Is transition selfish?

[AlexD]

You make this too easy! :-)   With YOUR values, what would be the cost of standing there and doing NOTHING?  I will let YOU answer what you got out of doing such an incredible but selfish act...

Ooh, you're good. She stumped me.

(PS: is the anti-bot questioner sentient? It's asking me about fire engines. :p)

[Anna++]

many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view

At the end of the day, selfishness is still just a human concept and there are many ways of looking at what we do.

Has anybody transitioned for somebody else? (the altruistic viewpoint).  You could frame it this way:  Staying alive but in the opposite gender would make your family happier than if you were to commit suicide.  So looking at it this way, no you are not being selfish.

[Shawn Sunshine]

If you strip our actions down a simple logical argument, then our entire purpose in life is ensure the continuation of the species

But not everyone can do that, some women cannot have children and nor can some men, some intersex folks cannot have children either, as a transsexual person once you have transitioned you probably cannot have your own biological children at that point. If there were just 2 transgender people left on the planet (who could reproduce) it would be selfish to not want to reproduce and save the human race from extinction, but we have enough people making babies on the planet now so, there's no issue there.

But i think it would be more selfish to hide the truth from people, and live a life where you could not really have happy and healthy relationships, always feeling depressed and out of sync with everyone. Being the best version of yourself will end up making you more able to help other people.

[AlexD]

But not everyone can do that, some women cannot have children and nor can some men, some intersex folks cannot have children either, as a transsexual person once you have transitioned you probably cannot have your own biological children at that point. If there were just 2 transgender people left on the planet (who could reproduce) it would be selfish to not want to reproduce and save the human race from extinction, but we have enough people making babies on the planet now so, there's no issue there.

That was exactly my point -- trying to boil an argument down to a simple "is this right or not?" question is silly, because there's always a million other factors being ignored.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Ahh ok 

Well my family is going to see this as hurting them and as a selfish act, at least most of them would. But if i do this thing I think I would be more at peace and then have more energy and time to dedicate myself to others.

[JessicaH]

Is it?

If you strip our actions down a simple logical argument, then our entire purpose in life is ensure the continuation of the species, in which case a trans person who gets SRS or kills themselves before having kids is selfish; whereas one who gets SRS or kills themelves after having kids is not selfish.

But that argument is ridiculous because it's ignoring the thousands of other factors that make us do what we do. Self-preservation can be selfish or noble or both. It's always going to be a balancing act, so I guess we just have to do whatever seems like the right thing to do and hope we made the right decision.

I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do.  This desire and the offspring are so important to us that we would kill or die for them.

[AlexD]

I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do.  This desire and the offspring are so important to us that we would kill or die for them.

True. I suppose natural selection is paradoxical like that -- continuation of the species is paramount, but we accomplish that by doing our best to screw over our kin in favour of our own offspring.

It's one reason why I'm not a fan of the "natural = good" argument. Nature is a brutal, unforgiving SOB.

[Kevin Peña]

You make this too easy! :-)   With YOUR values, what would be the cost of standing there and doing NOTHING?  I will let YOU answer what you got out of doing such an incredible but selfish act...

Well, I felt good, but then again, I can feel good by eating some eggs. I like to see it as me being altruistic as a result of parental near-abandonment issues. My parents split when I was young, and I barely get to see my dad (one day per week, if I'm lucky). Thus, I'm left with my less-than-ideal mother (to put it nicely). I at least have parents who I get to see, but I will be darned if another person would lose someone he/she cared about. I remember one time when we were too late, and the building started to collapse. A little boy's dad was still in the building. He tossed his son (who was too scared to jump) onto the trampoline device we use to catch people when they want to jump to safety, but we weren't quick enough to set up for the kid's dad. The place collapsed and when all was said and done, we found his body, completely burnt like an overcooked turkey. The look on that kid's face was the worst thing you could've ever seen. I only looked at it for a few seconds, but it felt like hours. He then asked me the most tear-jerking question ever: "If I wasn't so scared, would there have been enough time?" The worst part was that all I could do for him was give him a hug and someone else to cry with. That was his dad, my failure. I will carry that with me like everything else.

There is nothing I get out of doing what I do that actually logically justifies the risk of fire, collapsing buildings, smoke inhalation, heat exhaustion, etc. There are some things in this world that we do without selfish reasons. I know you meant well and only wanted to prove a logical point, but PLEASE don't say that everything people do is selfish, especially around a volunteer fire unit. You will receive a mouthful. I'm sorry if I came across as callous.


Anywho... I've digressed long enough.

(PS: is the anti-bot questioner sentient? It's asking me about fire engines. :p)

I don't even know what that means. 

At the end of the day, selfishness is still just a human concept and there are many ways of looking at what we do.

Has anybody transitioned for somebody else? (the altruistic viewpoint).  You could frame it this way:  Staying alive but in the opposite gender would make your family happier than if you were to commit suicide.  So looking at it this way, no you are not being selfish.

Way to flip-flop, Romney (sorry, I couldn't resist). 

I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do.

Especially when no one actually NEEDS kids. 

It's one reason why I'm not a fan of the "natural = good" argument. Nature is a brutal, unforgiving SOB.

I hear that! 

[JessicaH]

Let's quantify the question and get a little bit scientific. A weighted cost/benefit analysis for the affected, defected and aggrieved parties.

no.       Who           Average discomfort level (ADL)   x    Hours per month effected (Time)   =(WS)               *weighted score(WS) =(ADL)(T)
1        Mom                    6                                                 30                                         180                                                                       
2         Dad                     8                                                 02                                         16                                                                       
3          Brother                7                                                 10                                         70   

Now, calculate and compare YOUR (WS) score against theirs considering that you have to spend  an average of 730 hours a month in the wrong body to please people that may see you a few hours a month or year.

no.       Who           Average discomfort level (ADL)   x    Hours per month effected (Time)   =(WS)               *weighted score(WS) =(ADL)(T)
1           Me                    8                                                 730                                        5840                 


Would be interesting if someone smarter than me would take this idea and put some real science behind the numbers.

                                               


                                                                 

[Kevin Peña]

I think that was some good logic.

[Anna++]

Way to flip-flop, Romney (sorry, I couldn't resist). 

I have no problem changing my views when new information in presented or when i've had more time to consider everything (or apparently when I think about Star Wars)

[Violet Bloom]

  Allow me to simply relate the short-form story of my life.  I was so afraid of offending anyone because I was incredibly shy that I spent my entire life masking my behaviours more and more over time.  I also went above and beyond in both my jobs and volunteer charity work to the great detriment of my free time and eventually my health.  I tried so hard to do what it took to please everyone, often ignoring my need for rest and recreation and going years without even a weekend vacation.  I figured if I worked hard enough, long enough, that eventually it would pay off and I'd have time to myself and feel better.  But the cycle never ended and I turned into a lifeless zombie, or perhaps more a robot flashing a smile on command and saying and doing all the right things while feeling horrible and doing nothing much but work, eat and sleep excessively.  Because I am incapable of taking my own life I would have completely run myself into the ground eventually.

  So I will tell you what I told my mother when I came out to her.  Finally stepping back from all this and taking charge of my health and my emotional being no matter how anyone else feels about it represents the first truly selfish thing I will do in my life, but it is an absolutely necessary thing.  I finally don't care about consequences - I could die happy tomorrow knowing that for once I took control and put myself first.  For me transition is entirely selfish.

[Chaos]

If your one like me,who (through most of your life) was a selfless person,putting others first,for example-giving your last dollar,your last bit of food or something like this,then yes those who have gotten used to you being this way,will 100% see you as selfish for putting yourself first in anything.My opinion is that it depends,if you are one who is so used to putting everyone else first,but being put last then you reach a point where it is your life or pleasing someone else then no i do not see it as selfish.So i guess in all,it depends on the person and how you are seen.

[Kevin Peña]

I have no problem changing my views when new information in presented or when i've had more time to consider everything (or apparently when I think about Star Wars)

It was a joke... *chirp, chirp*

Anywho, us transitioners who aren't suicidal: are we selfish? 

  Allow me to simply relate the short-form story of my life.  I was so afraid of offending anyone because I was incredibly shy that I spent my entire life masking my behaviours more and more over time.  I also went above and beyond in both my jobs and volunteer charity work to the great detriment of my free time and eventually my health.  I tried so hard to do what it took to please everyone, often ignoring my need for rest and recreation and going years without even a weekend vacation.  I figured if I worked hard enough, long enough, that eventually it would pay off and I'd have time to myself and feel better.  But the cycle never ended and I turned into a lifeless zombie, or perhaps more a robot flashing a smile on command and saying and doing all the right things while feeling horrible and doing nothing much but work, eat and sleep excessively.  Because I am incapable of taking my own life I would have completely run myself into the ground eventually.

  So I will tell you what I told my mother when I came out to her.  Finally stepping back from all this and taking charge of my health and my emotional being no matter how anyone else feels about it represents the first truly selfish thing I will do in my life, but it is an absolutely necessary thing.  I finally don't care about consequences - I could die happy tomorrow knowing that for once I took control and put myself first.  For me transition is entirely selfish.

What's that? Could that be my huggy senses tingling bounding?

[Violet Bloom]

What's that? Could that be my huggy senses tingling?

  Just a tingle, huh?  I thought I was more stimulating than that

(I very much appreciate the sentiment.  Hugs back )

[AlexD]

Anywho, us transitioners who aren't suicidal: are we selfish? 

I hope my earlier post didn't make you think that only suicidal transpeople can be unselfish. That wasn't my goal at all -- it was just one example. Your feelings don't need to be extreme to be valid; "more worthy than thou" thinking is poisonous, if seductive. -_-

[Shawn Sunshine]

This article here suggests that what is really going on when we are being selfish for ourselves is simply being assertive and giving ourselves what we need.

It seems that often it is not until we are much older, and no longer as dependent on our parents emotionally, that we begin to unlearn this association between actually being selfish, and asking for what we need in a relationship. Until we have achieved this distinction in our minds and take the risk to care for ourselves in ways that may, at times, not make others in our lives happy, our people-pleasing will actually hurt us (we are left with unspoken wishes, unmet needs, and a lot of resentment) and our relationships (don't you think that resentment is going to seep out sometime?). So perhaps a way to ease into breaking out of the people-pleaser role is to realize that you cannot truly please others until you please yourself.

http://drsusanaxtell.com/is-it-ever-right-to-be-selfish/

[Kevin Peña]

I hope my earlier post didn't make you think that only suicidal transpeople can be unselfish. That wasn't my goal at all -- it was just one example. Your feelings don't need to be extreme to be valid; "more worthy than thou" thinking is poisonous, if seductive. -_-

It didn't, and I don't think that you have to be extreme to be valid. I simply saw the "being alive instead of dead as a service to others" idea being used frequently, so I was simply asking what the case would be for a non-suicidal person.

[crazy at the coast]

I don't think transition in and of itself is selfish. There are some situations where it could be considered selfish to transition, such that the lives you affect are very close, such as spouses and minor children that depend on you. And then there are things you do during transition that could be selfish, such as not providing properly for someone you are responsible for while using resources to transition. 

A lot of people claim that transition is selfish because it affects them in some way(it doesn't even have to be directly) and those people are often being fairly selfish in their expectations.

[peky]

The short answer is: "yes! and it is OK to be selfish in this case"


The more relevant question is how do you proceed when an spouse and children are involved?