Can we ever be "one of the girls"?

[Ave]

Ave was just raising a valid discrepancy between MTFs and FTMs. An FTM would likely not be able to get away with something like hiding his past from his spouse, unless she maybe never saw an actual penis before. 

And, yes, I say "she" because a guy would be able to tell immediately that something is up.

Exactly this.

[Kevin Peña]

Exactly this.

You're welcome. 

Anywho, I think anyone can be one of the girls, trans or otherwise. People get so enthralled in what they're doing that they something forget for a second that you're trans.

[Just Shelly]

This is a very interesting topic...being "one of the girls" is something I always wanted and more so something I thought I needed. I can understand why so many MTF"s write a book..

So much of what ends up happening is so far from what I thought or even wanted. My life is a 50/50 mix of stealth and known transgendered but not out and proud. At work I am 100% stealth (I think!!) at home and places where I was known as him I'm transgendered. For the most part I feel I am treated like any other women out their...at times if I know someone knows my past I have a tendency to judge their actions towards me as that of being transgendered.

For my thought on this I base it mostly on being stealth.

I know I am accepted as one of the girls at work...I get this mostly from men, its not just the attention but how I have been referred as and treated...before and through my transition I have always thought of men as something different then me and wasn't keen on being freinds with them...but because I was who I was and not the least bit effeminate most of my freinds pre-transition were men...I look back at the conversations and even my thought processes and wonder.... who was I!!

The thing is I didn't change me!!! Men changed me!! When I first transitioned I was attracted to women for intimacy and for friendship...I looked at guys with disgust and wanted nothing to do with them anymore.... for friendship and definatly not for intimacy...since my transition and going full time almost two years ago my attitude has done a complete 360!! I enjoy my friendship with men more then my friendship with women and I have become attracted sexually as well to men (still need help on this one!!)...this is not something I tried or even wanted...it just happened!! I have been treated as "one of the girls" but from all places it came from "men"

At work it is a 50/50 mixture of men and women...for the most part I get along with all...if I were to pick certain people I felt didn't care for me...they would all be women. I don't know why this is...at first I always thought they suspected something...through the many conversations I know this not to be the case. I have found that other women can be well....bitches!! It seems the worse ones are girls much younger then me...not sure why this is. I do think at times I come across as a stuck up bitch...my children have noticed this in me at times...I don't know what I am doing to cause this!! this is so far from the truth...it seems nothing has changed....when I was a man people thought I was cocky and a know it all...again...far from the truth.

So much has changed with how I view others and how I am viewed...not because I have tried to change but because of how I'm treated...if your treated like a woman and this feels normal then thats how you will act. When I first started transitioning I did try to do things a way a "woman" would...I told myself I need to talk, walk, feel and think like a woman...I must not have NO man thoughts  LOL...after a short time I told myself I cannot "act" out being a woman the rest of my life. I can in all honesty say the only thing I have purposely changed was my voice...this doesn't mean I am always happy about my appearance or the way I may come across...but I can say I rarely get a feeling that I am viewed as anything other then a woman...It may be a woman that is viewed as old, bitchy, funny, motherly, caring, witty, thoughtful or just damn right ugly but none the less...it's a woman. It's not easy being me!!! lol

You can define yourself any way you want but in the end its the others that define you...

[O_O]

Ave was just raising a valid discrepancy between MTFs and FTMs. An FTM would likely not be able to get away with something like hiding his past from his spouse, unless she maybe never saw an actual penis before. 

And, yes, I say "she" because a guy would be able to tell immediately that something is up.

Penises come in all shapes and sizes.  I know I have seen a lot of them up close and personal.

I can't imagine someone telling a man, "Hah! Fake penis, you're really a woman!"  I think that is just ridiculous.  A man isn't someone with a "correct" looking penis.  There are men who have penises that are innies, who were born male.  Trans women are so worried about their neo-vaginae outing them when if a guy says anything about your vagina not being authentic it is because he heard a rumor, saw your picture on SusansForums or because you aren't passing.

There is a trend on this board of telling people what they can't do and what they shouldn't do.  That is why I didn't tell anyone I was transitioning until after I had SRS, I didn't need a lot of people telling me what I couldn't and shouldn't do.

I would like to encourage people, give them hope and tell them what they can do.  Really you can do just about anything if you want it badly enough.

[O_O]

your "explanations" may be genuine to your experience but it isn't even close to mine.

I have told all the guys who asked me out that I am transgender. I am stealth EVERYWHERE but when it comes to matters of relationships I believe it is fair to that person to know.

The fact that I have dated some very wonderful non ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- men in the last four years (pre and post srs) invalidates your explanation as being true for everyone.

And it seems you are way too caught up on competition. I just don't even go there. I have no need to "compete" for any man.

The posts of people who think they have all the right answers when it comes to trans not telling their lovers they are trans is very troubling.

Sometimes I even wonder if some of these people even had a relationship during their transitional lifetime ...or they have just been reading so many horror stories on the internet.

This transsexual girl is in a relationship with a very wonderful man who knows my birth gender. I have no need to compete and we both love each other very much. Hell, my own mother loves him like a son...which is a very good sign for me.

Feel free to have your own experience, and as you have your own experience no doubt you will begin to realize that relationships and acceptance tend not to be all-black or all-white either.  Also consider that in a viable relationship if you are accepted you will tend to be accepted as what you believe yourself to be.

People tend to be what they believe about themselves.  You have decided that being trans is important so for you being trans is important, therefore in your experience it is fair that a guy knows your anatomical history.  I would say that you represent the majority of people who date men after transition.  Almost everyone tells because for almost everyone transition is the singular experience that tends to define a person in his or her lifetime, it is a landmark achievement that overshadows all prior and later achievements. Therefore when people transition they tend to identify as trans and being trans tends to be very important to them.  People who identify as trans believe in themselves as trans and in 'being' trans they find their "honesty".

You have the full support of most trans people and the rest of humanity, because the rest of humanity also believes it is very important that you are trans and that for you to pose as female is to one degree or another a form of deception (occasionally viewed as harmless) unless perhaps you deceive the opposite sex into attraction hence the importance of a quick confession.  The Roman army couldn't give you any more support than you already have so what am I by comparison?  Simply disagree with me and you win, rally your troops and they will shout in unison.  Swat me, I am but a gnat, I die easily, think of me as hope.

I talk about not telling and about believing in myself as female because I want people to be aware that there can be an alternative.  You have chosen the easy path and the wide gate, I have chosen the narrow path that seems difficult, crazy even.  People will be critical of me for good reason, my ideas are unpopular therefore the easy assumption is that I am wrong and your way is right.

So you see Annah, in any competition you are assured of the easy win, you serve the popular opinion and you and the many others who are like you will continue to exert a strong influence over those who choose to transition.  Hive think is powerful stuff.

But to me Annah this has never been a completion, rather I transitioned to have the life I need.  I have had a lot of people tell me what I cannot do and I have had a lot of people tell me that what I have done is wrong.  There is a lot of persecution in the trans community.  Supporting the "community" has become more important than transition it self or any individual.  And the trans community is so quick to crucify their own.  But mostly the goal seems to be a sort of Orwellian Society where we only exist to serve the hive mentality,"We are hormonally and surgically altered men before we are women and we must confess this eternal truth to anyone who matters to us or we are causing harm and failing to own our reality." Feel to pick your own truth apart from hive think.  That is why I like Susan's, this is one of the rare places that allows it's members to have an opinion, even when that opinion isn't popular.  Can't say that much for the alternatives.

I transitioned because I have always been female, it is a seed that was planted in me.  Because I have always been female being female is the only truth I owe anyone.  Chop wood, carry water, that is what I do instead of chopping wood as trans, carrying water as trans.  Feel free to leave your burden at the cross.  And btw, not religion, metaphor.

[Emily Aster]

I enjoy my friendship with men more then my friendship with women and I have become attracted sexually as well to men (still need help on this one!!)...this is not something I tried or even wanted...it just happened!! I have been treated as "one of the girls" but from all places it came from "men"

I may be off base here becaue I've recently found that I am actually attracted to men and haven't realized it because I was never open to it lol, but could it be that you're experiencing this because they are treating you just like one of the girls, like yourself. I'm pretty sure that my past relationship issues were because my partner was with a lie instead of me. I'd bet that if I was with someone that knew me as me, whether male or female, I'd be a lot more into it.

[Riley Skye]

I bleive it depends on the girls, if theyre more open then yes. In the months since I've came out as trans my girl friends have already started to, not completely quite yet, excepting me as one of the girls. I t takes an openness to realize that gender is beyond the physical body and it has to do with the mind and soul, what ever that is lol. Once we realize someone born a man but on the inside is a woman then people can accept you as such and same thing goes for the guys too!

My hope too is to be accepted as part of the lesbian community now that I'm just starting to get into the lgbt+ community, really I'm just taking baby steps lol. It's weird since I always knew that despite being raised a boy I always felt like a lesbian and now I know why!

[Emily Aster]

People tend to be what they believe about themselves.  You have decided that being trans is important so for you being trans is important, therefore in your experience it is fair that a guy knows your anatomical history.  I would say that you represent the majority of people who date men after transition.  Almost everyone tells because for almost everyone transition is the singular experience that tends to define a person in his or her lifetime, it is a landmark achievement that overshadows all prior and later achievements. Therefore when people transition they tend to identify as trans and being trans tends to be very important to them.  People who identify as trans believe in themselves as trans and in 'being' trans they find their "honesty".

While I do sometimes disagree with the group, and I have been known to voice my opinion, I really do agree with them here and here's why. How can you truely love someone if you're holding back such a big part of yourself? We all want to be girls, to be known that way, and to be able to look at our past and say yes, I was born a girl in a girl's body, but it's just not practical. Most of us have experiences that many girls never go through and it will show in our personalities. Lies are hard to maintain, even if you tell the same one to everybody. There's also the internal body stuff that you can never hide. I guess you could try, but your doctor will know the second you get an x-ray. At some point, we all have to realize that we are going to get old and probably find that we need lots of medical attention. Is it reasonable to assume that your spouse wouldn't be told that you're not a girl underneath the skin? What about if you're rendered unable to make your own medical decisions and it's left up to them? I'm not sure and I'd much rather that they find out from me in the beginning than find out 40 or 50 years later when I'm dying in the hospital (if I'm lucky enough to live that long). When I was younger, I would have agreed with the stealth option more, but wisdom has caught up to me and now I think the honesty method is the better choice, at least for long term relationships.

[O_O]

How can you truely love someone if you're holding back such a big part of yourself?

You begin your question with a false premise.

You assume that being trans is a big part of everyone's life.  That is referred to as Psychological Projection.  Essentially it is a matter of trying to base understanding of another person based upon your own experience.

Typically being trans is "a big deal" to people who are transitioning.

Compare it to any other thing and it becomes obvious.  For someone who is in high school, high school is a big deal.  Then again there are the Marines, they say a Marine is a Marine for life but we can't all be "marines".  I didn't transition to be a Marine or a "trans person", I transitioned because I have always been female.

And BTW I never wanted to be "one of the girls", I just wanted my life to stop being wrong.  I did this to be normal, not to be a "modified" human being, not to be a man woman.  A lesbian summed it up pretty good when she began introducing me to all her friends, "This is my friend mangina because he's a man and he has a vagina."  Guys summed it up pretty well when they told me I would always be a man and they couldn't have sex with me because they weren't gay.  What did they sum up so well?  It was never any of their business to begin with.  No one deserves the opportunity to judge whether I am a real human or a modified man woman.  No one deserves to judge me that way. 

I don't care how nice and well-intentioned they are, either you know me as what I am or you heard a rumor from someone.  I am not a story.  I am not a science experiment.  I am a human being and I deserve the right to be a human being without it being put on the barter table to be dissected.  Either you recognize that I am female and you are attracted to me because that is what I am or you are someone who likes to dissect human beings.  Unfortunately almost everyone who is ever given the chance to dissect a human being loves the opportunity, absolutely thrills over it, it's ten times better than the juiciest celebrity gossip and we humans just love to step around in the entrails of what we reduced someone to being after we tore them down and tore them apart, especially when we can relate to them.

Fortunately there are plenty of people who enjoy being dissected and many who consider it an honor since it is their truth and their most defining accomplishment.

[Emily Aster]

Friends though, I'm not sure about, since it's fairly normal (I think) to keep some bad events in life away from them... Because it's very personal, and may not be something you want to share with others, and there isn't the same level of trust.
Yet again :p, I'm just theorizing...

I can partially agree with that. I say partially because if the one you're planning on spending the rest of your life with knows about it, there's a good chance they're going to be spending time with your friends too. Now you have to worry about them accidently outing you as well.

[O_O]

I can partially agree with that. I say partially because if the one you're planning on spending the rest of your life with knows about it, there's a good chance they're going to be spending time with your friends too. Now you have to worry about them accidently outing you as well.

I would say that if you are going to live around and maintain friendships with people who know you from before transition or who know that you transitioned but you aren't sharing that same information with the person you are supposed to love then that is monumentally disrespectful.  But if you aren't out to anyone, nobody needs to know.

You might date someone for four years and then break up with them for non-trans related issues.  Then the person you dated can tell all his friends about you and probably share identifying photos.  Letting a person get to know the real you might mean having to avoid telling them you are trans.  Then again depending on who you are and where your head is at telling someone you are trans might be necessary for you so that they can know the real you.

Many trans people assume that telling someone your biological past is very important, the media likes to make a big deal out of anything unusual so since transition is unusual the assumption is it is very important.  In Thailand anything unusual is lucky, trans people are good luck because they are unusual (or they used to be) turns out that if something is lucky then more people are likely to create luck for themselves.  Children are sometimes encouraged to be trans in Thailand so the family can have good luck.

Transition often times allows the one who transitioned to gain new perspectives.  Like transitioning from a cat to a fish, the experience of being a fish is different from the experience of being a cat.  Many who are considering transition assume that the experience of being a fish will be that of a cat that looks like a fish.  I think it is fair to say that experience happens a lot, especially early in transition.  The cat feels like a cat in a fish disguise.  Add fish hormones, fish surgery and some life-changing experiences that only a fish could have and the cat might begin to believe she is a fish.  That is what happened to me.  I began to realize I actually was a female, except for when I told people I was trans, then I stopped having a really amazing experience and began having a different experience called "acceptance".  Which is like when a fish that used to be a cat tells all the other fish that she used to be a cat.  It is hard for fish to wrap their minds around that so from that point on they make an attempt to consciously accept the cat as a fish instead of very simply experiencing another fish.  I feel like there is a lot more honesty in simply allowing people to experience me as female.  They don't have to make any effort to "accept" me and I don't have to experience every interaction as a cat that looks like a fish except everyone already knows about the cat thing, thing...

O_o

[Emily Aster]

Transition often times allows the one who transitioned to gain new perspectives.  Like transitioning from a cat to a fish, the experience of being a fish is different from the experience of being a cat.  Many who are considering transition assume that the experience of being a fish will be that of a cat that looks like a fish.  I think it is fair to say that experience happens a lot, especially early in transition.  The cat feels like a cat in a fish disguise.  Add fish hormones, fish surgery and some life-changing experiences that only a fish could have and the cat might begin to believe she is a fish.  That is what happened to me.  I began to realize I actually was a female, except for when I told people I was trans, then I stopped having a really amazing experience and began having a different experience called "acceptance".  Which is like when a fish that used to be a cat tells all the other fish that she used to be a cat.  It is hard for fish to wrap their minds around that so from that point on they make an attempt to consciously accept the cat as a fish instead of very simply experiencing another fish.  I feel like there is a lot more honesty in simply allowing people to experience me as female.  They don't have to make any effort to "accept" me and I don't have to experience every interaction as a cat that looks like a fish except everyone already knows about the cat thing, thing...

I can certainly understand that, letting peole make up their own minds based on how you present in the here and now without the past to cloud their judgement. But I do have to continue to disagree merely because the possibility of being outed is so great. I don't particularly want to have to tell people I'm trans, because like you said I'm a woman, but I'd more afraid of being outed at the wrong time by something I didn't even think of than I am of just doing it myself. Your situation may differ. I have an excessive amount of family and that's a lot of opportunity for people to talk. If you don't have a lot of people that knew you in your past life, the risk might not outweigh the benefits.

[Stephe]

Friends though, I'm not sure about, since it's fairly normal (I think) to keep some bad events in life away from them... Because it's very personal, and may not be something you want to share with others, and there isn't the same level of trust.

For me it depends on the level of friendship/trust. And of course for people "going stealth" would require dumping any friends you had per-transition. For me, I would lose 3-4 really good friends, people I have known for over 20 years that would do anything for me. I suppose if you don't care about developing these types of extra close friends, you could lie to everyone.

It all boils down to is: are you comfortable lying to people or not. It would eat me up inside knowing I was trying to hide something this big from someone I love. Maybe for some people it wouldn't bother them. And when something weird happens they can make up more lies quickly and be convincing.  But that's just not how I live my life.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy that for anyone being born the wrong sex and growing up as the wrong sex has no bearing on who they are. That just isn't possible.

All these arguments being made for stealth are the same ones gay people use. They assume EVERYONE will hate them etc so stay in their little closet of lies. I would not want to live in a closet like that! I spent too many years lying to myself and others about my gender issues, I'm not going to just move into a different closet.

It is refreshing as times change less people see to be arguing this "You have to be stealth" viewpoint. 10 years ago on a forum like this 90% of the people would agree with O_O. I'm glad that times are changing and people are starting to realize they don't have to live a lie to be accepted as a woman.

[Emily Aster]

Do you have to tell every bad thing you've gone trough to everyone, or even current issues, to not be in a "closet"? Or every medical/psychological issue you have or had?

No, you don't, but they ARE part of who you are. We all hide things about our past, but in my own experience, I'll often bring past experience into a conversation that I suddenly realize was from something I really didn't want to talk about. Next thing I know I'm spilling my guts and feeling horrible about keeping it from them because every time so far, I've been scared to death to talk about it and they just kind of shrugged it off like no big deal. In many cases, they've told me they've gone through the same thing. Obviously telling me they're trans too would be a rare occurance, but you get the drift.

[Kevin Peña]

Ugh, once someone brings up the "stealth or not" debate, there's always a cat-fight in the future. 

[Stephe]

Do you have to tell every bad thing you've gone trough to everyone, or even current issues, to not be in a "closet"? Or every medical/psychological issue you have or had?

Again no one is saying casual friends. I'm stealth when out in public, around friends of close friends etc.  But to someone you love and you believes loves you, why should you have to lie to them. Who exactly do they love if you have to hide your past from them for them to love you?

Like what sorta lie are you gonna tell them about why you can't have children? Or that you never had a period in your life etc etc. Obviously childhood experiences are talked about with people you are close to, so make up a fake childhood too?

If you are forced to hide something about yourself from -everyone-, that is a closet of your own making.

[Stephe]

And this wasn't even the point of this thread argh!!

Well the question translates to:If I'm not 100% stealth, will people accept me as "one of the girls"? Of course this thread was going to end up with a "Yes you MUST be stealth like I am to be accepted as a woman" post or two..

[O_O]

Well the question translates to:If I'm not 100% stealth, will people accept me as "one of the girls"? Of course this thread was going to end up with a "Yes you MUST be stealth like I am to be accepted as a woman" post or two..

Stealth is an intermediate phase between passing and assimilating into Society as female.  Stealth is the cat in a fish suit.  The cat experiences life like a cat in a fish suit (instead of experiencing life as a fish), that is Exactly what the Stealth experience is.  We tend to be our experiences, if we never allow ourselves any meaningful social interactions without confessing that we are really a cat in a fish suit then we will never have the experiences necessary in order to begin to believe in ourselves as being fish because we are denying ourselves those experiences by never allowing them to happen.  I used the cat in a fish suit as an analogy, a teaching aid.

Stealth is an idea, the idea that a man can pass as being a female if he looks female and doesn't tell anyone he is really a man.  That is what stealth is.  What an awful idea O_O .  Transition to me is about being who I truly am.  I transitioned as a medical process to fix my body so I could have the life I was previously denied.  I was born with the seed of female planted in me, it was my essence, it was something I had to manifest.  My secret is that I have always been female, not that I am a man passing as a woman.  I am not a cat in a fish suit, I am a fish.  So why should I confess that I am a cat in a fish suit?

Being female after transition is a lot easier than being known as a cat in a fish suit after transition - but it isn't completely necessary (this thing you call Stealth) as long as you don't allow your being a cat to become a discussion.  But once you throw your being female on the bartering table and begin seeking acceptance the playing field is no longer even and it never will be.

Transition is really simple.  I transitioned because I have always been female.  So here is a brief example of how transition worked for me.

Hair
Clothes
Makeup
Voice
Hormones
Surgery
Paperwork
Female Experiences
Belief in one's self as female
Stop saying things women never say
Don't confess to being a man if you are a woman, women never do.  Women aren't guilty, they don't confess.

Everyone transitions for different reasons, this is more true now than it ever was before.  Transition is a thing, someone who doesn't even have a trace of GD might just decide to transition now because it is just another thing people do like cos-play or furries or Gaters.

Someone who transitioned for reasons other than mine should ignore everything I say because perhaps for them being trans is the end goal.  Maybe they just like wearing women's clothes?  Maybe they like the extra attention?  Maybe they enjoy being spectacular and amazing.

I just wanted to fix what was wrong in my life, my body and my social experiences.  I need authentic female social experiences.  If you don't need that then you are way ahead of me and it will be a lot easier for you than it has been for me.  So celebrate, don't argue with someone like me, just enjoy your life! ^_^

[O_O]

I can certainly understand that, letting peole make up their own minds based on how you present in the here and now without the past to cloud their judgement. But I do have to continue to disagree merely because the possibility of being outed is so great. I don't particularly want to have to tell people I'm trans, because like you said I'm a woman, but I'd more afraid of being outed at the wrong time by something I didn't even think of than I am of just doing it myself. Your situation may differ. I have an excessive amount of family and that's a lot of opportunity for people to talk. If you don't have a lot of people that knew you in your past life, the risk might not outweigh the benefits.

So what is the alternative to this fear you are experiencing, outing yourself as a way to deny other people the experience of outing you? 

Before transition I was a very fearful person.  I had never done anything except allow my fears to prevent me from doing things.  After transition I had a realization, I realized that for the first time in my life I had a reason to live.  The reason I had a reason to live was because I finally managed to overcome my fears, the fears that had been preventing me from transitioning.

Before transition my life was worthless.  After I overcame my fears my life was worth living.

Fears tend to be a way to prevent ourselves from doing things we want to do.  Fear is the lazy part of us making excuses for why we shouldn't change anything.  In my experience overcoming fears is rewarding and amazing.  Living under the oppression of fear is slavery.  Fear is an idea, typically circular, our fear ideas go round and round and imprison us, our own thoughts become our master and we become the slave.

A good book to read is Don Miguel Ruiz, 'The Four Agreements'.

[Emily Aster]

I agree that fear is a major problem, but I also see that we're both looking at that problem as being two different sides of the same coin and will probably never agree. To you, the fear seems to be about letting people know you're trans. I know you're not going to agree that that's a fear for you, but from where I'm sitting that's what it looks like. To me the fear is more about people finding out through the rumor mill instead of from my own mouth. The way I confront my fear is to just out myself and not have to worry about it anymore. The way you confront it is going stealth. Is there a right way or a wrong way? Maybe, maybe not. It's your life, not ours. We've all spent enough time living someone else's idea of our own lives to know that the decision is ours alone. All we can say is what we would do and move on. Whether or not you agree, listen, or do the same thing is entirely up to you.