "accept".  Someone who has never had the experience of being trans can't appreciate what a trans person can, cannot accept what a trans person can (in my experience of roughly 12 years since I started this process this has been my experience.

You have to explain what you mean by 'accept', you have to define the word or rather the words you are using.  If 'acceptance' means someone is okay with you or okay with your transition then that is 'acceptance'.  'Experiencing' you as female is different from accepting you as a trans woman.  Being okay with your transition, being okay with your wearing female clothing, being okay with how you act or talk or dress yourself is 'acceptance' but 'experiencing' you as female is not the same thing.

Accepting you into the group is 'acceptance', it does not equal 'experiencing' you as female.  "Accepting you as one of the girls is acceptance but experiencing you as female is not a conscious choice.  Human beings cannot make a conscious choice on how to experience you.  They either know you on a subconscious level of female based on gender cues or they know you based upon conflicting information.

If you watch a YouTube video of a UFO and then someone shows you evidence that it was faked you can't experience that video the same way ever again, no matter how much you choose to "accept" it you won't look at it the same way, you can't.  It isn't a conscious choice you can make.  Instead when you find out the video was faked when you see it again you will pick out details that confirm for you it was faked.

When trans women find out some other woman transitioned they are able to 'accept' her because they know what it is to be trans, they know what it is to be female even when one's body is male.  Trans women can therefore view transition as a way of manifesting what is already there, as a way of overcoming a disability or revealing the truth, non-trans people experience it altogether differently!  Non-trans people cannot relate from an experience they have never had, the experience of being female even when one's body is male so to them when they find out a woman transitioned they garner an entirely different "truth" and how they experience that trans woman is permanently changed.  Non-trans people experience male body as male mind, female body as female mind.  You can tell them there is a world where up is down but it won't make any practical sense to them and it won't allow them to experience being another gender.

Transsexualism was once referred to as a conundrum.  A conundrum is something that cannot be understood, a riddle.  Because in order to understand it you have to experience it for yourself.  Otherwise male is body and mind, female is body and mind and there is no separation of the body and mind because no one else (the majority of people) have never experienced life that way and it is inconceivable to them.  Most people don't want to bother with something they cannot grasp (especially when there is no reward in it for them), they have their own lives to live so they will casually 'accept' you.  But how they 'experience' you is not a conscious choice they are even remotely capable of making.  And think about it, lots of people experience GD (gender dysphoria) but how many of those people are willing to make the effort to change their lives and yet we expect others to change how they relate to us?  Education and continuing education allow people to accept us as trans, how they experience us can never be an issue of 'education' rather it is an unconscious choice based either upon subconsciously recognized gender cues or conflicting information.

Trans women can accept another woman when it is revealed that she is trans because their truth is that she has always been female and this is the conundrum, non-trans people cannot accept that she has always been female because they 'know' she was male and that changes how non-trans people see her.  Sure non-trans people can choose to "accept" her but how they will 'experience' her is not a conscious choice they are even remotely capable of making.

Could someone be so intoxicatingly female that the gender cues she gives off could over-ride any conflicting information that people have heard about her?  This isn't an all-black or all-white world, different people experience things differently and have different motivations.  My parents accept me as female but they don't experience me as female.  They are kind - out of their love for me and have made changes to incorporate me into their lives, pronouns and such...  Lots of people are willing to do that because we tend to live in a polite Society or at least one where most people want to avoid offense.  I was in a very sexual relationship with a guy who was super into me and he probably knows I transitioned.  He never said anything about knowing I transitioned probably because he didn't want to loose me.  But it got too creepy for me because we have mutual friends and really he wasn't a good guy anyway.  And my mutual friends talk, lord do they talk, there was no way he hadn't heard about me but did that stop him from having sex with me, no.

Would he have been happy to stay in a relationship with me for the rest of my life?  Yes.  Very much so.  And I think his penis accepted me as female but his mind probably had some conflicting chatter in it.  If his sexuality had ever been questioned because of his relationship with me he would have had to ask himself questions that other men will never be posed with.
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: O_O on December 21, 2012, 10:28:09 PM
Trans people in support groups accept one another as male and female because they can relate blah blah blah. Experiencing and accepting  are different blah blah blah.

What does all that even matter? Honestly it sounds to me like you're making big deal out of nothing and speaking your worst fears as knowledge. I don't give a good gosh damn about if somebody knows my struggle. Nor do I care if somebody "casually accepts" me... whatever that means. I don't want anything out of people but to see me as my gender, which as far as I see, is happening.

From what it seems, you word "experiencing" as code for "what they secretly think" ... which is projecting. Not everybody has a narrow view that cannot be changed over time. In fact most peoples minds, in my experience, do evolve. Maybe yours doesn't, though. Maybe when somebody transitions in your mind, they're forever their original sex, so therefore you think everybody else is incapable of switching perceptions over time.

If you want to be 100% stealth, go ahead. Good luck with that. But it seems like you're fabricating views that are extremely cynical and then expressing them to justify it. Honestly I bet there are tons of significant others, family members, and allies out there that would take drastic offense to some of the stuff you're saying.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Stephe

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 21, 2012, 11:33:44 PM
What does all that even matter? Honestly it sounds to me like you're making big deal out of nothing and speaking your worst fears as knowledge. I don't give a good gosh damn about if somebody knows my struggle. Nor do I care if somebody "casually accepts" me... whatever that means. I don't want anything out of people but to see me as my gender, which as far as I see, is happening.

From what it seems, you word "experiencing" as code for "what they secretly think" ... which is projecting. Not everybody has a narrow view that cannot be changed over time. In fact most peoples minds, in my experience, do evolve. Maybe yours doesn't, though. Maybe when somebody transitions in your mind, they're forever their original sex, so therefore you think everybody else is incapable of switching perceptions over time.

If you want to be 100% stealth, go ahead. Good luck with that. But it seems like you're fabricating views that are extremely cynical and then expressing them to justify it. Honestly I bet there are tons of significant others, family members, and allies out there that would take drastic offense to some of the stuff you're saying.

Thank you for posting this. I've had this stuff shoveled on me so many times in the past from the stealth crowd I could puke.

Just this line here is so insulting to the majority of humans alive on this planet....

"Sure non-trans people can choose to "accept" her but how they will 'experience' her is not a conscious choice they are even remotely capable of making."

It speaks volumes about the person who wrote this. As you said, if someone feels like -living a lie- in total stealth because they don't trust others, have at it. I KNOW too many people who aren't like this. But then again I hang out with mostly liberal open minded people not narrow minded conservative bigots. The vile spewed her in the thread is as bad or worse than the garbage the hard core religious nuts dish out. Sounds like to me a reason to be stealth would be to hide my past from people like O_O...
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: Stephe on December 22, 2012, 12:10:33 AM
But then again I hang out with mostly liberal open minded people not narrow minded conservative bigots. The vile spewed her in the thread is as bad or worse than the garbage the hard core religious nuts dish out. Sounds like to me a reason to be stealth would be to hide my past from people like O_O...

Girl... I know plenty of conservative people that don't act like jerks enough that I would feel uncomfortable with them knowing...
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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kelly_aus

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 21, 2012, 11:33:44 PM
If you want to be 100% stealth, go ahead. Good luck with that. But it seems like you're fabricating views that are extremely cynical and then expressing them to justify it. Honestly I bet there are tons of significant others, family members, and allies out there that would take drastic offense to some of the stuff you're saying.

My mother, for one, would be hugely offended by some of the things O_O has said. I'm sure some of my friends and other family would be the same.

Quote from: Stephe on December 22, 2012, 12:10:33 AM
It speaks volumes about the person who wrote this. As you said, if someone feels like -living a lie- in total stealth because they don't trust others, have at it. I KNOW too many people who aren't like this. But then again I hang out with mostly liberal open minded people not narrow minded conservative bigots. The vile spewed her in the thread is as bad or worse than the garbage the hard core religious nuts dish out. Sounds like to me a reason to be stealth would be to hide my past from people like O_O...

It does speak volumes, Stephe..

I've found trans people to be more 'judgemental' than any one else. I don't hide my past, but I also don't have 'I'm a trans person!' tattooed on my forehead. Most people seem to see me as no more or less than I really am - a woman.

Trans people, however, will tell me I need to do or say all sorts of things in order to 'pass' better.. Funny, my experience in life tells me I'm doing just fine without any of that 'stuff'.. When you out yourself mid-convo and the person you are speaking to has an incredulous look on their face, it means they don't believe you..
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 22, 2012, 12:37:22 AM
When you out yourself mid-convo and the person you are speaking to has an incredulous look on their face, it means they don't believe you..

lol I love that look!
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Catherine Sarah

Hi O_O,

Quote from: O_O on December 21, 2012, 10:28:09 PM
Could someone be so intoxicatingly female that the gender cues she gives off could over-ride any conflicting information that people have heard about her?

In answer to that question, the answer is unequivocally, Absolutely Yes!!

For clarity of your post, could you define your term "experience". I understood your interpretation of "accept(ance)", but I'm not clear on what you mean by experiencing someone. Thank you in advance.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa Huggs
Catherine




If you're in Australia and are subject to Domestic Violence or Violence against Women, call 1800-RESPECT (1800-737-7328) for assistance.
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Carlita

Quote from: Ave on December 21, 2012, 05:05:41 PM
You can have meaningful relationships with woman even as a man.

Absolutely, and I have done ... and still do. But they are conducted on the basis that the woman sees me as a man - hopefully a nice man, who is maybe more empathetic and more interested in the female condition than the average male, but a man nonetheless.

My whole question was based on my concern that it would not be possible for women to relate to me as easily, or comfortably after transition ... whether they could alter our relationship from the friendship that a man and woman can have to the friendship that exists between two women. And those relationships are NOT the same thing.

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O_O

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on December 22, 2012, 01:30:26 AM
Hi O_O,

In answer to that question, the answer is unequivocally, Absolutely Yes!!

For clarity of your post, could you define your term "experience". I understood your interpretation of "accept(ance)", but I'm not clear on what you mean by experiencing someone. Thank you in advance.

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa Huggs
Catherine


That's an interesting question.  I mean it in it's simplest sense but I can see how it is open to interpretation, as long as the one who is having the experience is in fact experiencing the individual in question as female.

This discussion is not to me about absolutes, I can see the yin and yang of it.  There is the positive space effect coexisting with the negative space, somewhere they find harmony.  Where you find harmony, only you can know for certain.
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O_O

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 21, 2012, 11:33:44 PM
What does all that even matter?


It only matters if it matters to you.  Remember how I suggested that people should probably completely ignore what I was saying in my earlier post?

Transition is an amazing thing and an individual can really blossom and change, I found that transition was profound in that it changed how I experienced life, the world and social interactions, it also changed how I experience myself.  Some people say they are the same person after transition.  Neither experience is right or wrong but I do cherish my experiences.

You sounded a bit upset at me so I tried to clarify what I was saying, for you.

Now I am making a big deal out of nothing?  I doubt anything I can say will ever satisfy you so you are right, I am wrong.  You win.  Problem solved ^_^ .
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Ave

Quote from: Carlita on December 22, 2012, 02:09:11 AM
Absolutely, and I have done ... and still do. But they are conducted on the basis that the woman sees me as a man - hopefully a nice man, who is maybe more empathetic and more interested in the female condition than the average male, but a man nonetheless.

My whole question was based on my concern that it would not be possible for women to relate to me as easily, or comfortably after transition ... whether they could alter our relationship from the friendship that a man and woman can have to the friendship that exists between two women. And those relationships are NOT the same thing.

Of course they're not, but why do you need to become a woman and have that relationship? Even if there are exclusive women's spaces and relationships that's their thing...
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Ave on December 22, 2012, 08:02:38 AM
Of course they're not, but why do you need to become a woman and have that relationship? Even if there are exclusive women's spaces and relationships that's their thing...

Two reasons for me. First, it seems like something the female part of me needs in a powerful way. Second, it's an important part of the experience of being a woman and I don't want to miss out on it.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Kelly J. P.

 Sometimes, it's important to simplify your perspective and see people as people, and relationships as relationships. No more.

All anyone can or should do is to just be themselves. If you live honestly, then what happens as a result should be experienced when it happens. This is because, as long as you are true to yourself, there's no point in being anxious about how people will treat you in the future.

These sorts of worries are signs that you may care a little too much about what others think of you. Acceptance should primarily come from within. Acceptance from without is secondary, and while it feels good, it is a reflection of who you are relating to far more-so than it is of yourself.
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Alainaluvsu

Quote from: TessaM on December 22, 2012, 08:43:37 AM
This topic is starting to get a little bit... heated.

Can you be accepted as one of the girls?

YES OMG!!!

Like Kelly J.P. Has just posted, acceptance comes from within. Accept yourself first and then others will follow your "lead."

Are some people biggoted jerks? Sure they exist somewhere, but I doubt they will say anything to your face. Also, they are such a minority not only would I not worry about such people but if they gave their opinion out in public im sure they would be faced with open oposition and they would end up looking stupid.

So true. All of it :)
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



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Stephe

Quote from: O_O on December 22, 2012, 04:35:43 AM
I found that transition was profound in that it changed how I experienced life, the world and social interactions, it also changed how I experience myself.  Some people say they are the same person after transition.

I've NEVER heard anyone say their life or how they see themselves was the same post transition. That just isn't possible and finding that " transition was profound in that it changed how I experienced life, the world and social interactions, it also changed how I experience myself" doesn't require being stealth or fabricating a false past live to cover the real one up. Anyone who lives full time as the opposite of their birth gender will find this same thing you posted to be true. It's the whole purpose of transition to experience life from that other point of view.
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Stephe

Quote from: Carlita on December 22, 2012, 02:09:11 AM
My whole question was based on my concern that it would not be possible for women to relate to me as easily, or comfortably after transition ... whether they could alter our relationship from the friendship that a man and woman can have to the friendship that exists between two women. And those relationships are NOT the same thing.

I can answer this using the relationship between myself and my ex-wife. We divorced 20 years ago for unrelated to my gender issues. Today post transition we are BFF girl friends. I do understand the difference between the friendship between a man-woman and two women and if my ex wife can get past my transition to see and relate to me as a woman, I think anyone can.
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Misato

Just wanted to add I've met some awesome conservative people since I came out.  They're even responsible for some of the best moments I've had since!  This does include moments where they treated me like one of the girls and I ain't even full time yet.

One of the things I'm most thankful for about transition is it's blown away a lot of my misconceptions and prejudices about others.  Indeed transition, I think, is helping me become the better person I sought to become.
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Bex80

Quote from: Stephe on December 22, 2012, 11:01:11 AM
I've NEVER heard anyone say their life or how they see themselves was the same post transition. That just isn't possible and finding that " transition was profound in that it changed how I experienced life, the world and social interactions, it also changed how I experience myself" doesn't require being stealth or fabricating a false past live to cover the real one up. Anyone who lives full time as the opposite of their birth gender will find this same thing you posted to be true. It's the whole purpose of transition to experience life from that other point of view.


Got to agree and say I don't want to be the same person post transition as I have conciously and sub consciously 'invented' aspects to fit into the gender role.
My personality will be the same but I want to be my complete self as a woman and not a shell of a man.
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Tristan

the kind of people I have been around in the hospital where I work and town yes they do treat me as one of the girls. now some who are jealous will try not to treat you like one of the girls. but since that's what jealous woman do anyways in reality they are still treating you like just one of the girls.haha
but yeah the basic answer is yes you can....esp if you pass ok men cant help but treat someone like a lady who looks like a lady to them.
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Hopefull

I wouldn't know any of this. My anxiety has made it almost impossible for me to talk to anyone ( even over the phone).
:D
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