Losing my faith

[stavraki]

a Christian that embraces Salvation in a road that includes atheism is very beautiful.  I would only add that the state of being and mind and of the heart during acts on the path to Salvation is important.  To be in a state of Grace is to know Christ's presence within the heart.  That last sentence need not be so prescriptive to insist that Grace and Christ are inexorably and inextricably fused.  Otherwise, how can states of Grace exist outside of Christianity, and of course they do.

Kind regards stav

[King Malachite]

Seven months after starting this thread I've resolved myself to the fact that I'm happy being agnostic. I'll still look into various beliefs (currently studying Scientology) but I doubt I'll ever follow anything. I just find theology interesting.

Thank you for sharing your transformation with us, Simon.  I find it to be very interesting how many people evolve in their beliefs over time, including myself.

[raindance773]

Heather, thanks for the message.

I've just come to terms with being an analytical person. I've tried and I can't will myself into suspension of disbelief. Do I hope there is something after death? Of course, everyone wants to exist for eternity. I don't knock whatever someone else wants to believe but to me there is no proof.

I know I'm late to the discussion, but I thought I'd throw a thought or two out there.

First, if the God described in the Bible created the Universe as He said he did, then it shows a highly organized and analytical mind. Doesn't 2 Timothy 1:7 say God has given us Spirit of power, and of love, AND A SOUND MIND? The Mind that made the Universe is perfectly able and willing to stand up to human analysis and the proofs of His existence are in His Bible and in His universe. When historians judge ancient manuscripts the use three tests - the internal test (what a document says about itself), the external test (what it says about history), and the bibliographic test (what the manuscripts say about themselves) and NOTHING compares to the Bible. The books of the Old Testament are considered to be the most accurate copies from antiquity because Jewish scribes considered it an affront to God to not copy it exactly.  The New Testament is commonly accepted to have been completed within 70 years of Jesus' Accession and there are over 5000 copies of the original manuscripts, which is unparalleled in ancient literature (Homer's Iliad is a distant second with 650ish copies).  Because of the quality of the Old Testament copies and the quantity of the New Testament copies, the Bible stands unparalleled in its bibliographic accuracy.

Which brings me to point two. Our view of the Bible is wrong: the Bible is not one book, but rather it is 66 books written by about 40 people over the course of at least 1,600 (and probably closer to 2,600) years. The Bible (and I am just using the 66 books of the Protesant canon - not saying the books others keep are wrong, but just not included in the Protestant canon), is not meant to be read as a just handbook on how to live (though it does include that), but as the story of Yahweh and His love for mankind.  Everyone gets hung up on the nasty parts of the Old Testament - the genocide, the slavery, the war, the rape, and everything else and they miss the bigger picture - this is a millennia long story of EPIC proportions.  It is the story of Yahweh's eon long plan to secure the salvation of mankind.  Because of how the individual books of the Bible were written, by dozens of authors over thousands of years, the Bible can only be explained the same way Jesus can - either the greatest fraud, or in the Bible's case hoax, of all time, or something else entirely - something that's origin is not of this world. It can only be one of those two.  We have the Bible as a whole; it wasn't written as a whole - it was assembled long after it was written.  And because we have it as a whole we forget the time between the writing of the various books and the prophecies a d foreshadowings in the Old Testament and their fulfillment years later in the New Testament.   It is easy to miss the foreshadowing of Jesus to come in the first chapter of Genesis and the dozens of foreshadowing of the Christ thoughtful the Old Testament.  The Old Testament and all its ugliness is the logical build up to the New Testament. It is easy to miss the small details that give validity to the Bible, but they are there - they are in small things like the bravery of a prostitue, Rahab, who became the ancestor of King David and by extension Jesus, or that the snake in the Garden of Eden was told EVE's descendant (not Adam's) would crush the head of the serpent.

Third, people miss that God doesn't change from start to finish in the Bible - He begins as holy, and He proves His holiness on the cross at Calvary, and He stands as holy at the end of Revelation.  Yahweh is holy, which is something we as humans cannot comprehend because we are not holy. We are good, but not holy - that is the fundamental difference between Yahweh and mankind.  And He even says that of Himself in Isaiah 55:8 - "my thoughts are not your thoughts and neither are my ways your ways." It's the same now - I have wrestled with my gender identity for as long as I can remember and many times I've asked God why. I will not know until I stand before my King, but I do know that God does know and that He has a purpose for everything. If when He was making me in my mother's womb He saw fit to give me this, then there is a purpose for it even if I cannot see it.

Fourth, the Bible has some pretty cool basis in scientific fact  Job 26:7 says God hangs the earth on nothing (and Job is the oldest of the 66 books). Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above a round Earth - the Church got it wrong in saying the Earth was flat, but not the Bible. Humans get it wrong; God's word does not.

Which really brings me to the end of this. God says His word will last forever and I take it to mean His Bible, His Word will never die; it has survived for millennia and it will continue to survive. Our interpretations will change; the Author's intent never changes though.

If you still aren't sure, you're in good company.  C.S. Lewis was agnostic for decades before meeting Christ the Living Son of God.  If you're interested in theology, I invite you to take up studying apologetics.  They saved my faith when I needed reason to back up what I believed.

[Catalina]

Catalina,
I enjoyed your answer kiddo.

The works we do manifest faith as James said faith without works is dead.

When we have faith and do the works it is as the fruit being seen on the outside of the tree.

Many are quick to say God looks on the heart as with Samuel and David but fail to realize that the fruit of the Spirit is manifested on the outside as well. We know a peach tree is a peach tree when we see the peaches. Even Jesus said from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

As I said, I enjoyed your answer.

May God bless.

Oh, thank you so much, Del! And I do love peaches myself! May you, and all those participating in these forums, be always blessed under Jehovah's nuture and care.

And I love the Book of James. An amazing part of Christian literature!

[Catalina]

a Christian that embraces Salvation in a road that includes atheism is very beautiful.  I would only add that the state of being and mind and of the heart during acts on the path to Salvation is important.  To be in a state of Grace is to know Christ's presence within the heart.  That last sentence need not be so prescriptive to insist that Grace and Christ are inexorably and inextricably fused.  Otherwise, how can states of Grace exist outside of Christianity, and of course they do.

Kind regards stav

Thank you, Stav, for the kind and gentle reminder! For me, the doctrine of universal reconciliation or universal salvation (Christian Universalism) is the most beautiful of beliefs that has been hidden for centuries by but a few (such as Origen). I do not know how any one can ever limit God's infinite love for all of us, even as atheists and agnostics. I am not a literalist, fundamentalist, or what have you, but even if I did take the Bible literally, I find no satisfaction in this religion unless it's Love rests upon all humankind without discrimination.

I find that the Lord Himself created science and philosophy, and the scientific method. It is veritably a fruit upon that Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. When an atheist experiences the beauty of a sunrise, or the love between parent and child, or the spirit of charity towards another fellow human being, I know in my heart that there lies the verysame Holy Spirit, and the Seven Gifts which He bestows upon those that exercise His virtues.

Wherein is love, awe, and reverence, therein to me is the presence of God, the grace of Christ, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

[Brandon]

Ive felt the same way at times but their is a God, Ive had to many close calls to death and Im still in highschool, Ifeel like I don't belong in church either sometimes because of my trans status, But I'm always gonna stay a christian

[Catalina]

Ive felt the same way at times but their is a God, Ive had to many close calls to death and Im still in highschool, Ifeel like I don't belong in church either sometimes because of my trans status, But I'm always gonna stay a christian

Amen, Brandon! There are many good Christian churches out there, by the way, that may be accepting of you: Quakers, certain Episcopalian/Anglican churches (TEC, or ECUSA), certain Lutheran churches, United Church (UCC), Metropolitan Community Church (MCC), and others.

Even then, I really don't that God cares whether we are in church or outside of church, etc. I think what he appreciates more, is a sincere heart, being a good person, and nice guys like you!

God bless, hun.

Your sister in Christ!

[MonHe]

I was a non-believer - for many reasons.

But then I met Him.

He expects our faith to waver - don't punish yourself for it.

He knows your past, present, and future and yet...still loves you unconditionally.

He will show Himself to you at His own timing. <--believe in that at the least. 

[stavraki]

Thank you, Stav, for the kind and gentle reminder! For me, the doctrine of universal reconciliation or universal salvation (Christian Universalism) is the most beautiful of beliefs that has been hidden for centuries by but a few (such as Origen). I do not know how any one can ever limit God's infinite love for all of us, even as atheists and agnostics. I am not a literalist, fundamentalist, or what have you, but even if I did take the Bible literally, I find no satisfaction in this religion unless it's Love rests upon all humankind without discrimination.

I find that the Lord Himself created science and philosophy, and the scientific method. It is veritably a fruit upon that Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. When an atheist experiences the beauty of a sunrise, or the love between parent and child, or the spirit of charity towards another fellow human being, I know in my heart that there lies the verysame Holy Spirit, and the Seven Gifts which He bestows upon those that exercise His virtues.

Wherein is love, awe, and reverence, therein to me is the presence of God, the grace of Christ, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

U r fully welcome - lovely to meet u.  I love this thread, and always end up weeping as I read through the prose.  Grace, I suppose is the State I always reach to, or realise or find or reconnect with as I read, and your posts are 'just so'.  Thank you for your beautiful, beautiful messages.  Amen  and may Spirit ever reach you, so that any ailment of Spirit you face in challenge be healed ever more quickly.  Awe, surrender, compassion and acceptance - stav

[Sibila]

The whole idea of some poor carpenter suffering on a cross just for me is cinematic to say the least. So are the big, beautiful historic churchs involved. I always wished our family was Catholic for that reason. Going to confess to some ancient priest hidden behind a door - that sounds kinda hot. (I mean absolutely no offense to any Catholics, but to an outsider it sounds awesome.) And declaring myself a horrible, wretched, undeserving sinner saved by the blood of a crucified god? Sign me up! Really, when you think about it, these concepts are pretty hot. (Hey, Madonna thinks so too.)

hahahahah!
I was raised catholic but missed out on that too... and I missed out on a good spanking!
Would love to have been catrated at a young age and be forced to sing in a church choir (or italian opera in female clothes).
These times dont sound so bad when you are in the right place and the right time.
I also love the church music and art....especially baroque, its just brilliant... best ever, to my humble opinion.

I have been struggling with faith a lot and I would like to have more comfort and peace from faith but each time find
myself unable to have hope and trust. Even though my spirituality is very individual (and I like it that way) I still find it
hard to trust even in my own experiences. But I will get there, one day! Im sure!

For me its all about love and inspiration.

And a good spanking.

[AlarmedGibbon]

I have been struggling with faith a lot and I would like to have more comfort and peace from faith but each time find
myself unable to have hope and trust.

I can sympathize! The idea of faith has been made very confusing by the tendency in society (and in conversations with religious people) to slip between two meanings of the word while still in the same conversation, and without realizing that two distinct meanings of faith are being used. I will call them here Good Faith and Bad Faith, and I hope to show they are indeed distinct.

Good Faith is a combination of experience and trust, and most importantly, is based on evidence. It is a belief about something that while difficult or impossible to prove, is nonetheless based on evidence. I have faith that I will have the strength to live on, even if I encounter a very difficult time in my life. I have no proof I can offer, but this is still based on evidence. I've lost both my mom and my dad, and have gone through some very difficult times, but I believe I know myself well enough at this point to have faith that I will soldier on, regardless of what comes my way. Good Faith can similarly be applied to judgments about other people whom you have had interactions with, and those interactions are the basis of your evidence to hold this faith in these people. Faith that your best friend will not disown you if you come out to them as transgender. Etc. You're putting "faith" in something, but it's not based on nothing. It's based on something undeniably real, even if you turn out to be mistaken in the end, at least it was a judgement based on real evidence. This is the kind of faith that gets us out of bed in the morning, and all of our positive connotations with the word faith come from this meaning of it.

Bad Faith, on the other hand, is when you are asked to believe in something that there is really no good reason to believe, or no evidence for. The people asking you to believe these things rely instead on a notion they call faith, because they simply have nothing else they can point to. If it isn't obvious already, religions and gods fall into this category. When people say they have faith in god, what they are saying is that they have faith that their god is real and true. What is this based on? At that point, if they don't point to their holy books as proof (which they are not), they'll point right back at Bad Faith, as if it's proven something, when really they're just restating their original unfounded belief. That's circular logic. You just have to have faith, they'll say. It's really quite meaningless in that way. It's as if the Bad Faith itself is offered up as some sort of good reason to believe that the Christian god is real and true, when there's really no good reason to believe that. A Christian has no better reason for believing in the Christian god than the Greeks had for believing in Zeus. In Bad Faith, there is no way to distinguish between these non-evidence-based claims.

I refer to Bad Faith as Bad Faith because this non-skeptical viewpoint has terrible consequences in our world. Bad Faith is how otherwise sane people are convinced to believe things like god created the earth 6000 years ago, and that men once rode astride dinosaurs. Or that there are 72 virgins waiting in paradise for you, and if you die a martyr, you skip the waiting phase (along with your family), and go straight to heaven. There's no evidence for any of this; to believe it, you just have to have faith. Specifically, you have to have Bad Faith.

[mowdan6]

Hey raindance773.  Great post.  I too have struggled why God made me this way.  Then I remember Romans 8:28, " And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."   Great post my friend.

[Talitha Cumi]

Hello everyone,

Thank you Si for starting this thread (?) This is only my second post so I'm not sure of terminology. I also love and keep returning to this thread, its a wonderful experience. I have a deep felt need to respond in spite of the late timing and the last post warning.

To answer your question. Yes, I struggle with faith. I struggle with my experience of faith seeking understanding of the action and presence of God in my life. However, I can now say my faith in God is unshakable, my understanding of my experience of God is, for me at times, enigmatic but always fascinating.

I hope the following might be helpful. It took me a long time, through prayer of the heart and reading scripture, to come to this personal overview of Jesus' fundamental message:

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen (Heb. 11:1)

This is St Paul' defining description of the meaning of the word 'faith' and it is a logical definition in the context in which it is found. St Paul's definition of faith describes what he understands as having occurred through an encounter with the living God in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Rahab the prostitute and even in himself at the gates of Damascus. Note well, St Paul puts a prostitute alongside the patriarchs as favoured by God with the gift of faith.
   
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

In the context of our encounter with God, the only one who can give an assurance of things we hope for or convince us of things that are unseen is God. No one else but God has the wherewithal to underwrite this definition of the meaning of the word faith. St Paul had his own direct experience of this definition of faith at the gates of Damascus. As you will recall, St Paul was a Pharisee and believed in the resurrection of the dead, unlike the Sadducees who did not. St Paul's hope in the resurrection was confirmed when the risen Christ addressed the question to him, "Why are you persecuting Me". Jesus' intervention in the life of St Paul was a gift of faith. From this understanding, we can see faith is not blind, faith is not without reason, and God is not without an ironical sense of humour.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

After John the Baptist was killed Jesus began to preach the following "repent and believe the kingdom of God is close at hand". In many ways this is an enigmatic statement by Jesus. Perhaps it was to elicit or provoke interest in his listeners to seek to understand the significance of what was being said to them. To understand the scriptural meaning of The Kingdom of God requires effort and searching. We need to look closely at the meaning of these particular words in Jesus' statement, "The Kingdom of God is close at hand" because they lead us to our own personal experience of the presence of God, in other words our own personal experience of faith. Jesus' announcement of the imminence of the kingdom of God is the principal gospel message.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

St Matthew tells us to, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness and all the things you need will be given to you". St Luke tells us the Kingdom of God is within us. St Paul tells us the Kingdom of God is joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and also tells us we shall know when we have received the Holy Spirit because our spirit unites with the Spirit of Jesus and we cry Abba Father. When his disciples asked Him how to pray Jesus told them saying. Our Father... Thy Kingdom come... Thy Will be done.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

Immerse yourself in prayer of the heart, persevere in prayer of the heart, dare to believe and God will reveal himself to you in fullness giving you the gift of faith. It is said St Francis of Assisi could not finish the second word of the Lord's prayer... Father. It is a lived example of how St Paul describes receiving the Holy Spirit. This experience is your birth right as a baptised Christian, I have had the same experience myself and I'm not alone. Pray... pray... pray to God with all your heart until God reveals Himself to you in profound peace and silence. Then you will be given the courage, perception and strength to live as a child of God.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

St John tells us, "Eternal life.... is to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent" Pray with the heart until you experience the presence of God within you...it is unmistakable you will be overwhelmed with peace and joy. Then, live the Lord's Prayer and you will enter into eternal life, which is begun now. The personal experience of faith as defined by St Paul leads naturally to Hope and Hope naturally leads to love of God and each other. The only fruit that God is looking for in His children is Love, God is Love, and eternal life is to become love. Where you see and experience kindness, patience, forgiveness, forbearance and hope you experience love, you experience the presence of God.

Fix this in your heart and mind....  "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen." Faith is not without reason it is a most precious gift from God!

Again, many thanks for starting this thread, God bless, Talitha.

[JLT1]

I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.

As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.

I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.

Anyone else struggle with faith?

Struggle?  Me?  Every day. 

Before I get to carried away, you state that "the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one" (a God.)
I think you have probably heard all the standard lines of evidence.  So my question to you is, "What evidence would help your faith?"  Give me some option here as I'm not all knowing.

Jen

[King Malachite]

Hello everyone,

Thank you Si for starting this thread (?) This is only my second post so I'm not sure of terminology. I also love and keep returning to this thread, its a wonderful experience. I have a deep felt need to respond in spite of the late timing and the last post warning.

To answer your question. Yes, I struggle with faith. I struggle with my experience of faith seeking understanding of the action and presence of God in my life. However, I can now say my faith in God is unshakable, my understanding of my experience of God is, for me at times, enigmatic but always fascinating.

I hope the following might be helpful. It took me a long time, through prayer of the heart and reading scripture, to come to this personal overview of Jesus' fundamental message:

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen (Heb. 11:1)

This is St Paul' defining description of the meaning of the word 'faith' and it is a logical definition in the context in which it is found. St Paul's definition of faith describes what he understands as having occurred through an encounter with the living God in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Rahab the prostitute and even in himself at the gates of Damascus. Note well, St Paul puts a prostitute alongside the patriarchs as favoured by God with the gift of faith.
   
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

In the context of our encounter with God, the only one who can give an assurance of things we hope for or convince us of things that are unseen is God. No one else but God has the wherewithal to underwrite this definition of the meaning of the word faith. St Paul had his own direct experience of this definition of faith at the gates of Damascus. As you will recall, St Paul was a Pharisee and believed in the resurrection of the dead, unlike the Sadducees who did not. St Paul's hope in the resurrection was confirmed when the risen Christ addressed the question to him, "Why are you persecuting Me". Jesus' intervention in the life of St Paul was a gift of faith. From this understanding, we can see faith is not blind, faith is not without reason, and God is not without an ironical sense of humour.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

After John the Baptist was killed Jesus began to preach the following "repent and believe the kingdom of God is close at hand". In many ways this is an enigmatic statement by Jesus. Perhaps it was to elicit or provoke interest in his listeners to seek to understand the significance of what was being said to them. To understand the scriptural meaning of The Kingdom of God requires effort and searching. We need to look closely at the meaning of these particular words in Jesus' statement, "The Kingdom of God is close at hand" because they lead us to our own personal experience of the presence of God, in other words our own personal experience of faith. Jesus' announcement of the imminence of the kingdom of God is the principal gospel message.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

St Matthew tells us to, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness and all the things you need will be given to you". St Luke tells us the Kingdom of God is within us. St Paul tells us the Kingdom of God is joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and also tells us we shall know when we have received the Holy Spirit because our spirit unites with the Spirit of Jesus and we cry Abba Father. When his disciples asked Him how to pray Jesus told them saying. Our Father... Thy Kingdom come... Thy Will be done.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

Immerse yourself in prayer of the heart, persevere in prayer of the heart, dare to believe and God will reveal himself to you in fullness giving you the gift of faith. It is said St Francis of Assisi could not finish the second word of the Lord's prayer... Father. It is a lived example of how St Paul describes receiving the Holy Spirit. This experience is your birth right as a baptised Christian, I have had the same experience myself and I'm not alone. Pray... pray... pray to God with all your heart until God reveals Himself to you in profound peace and silence. Then you will be given the courage, perception and strength to live as a child of God.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."

St John tells us, "Eternal life.... is to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent" Pray with the heart until you experience the presence of God within you...it is unmistakable you will be overwhelmed with peace and joy. Then, live the Lord's Prayer and you will enter into eternal life, which is begun now. The personal experience of faith as defined by St Paul leads naturally to Hope and Hope naturally leads to love of God and each other. The only fruit that God is looking for in His children is Love, God is Love, and eternal life is to become love. Where you see and experience kindness, patience, forgiveness, forbearance and hope you experience love, you experience the presence of God.

Fix this in your heart and mind....  "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen." Faith is not without reason it is a most precious gift from God!

Again, many thanks for starting this thread, God bless, Talitha.

This was very beautiful, Talitha and I enjoyed what you had to say.  The most important word was "faith".

I would like to do a follow-up on what I said several months ago.

This is a little late but I'm somewhat struggling with a similar issue right now.  I was raised up non-denominational (but closer to Pentacostal) and I was sort of the odd person out in the church and never really felt the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, felt the need to jump around, cry etc. I was more like a brick wall,  I'm even one of the Sunday school teachers.  I was raised up Christian and had so many questions about it that went unanswered and for the last few days I've been lurking at an ex Christian forum.  I shouldn't have done that but after reading a lot of their reasons for why they went atheist,  I feel my faith wavering and slowly crumbling but I so really want to keep it when they see the evidence pointing to otherwise. I'm almost afraid to start searching deeper because of this fear. I start to question if I've ever really heard from God or if that was just me. I asked him to give me a sign to confirm his existance this morning and nothing happened.  However,  I just can't accept that there is no God.  Like Admin said, the thought of a capenter dying on the cross for me just sounds very more cinematic as opposed to some explosion that made the world (though these two events are unrelated).

I don't know.

Well, eventually I got the answer I was looking for.  God spoke to me concerning wanting "signs" of His existence and he basically told me something along the lines of "How could you think I don't exist?  Take a look around at nature and what I've created."  My eyes were suddenly opened.  It was like a "duh" moment of me and how foolish of me to think otherwise and immediately asked for forgiveness.  Later on I found out that this was actually backed up by Romans 1:20.  Even then, I still had some trouble belieiving and wrapping my mind around it, but I pretty much told myself that I'm going to keep believing no matter how I feel.  The next Sunday, it was my cousin asked if I wanted to teach the children that day so she could stay up front and listen to the service, so I agreed to do it.  When I got the lesson, it was a lesson about faith and the main scripture for that day was Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."  I can say that was the best lesson I have EVER taught because it helped me.  Even the kids were amazed about how eager I was to teach that lesson.  From then on out my faith has gotten nothing but stronger.  I love faith now!  God was probably laughing and thinking "he not going anywhere.  He's staying right here with me."  I'm glad he doesn't let his sheep stray too far!



 

Thanks everyone.  I've pretty much came to a similar point like yours Simon, where I believe in Jesus (more for security reasons than anything), but I try to keep an open mind concerning the Bible, especially the old testament, since it's pretty much a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.  I find that being more of a liberal Christian helps me find somewhat of a balance between the fanatical Christian and the unshakable Atheist.  I do hope that I continue to evole in my beliefs and interpretations though.

I still keep an open mind concerning the Bible and possible interpretations, but now when I see scriptures from the KJV bible, instead of me going "it's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy" (though I still think it is in a sense) I just say, "hey, the Bible says it, I believe it."

It's funny you mention that, because one of the pastors I follow on Youtube has a clip of his sermon that is titled "Pastors who preach from the NIV AREN'T SAVED!"  lol  This guy is a KJV Onlyist and he actually rejects other Bibles as the SSV, NKJV, NWT, etc.

Ironically enough, I'm pretty much a KJV Onlyist now.

[DriftingCrow]

$10 says a lot of people are gonna give me hate for this.

No hate, we all have opinions. You just might want to check this post out: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13517.0.html   

Just seems inappropriate for a board set up for Christian support/discussion.

[stavraki]

I love this thread, I'm going to try to resurrect it (pardon pun ).

As much as the scientific rationalist in me demands evidence, fact and pursues the hypothetico-deductive traditions of hypothesis testing, as I age, I have found that Faith and science are not at all mutually exclusive.

I start, with a hardcore rationalist with their experience of awe.  That for me, is our joining point, between those of spiritual faith and those of other non spiritual affiliations.  When Carl Sagan looked out at the universe, he was awed by the vastness.  Awe transports us beyond ourselves, into a place beyond anything and anyone we know.  That humbling experience reminds us that the Universe or Multiverse becomes increasingly unfathomable as more is discovered about it.  Perhaps to say, 'the more questions that are answered, the more that emerge'.  For me, and to the scientists, that's good enough an overlap between those of faith and those who say they have none.

Kind Regards
stav

[JLT1]

I love this thread, I'm going to try to resurrect it (pardon pun ).

As much as the scientific rationalist in me demands evidence, fact and pursues the hypothetico-deductive traditions of hypothesis testing, as I age, I have found that Faith and science are not at all mutually exclusive.

stav

Faith and science are not mutually exclusive.

For almost 20 years, I was in the laboratory, making things, measuring things and then arriving at a conclusion or course of action based on those observations.  Most science follows that reasoning.  The difference between the experimentalist and the theorist is that once the conclusion is made, the experimentalist will confirm the accuracy of the conclusion.  Many people who use observations to arrive at a conclusion never test or can never test the accuracy.  It's easy to be correct when the answer is not or cannot be challenged.  I would put both evolution and theism in the category.

We cannot "prove" anything.  We can only disprove competing theories.  A scientist has to make their answer much more probable than any competing answer.   Based on everything I know about chemistry and about how life works at a molecular level.  The evidence supporting intelligent design is much stronger than the evidence supporting evolution.  The intelligent design thing leads me to Christianity and Christ.  (Unfortunately, most of those who call themselves "Christian" tend to push me away but that is actually expected.)

God gave us a brain.  We need to use it.

Hugs,

Jen

[Emo]

i think you should try going to a place of healing.
find a church where the have the more "mystical" stuff and just visit.
seeing a miraculous healing or being healed yourself can be a life changing event.
i am blessed enough to have faith no matter the amount of proof in my life. in fact the less proof i have, the more faith i have.
its natural to doubt. i have in my own growth as a christian.
i found an article in a magazine once (i might try to find a link) that had talk of how the laws of physics and the makeup of the universe was "unnaturally" perfect for life. their word not mine.
to me the deeper you get into science, the more proof there is of a god. the problem is, its based only on our own understanding. and this can be very limiting.

[Emo]

Its funny to me that an all poweferul god cannot be kind to everyone, whether they believe or not. Its just odd that he would require you to praise him in order for him to save you. How is he benefiting from people praising him. Maybe he has really bad self confidence or he's just a totaljerk.

constantine had prayed to the christian god for help in battle and it happened.
i dont think the question is who he is kind to, it who asks for his kindness. not many nonbeliever pray to him. and if you dont ask for it, how can he give it to you?
its true he knows our every need. but why would he say "ask and you shall recieve." if he didnt want us to ask?
he wants us to know he is there for us. we call to him and he answers. and he expects the same from us.
love is a 2 way street.