Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

[Carlita]

I can answer this using the relationship between myself and my ex-wife. We divorced 20 years ago for unrelated to my gender issues. Today post transition we are BFF girl friends. I do understand the difference between the friendship between a man-woman and two women and if my ex wife can get past my transition to see and relate to me as a woman, I think anyone can.

That's wonderful to hear! 

[Alainaluvsu]

esp if you pass ok men cant help but treat someone like a lady who looks like a lady to them.

Isn't that the truth. They still do stuff for your attention even when they know. They may not ask you out or really flirt with you if they know (even though sometimes they do too), but they'll still act dumber than normal around you.

[O_O]

This sort of thing depends upon the level of interaction, especially when sex becomes an issue.  For example, if you are considered competition or not.  Whether as a lesbian or a straight woman.  Because outing a trans woman is pretty much always a derp win in cases of competition.

Casual acceptance happens all the time, either because people love you or they consider you their friend or they don't want to create conflict or more typically because they have their own lives to live and they just really don't care.  Actually that last one is quite a blessing.

But once competition becomes involved things can get ugly fast.  And I have found that people talk, people spread rumors.  It is like lighting a fire and expecting that fire to know when to go out.  But the fire won't go out until everything is consumed.  Still *yay* for casual acceptance and our polite Society. ^_^

If you are dating a straight guy and you reveal to him that you transitioned and then he gets turned off and never wants to see you again, then perhaps you will begin to understand the difference between 'acceptance' and 'experience'.  Having people use the right pronouns and be nice to you is what I refer to as casual acceptance.  Working some place where no one gives you a difficult time because you transitioned and where they use your name and the right pronouns is casual acceptance.

Casual acceptance is nice but I need more than casual acceptance. ^_^

[Alainaluvsu]

If you are dating a straight guy and you reveal to him that you transitioned and then he gets turned off and never wants to see you again, then perhaps you will begin to understand the difference between 'acceptance' and 'experience'.  Having people use the right pronouns and be nice to you is what I refer to as casual acceptance.  Working some place where no one gives you a difficult time because you transitioned and where they use your name and the right pronouns is casual acceptance.

Casual acceptance is nice but I need more than casual acceptance. ^_^

If you are dating a guy, you should be honest with him completely. Not just about transition but about everything. TBH if you aren't honest about yourself you do not deserve a good guy. Besides, all it takes is one thing to stick out at him... literally or figuratively... and your chances of being assaulted or murdered increase by a billion. But whatever, live how you want. If you want to be underhanded with men, go ahead. When they find you out they'll be looking at every, girl, cis or not, as a trans girl anyways. Many men are simply turned off because you can't have kids. It's the same as lying about that and then they marry you and find out they'll never have a child. That's messed up.

And your description of casual acceptance is bull ****. Just because people know doesn't mean they're humoring you. Your trust in people is pretty low if you think that, and like I said before, I have quite a few friends and family that would take offense to you putting them in that category.

But go stealth. Lie about your past. Keep anybody important away from any of your past, including your best friends, family, experiences... everything. It'll bite you in the end. The holes in your stories, how odd it is you have no family, or maybe your family finding out where you are and contacting you with your boyfriend is around... it'll surface, and you'll look like the worlds biggest liar. And for what? So people can "Experience" you as a female? How the hell do you know your voice didn't crack one day, your jawline hit them in the wrong way, your nose or adams apple stuck out too far, your mannerisms hinted something, whatever... and they clocked you, and instead you're being "casually accepted" and "talked about"? Don't think you can't get clocked. You can. And men are usually much better at it than women. So good luck!

And when you wind up on the news as "John Tricked by a ->-bleeped-<-!" - thanks for making us all look like deceptive whores.

[Ave]

If you are dating a guy, you should be honest with him completely. Not just about transition but about everything. TBH if you aren't honest about yourself you do not deserve a good guy. Besides, all it takes is one thing to stick out at him... literally or figuratively... and your chances of being assaulted or murdered increase by a billion. But whatever, live how you want. If you want to be underhanded with men, go ahead. When they find you out they'll be looking at every, girl, cis or not, as a trans girl anyways. Many men are simply turned off because you can't have kids. It's the same as lying about that and then they marry you and find out they'll never have a child. That's messed up.

And your description of casual acceptance is bull ****. Just because people know doesn't mean they're humoring you. Your trust in people is pretty low if you think that, and like I said before, I have quite a few friends and family that would take offense to you putting them in that category.

But go stealth. Lie about your past. Keep anybody important away from any of your past, including your best friends, family, experiences... everything. It'll bite you in the end. The holes in your stories, how odd it is you have no family, or maybe your family finding out where you are and contacting you with your boyfriend is around... it'll surface, and you'll look like the worlds biggest liar. And for what? So people can "Experience" you as a female? How the hell do you know your voice didn't crack one day, your jawline hit them in the wrong way, your nose or adams apple stuck out too far, your mannerisms hinted something, whatever... and they clocked you, and instead you're being "casually accepted" and "talked about"? Don't think you can't get clocked. You can. And men are usually much better at it than women. So good luck!

And when you wind up on the news as "John Tricked by a ->-bleeped-<-!" - thanks for making us all look like deceptive whores.

Strong overreaction itt

[tekla]

That's not to say there is not a lot of 'humoring' going around.  It's so much easier than trying to work at it.  And people can (and are) very good at hiding things when they need to.  I've always said there are just as many racists and/or homophobic types in the entertainment industry as in any other industry, it's just that they know if they let that be known they will be out of a job.  So they smile, nod their head and don't really change their views.

[O_O]

If you are dating a guy, you should be honest with him completely. Not just about transition but about everything. TBH if you aren't honest about yourself you do not deserve a good guy.

Your statements are startlingly judgmental.

Your 'Truth' is 'Your Truth', your "truth" is not everyone's truth.

My truth is different than your truth.

What you choose to focus on is your choice.
What you place importance upon is your choice.
How you live your life is your choice.

What other people choose to place focus on is their choice.
What other people deem important or trivial is their choice.
How others choose to live  their lives is their choice.

You are not God Alainaluvsu.

And no one deserves to suffer because they don't live up to your rules.

Save the morality for a thread on religion.

I will not bow down to you or obey your laws.

^_^

(Your "truth" is not Universal).
Have fun with your truth, enjoy.

[mintra]

If you are dating a straight guy and you reveal to him that you transitioned and then he gets turned off and never wants to see you again, then perhaps you will begin to understand the difference between 'acceptance' and 'experience'.

Actually I would feel relieved that I got rid of the wrong man before investing in my emotion too deep. If he cannot accept me for who I am then let's go separate ways. It's him that miss out on a lot of good things not me. Until the right one came along, I actually don't care if I have to stay single forever. Rather be alone than unhappy. I do have trans friends in Chicago who are in a loving relationship with men and their guys know full well. These men were quite proud of my girlfriends too because they are freaking gorgeous!

[O_O]

Just wanted to elaborate a little before I shower and get ready for work...

What ever you believe to be important about yourself will become important.

If you believe that "trans" is an important "truth" or aspect of yourself then so it is.

You will introduce yourself to others and allow them to get to know what you believe is important about yourself.

If something is trivial to you then it is unlikely that you will share it with anyone.

Some of us are trans, some of us are transitioning.  Transition for some is an identity, it is their core self, it is the most important, most fundamental aspect of their being.  Typically because they are in the midst of transition.  They will heartily give the trans battle cry and demand that the world recognize and accept them as such.  They have a lot of energy often times, so much energy and being trans gives them purpose and direction.

Many of us transition because we are women.  I transitioned M2F because I had the seed of being female planted deep inside of me.  I transitioned to be female.  For a while (during transition) being trans seemed pretty important, it gave my life a sense of direction and I had a lot of energy.

But I transitioned with a purpose and that purpose was to be the female being that I always have been though that experience was previously denied me.  For a time being "trans" was enough.  It was relevant.  It had purpose.  Now I am female.  Being female is my core identity.  I am done with transition.

I know that a strong sense of purpose, a lot of energy and a strong direction seems to give a person all the right answers but typically those answers are only right for you.  There is a phenomenon that occurs with new religious converts and born again Christians whereby they often have this overwhelming sense of needing to right all the wrongs and save the world, an urgency, a fire in their belly!  The same happens with women who are transitioning.

Feel free to focus on what you think is important to you.

Feel free to believe what is important about you.

Live your life Alainaluvsu.

But allow others the same opportunity.

Thank you
^_^

[Stephe]

How others choose to live  their lives is their choice.

You are not God Alainaluvsu.

And no one deserves to suffer because they don't live up to your rules.

Yet you come here and "explain" how unless we follow your stealth path, we are only being "casually accepted" and no one really thinks of us as being women.

And honestly she is spot on. You seriously think you can have a long term meaningful relationship with someone you live a lie with? And yes you will have to lie about your past to cover this up. Like the first 20ish (or more) years of your life are trivial and meaningless? A solid relationship is based on being with someone you can tell anything to. Someone you can trust your deepest inner feelings with. Clearly that wouldn't be the case if you can't tell them about something that was, in your own words, a life altering experience. And trust me, when they do discover this, it won't be your past that upsets them, it will be that you felt you couldn't trust them with the truth.

[Misato]

From someone who has had problems with tone her own self, I think Alainaluvsu is right about the need to be open.  Stephe hits the nail on the head with:

And trust me, when they do discover this, it won't be your past that upsets them, it will be that you felt you couldn't trust them with the truth.

I'm thankful for their comments too.  Sometimes I feel like a minority in a minority because of the stealth crowd.

If/when I have a choice to out myself (that day is not today, today outing just happens and I'm cool with that) I intend to admit my almost 35 years of male life to those that matter to me.  I have ripped apart the trust of...

Crap. 

My mother isn't going to know about her daughter until after the holiday, putting me weeks away from full time.  The idea of her having a daughter going to hit her hard, my not being open with her as I've been in therapy for the last two years is really going to upset her too.  I was originally going to talk about the trust of my SO cause I still have some bridge rebuilding to do there that came from me hiding trans stuff from her but, this thread made me realize what I'm about to do with ma.

Anyway I've been accused of not caring about what other people think of me.  That's not accurate.  It just doesn't matter tons to me but I do care at least somewhat.  Yeah, I want to be included in the activities of the women I work with.  Yeah, I want female pronouns used on me.  But I started transition to make me a better person, to make me feel well.  Because I am a woman.  I am also a trans woman.  I am also a white woman.  I am also an American woman.  These other prefixes do not make me less of a woman, including the trans prefix, they just refine my experience of my womanhood.  At least that's how I look at it.  To be sure haters are going to try to rip out trans women and try to make me something less in their mind but that's their problem not mine.  I know who I am and where I fit in.

[Celery Stalk]

When I was about 18 my girlfriend at the time said, 'You're the only boy I'd ever invite to a hen-party.' The moment she said it, a look of horror crossed her face at the fear that she might have insulted my masculinity and she started telling me, 'I mean that in a good way. I wasn't trying to be rude ...' and so on.

Of course, I was thrilled. I've always loved female company. I'm totally happy having a girly conversation and although I've learned over the years how to behave in a way that seems appropriately masculine, I've never, ever been one of the guys.

So for me, transition is as much as anything about becoming one of the girls, being able to socialise with women in an entirely non-sexual way, as friends, sharing experiences and emotions.

But I wonder: is this possible? Can cis-females ever truly accept a MTF transsexual as one of their own? Or are we, not being "real women" doomed to be outsiders?

Tell me, ladies ... what are your experiences of friendship, companionship and acceptance with other women? Are you one of the girls? Or have you felt the cold shoulder once they know you weren't born in a girl's body?

Totally depends on the group. I have one friend that can't get over the trans thing. She's not insulting in anyway, but she is intensely curious so I get lots of questions. But I have another group of girlfriends who I believe forget I'm trans entirely.

Mileage may vary.

[Elsa]

No matter the prefix, we are all women! Trans, white, american any dam label you put in from of the label does not make you any less of a woman, just a "different flavour" if you know what I mean.

Wow!!! my BFF said something similar to me a few weeks ago!!!

She was like "So what if you're trans? you're still a woman!" She was trying to convince me that I should not allow people to treat me like ****.

PS: she succeeded

[ashleylynn]

All of my friends consider me just "one of the girls" even my male friends do. It's just how you present yourself and who you are. 

[Annah]

If you are dating a straight guy and you reveal to him that you transitioned and then he gets turned off and never wants to see you again, then perhaps you will begin to understand the difference between 'acceptance' and 'experience'.  Having people use the right pronouns and be nice to you is what I refer to as casual acceptance.  Working some place where no one gives you a difficult time because you transitioned and where they use your name and the right pronouns is casual acceptance.

your "explanations" may be genuine to your experience but it isn't even close to mine.

I have told all the guys who asked me out that I am transgender. I am stealth EVERYWHERE but when it comes to matters of relationships I believe it is fair to that person to know.

The fact that I have dated some very wonderful non ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- men in the last four years (pre and post srs) invalidates your explanation as being true for everyone.

And it seems you are way too caught up on competition. I just don't even go there. I have no need to "compete" for any man.

The posts of people who think they have all the right answers when it comes to trans not telling their lovers they are trans is very troubling.

Sometimes I even wonder if some of these people even had a relationship during their transitional lifetime ...or they have just been reading so many horror stories on the internet.

This transsexual girl is in a relationship with a very wonderful man who knows my birth gender. I have no need to compete and we both love each other very much. Hell, my own mother loves him like a son...which is a very good sign for me.

[Carlita]

Just going back to my original post ... I've always been someone that women would talk to - complete with all the intimate, girly details!  - so I just hope that remains the case.

In the meantime, I certainly feel, in the very best way, like one of the girls here. And so, ladies, let me wish you all ....

A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!! 

[Alainaluvsu]

Good luck getting a guy that deserves to trust you if you're going to do so much to cover up your history. And good luck keeping those secrets in. Women hate keeping secrets and we love to talk about many details of our lives. Honestly I wonder what kind of guy is going to be okay with a girl that has almost no history. Furthermore IDK how anybody can wake up next to a guy she claims to love and keep something like that from him.

I feel sorry for that guy. Even if he his transphobic...

BTW, for the record - to me this doesn't apply to one night stands. Yeah it's still not something I'd advocate doing, but guys doing one night stands I don't really have much sympathy for.

Hey all I know is I would be pretty upset if a FtM hid their past from me. I'd feel 1) I couldn't trust him anymore, 2) that he felt he couldn't trust me.

[Ave]

Good luck getting a guy that deserves to trust you if you're going to do so much to cover up your history. And good luck keeping those secrets in. Women hate keeping secrets and we love to talk about many details of our lives. Honestly I wonder what kind of guy is going to be okay with a girl that has almost no history. Furthermore IDK how anybody can wake up next to a guy she claims to love and keep something like that from him.

I feel sorry for that guy. Even if he his transphobic...

BTW, for the record - to me this doesn't apply to one night stands. Yeah it's still not something I'd advocate doing, but guys doing one night stands I don't really have much sympathy for.

Hey all I know is I would be pretty upset if a FtM hid their past from me. I'd feel 1) I couldn't trust him anymore, 2) that he felt he couldn't trust me.

Yes, but as we know, that's not ever quite going to be as possible with existing technologies (ftm doing stealth relationships vs mtf), whereas with an mtf, if the cards fall just right, then it'll be a possibility.

[Stephe]

Yes, but as we know, that's not ever quite going to be as possible with existing technologies (ftm doing stealth relationships vs mtf), whereas with an mtf, if the cards fall just right, then it'll be a possibility.

That is totally missing the point. A solid relationship is built on trust. If you are afraid this person will hate you if they know the truth about your past, how can there ever be real intimacy? You will always have in the back of your mind "OMG if he ever finds out....." Sorry but I'd rather date 10,000 guys looking for the right one, than lie to someone about my past in order for them to love me.

[Kevin Peña]

Ave was just raising a valid discrepancy between MTFs and FTMs. An FTM would likely not be able to get away with something like hiding his past from his spouse, unless she maybe never saw an actual penis before. 

And, yes, I say "she" because a guy would be able to tell immediately that something is up.