Salem College transgender student wants to stay on all-female campus as man

[Jamie D]

The Fox8 story is also a nearly verbatim copy of the local news article from the Winston-Salem newspaper.

Actually, it was a copy, and they cited their source on the page.  My comment points more at your disdain for the source of the article.  Would you have felt differently had the source been MSNBC?

If so, here you go ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50443424/ns/local_news-raleigh_nc/t/salem-college-weighs-future-transgender-student/#.UPOVm2fhdO0

[aleon515]

It seems like other colleges have policies on it, but not Salem (maybe the first time, but who knows). It seems like something they need to think about carefully and not have a knee-jerk response. Though according to the policies of some schools, he couldn't stay (no hormones, surgery etc.) Article assumes he has had bottom surgery (requires taking T for more than a year)-- seems like I read that in another article. Some of the other stories, the kids are much earlier in their transitions. But still I think it would be a hard thing. As this is where their relationships are and so forth. Not much info in the very short article. I guess I could kind of understand it.

Not sure what kind of "advantages" he would get to staying, aside from a degree at said college. He might also have a bit of 'splaining' to do. I'd say if you are socialized female, the socialization is very powerful.

BTW, this is an Associated Press article-- not Fox, MSNBC, etc.

--Jay

[Elspeth]

Actually, it was a copy, and they cited their source on the page.  My comment points more at your disdain for the source of the article.  Would you have felt differently had the source been MSNBC?

I suppose I was unclear. I thought the article was poorly written, looking to create the appearance of a conflict that was largely manufactured or imagined, and not particularly newsworthy. The weakness of the writing and the editorial judgement had nothing to do with Fox, since the original source was almost certainly the local paper... same for the summary "reblogged" by MSNBC, and by all appearances also cribbed from the same thin source.

Compare the story to the NYT feature and you may see why I consider the first to be a waste of time and the latter to be fairly well-done, in terms of offering insight and analysis on a question a lot of women's colleges are facing, and appear to be treating with considerable thought and respect. Given that Salem College has at least one faculty member who has published on FTM issues (who was NOT featured in the article in any way), and given the careful statement of the trustees' spokesman, who said nothing definite, and was guarding the student's confidentiality, I have every reason to think that Salem College is doing the same, even though that's a hard conclusion to draw from the poorly conceived, mediocre-ly written and poorly edited "news" article.

The Salem College story should probably have been shelved until the College actually took some action. As written, all it was was a gossip piece, and maybe a moment of poor editorial judgement by an editor who may have been getting hectored by the alumna with an agenda of her own, that probably should have been investigated and added as part of the story before committing it to press.  Then again, journalistic responsibility in the age of blogs is nearly an extinct notion that many consider quaint.

PS: I went back to check whether the Winston-Salem Journal article was an AP product. It appears to have been bylined by one of the Journal's reporters, so I don't see where this allegation is coming from. Perhaps the AP syndicated a piece cribbing from the article? I strongly recommend taking a look at comments, especially those from current Salem College students, who seem outraged by the irresponsible nature of the article and fully supportive of the student (who apparently is nowhere close to having had bottom surgery, not that that would necessarily be relevant). The students' comments I read are highly encouraging that the college is doing the right thing here by avoiding adding fuel to flames that seem to be coming from people with bad info and a personal axe to grind.

[Elspeth]

It is mistaken to confuse a network-affiliate with the network itself, or the Fox News Channel.

By the by, my snark about Fox was made before Zythra re-edited the original post. I suppose I should have deleted it or re-edited it once she clarified and had cited the original source article, since this is largely an irrelevant  sideshow issue now and distraction from the central issues surrounding the story itself (as published). You're commenting on something I wrote when the only source happened to include the deficit of Fox branding.

I have a low opinion of the quality of journalism today in general, if that's not entirely obvious from my follow-up. It's not limited to Fox or its affiliates.  Still, branding is branding. Those who live by it, may also die by it, deservedly or not.

[aleon515]

PS: I went back to check whether the Winston-Salem Journal article was an AP product. It appears to have been bylined by one of the Journal's reporters, so I don't see where this allegation is coming from. Perhaps the AP syndicated a piece cribbing from the article? I strongly recommend taking a look at comments, especially those from current Salem College students, who seem outraged by the irresponsible nature of the article and fully supportive of the student (who apparently is nowhere close to having had bottom surgery, not that that would necessarily be relevant). The students' comments I read are highly encouraging that the college is doing the right thing here by avoiding adding fuel to flames that seem to be coming from people with bad info and a personal axe to grind.

If you look at the MSNBC and NBC story, there is a AP byline--there is no AP byline on the Winston Salem story. I don't know precisely how AP works, but they probably did pick it up from elsewhere. The WS story used the term "gender reassignment surgery". I wondered how the heck a college student could afford that anyway. My guess is top surgery since I thought the article said had had the surgery necessary to go from female to male. I don't know why they say "is completing surgery" since it is generally a one shot deal (bad writing??). In that case it is possible to not even have had T.

If that is the case, we could have a student who is not passing at all. So it is pretty clear to see why the person might not want to go elsewhere, if mostly accepted by peers and staff as male. He may, in fact, feel more male at Salem, than he would any where else. Of course the article is so badly written you wouldn't know, though I respect Salem for not disclosing info.

The letters to the editor indicate that the article itself my not actually be true. Or at least very very exaggerated. Oh shock of shocks.

--Jay


It's too bad that they didn't ask the professor at Salem anything.

[cynthialee]

you can pose all the socialogical and touchy feely reasons why this man should be alowed to stay in a womens university until you are blue in the face

it feels wrong
he is a man
it is a womens university
he should respect womens space and leave

[LilDevilOfPrada]

He is a man...

Really why would he transition if all he was gonna do is use women only dorms...

To me sounds like someone who actually want 100% sure they were a man and regrets it now..

Obviously we dont actually enough to believe anything but hes a man so he is well not elcome into womens dorms...

Its pure logic and his seems flawed.

[suzifrommd]

I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

[LilDevilOfPrada]

I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Think of it this way if a cis-male asked to join its a straight no, why should he be treated any differently?

[suzifrommd]

Think of it this way if a cis-male asked to join its a straight no, why should he be treated any differently?

Yes. As I said in my earlier post, he was already admitted there, has completed part of his education, has made a home and friends there, and has committed no crime, only faced up to his gender issues.

[cynthialee]

If he is reading this post so what?

I stand behind what I have said.

If you are a man you shouldn't be in a womens university. You are doing something that will alienate some folks and you are giving amunition to radfems.

[Elspeth]

I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Yes, yes, yes.

I'm deeply disappointed that some are reading the topline summary and taking it at face value. Especially when there is so little pressure from at least some of these women's colleges to withdraw support from "sisters" who go on to become men, and from trying to dig into this deeper, Salem College seems to be one of that number. Salem students commenting on the story point out that there has been pressure from within to create a more specific transgender policy, but that the progress has yet to be made on that, and the implication seems fairly clear that students, staff and faculty are not where any pressure is coming from for this student to go elsewhere.

Perhaps it will be appropriate for him to find other housing, for instance. But that should be between him, fellow students and administrative judgements, not a matter for public debate among people who have a clearly distorted picture of the actual and specific details.

I'm sorry if I'm perseverating on this, but I am dealing with many of these issues in connection with my son, who has a full scholarship waiting for him at a coed university, and who has been dealing with accomodation issues at the gap year program where he went, in part to deal with some of these issues before going on to college. It's not nearly as simple as some seem to think it is.

By, the way, I'd been trying to talk my son into participating here, but I have to be concerned now, granted, he has already been exposed to far worse knee-jerk reactions and spot judgments on Tumblr, I'm sure.

My son, for instance, entered his gap year program wanting to be housed in either a coed shared house or a males-only house. Safety concerns and other considerations led the admin of the program to put him in a house with 5 women. He has been identifying male with them (and was clear that was his intent before the housing arrangements were made). There has been little harassment or complaint, but it is not a comfortable situation for him and is part of what led to him taking a break from the program after Thanksgiving. (He returned there, yesterday, and he now has a different housing arrangment, but it is still not simple, given where he is in terms of transition).

What "information" there is in the W-S Journal article about his situation and condition seems to be based on hearsay -- the student wasn't interviewed (and the college rightly refused to violate his privacy rights, some of which are statutory) -- the story seems to be offering material that comes from one source, a source that herself also does not have confirmed details, and whose motives and agenda have only been alluded to in vague terms in the article itself.

[Jamie D]

I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We know that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

[aleon515]

Jamie, it's an interesting subject, we don't blame you for how poorly the article was written!

I think the situation changes with how far he is in his transition. It's called "transition", which means that it takes time and there are many levels to this. The article seemed to not to be quite accurate in how far he was in transition, describing  perhaps a post-transition individual.

I could right now no more live on campus with a bunch of men, use men's restrooms, etc. since I am not passing. There may be safety concerns.

Do I think a post-transition person should be staying at a women's university? I don't. But there are all sorts of steps to all this.



--Jay

[Arch]

Perhaps the question should not be "what should this student do?"--since we have very little actual information about him, and all is speculation--but "what is a fair policy at women's colleges?" At what point is it reasonable to ask a trans man to leave? And another question--at what point should a trans woman be welcome at a women's college?

Some would argue that since part of the mission of a women's college is to nurture people who have been raised as girls, with certain sexism-based social disadvantages, schools ought to be more accepting of trans men who are later in their transitions. I would tend to disagree, however, because this argument insufficiently addresses the concerns of the rest of the student body.

We also have some privacy concerns here. Is it reasonable or even legal for a college to use a person's medical history as a disqualifier, even if the school is relying on self-disclosure? What would such a school do with any individual (perhaps even an intersex person) who is very masculine in appearance but who was raised as a girl and is legally considered to be female? At what point does masculinity turn into maleness? I've met a few butch lesbians I thought were men at first. Would they be welcome at such a school, or are they too masculine?

[Elspeth]

I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We knows that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

I understand this, and I'm not faulting anyone for posting articles that may press some buttons. Only suggesting that critical reading is a good idea when reading any news article, especially when the motives for publishing it may not be entirely pure. It was telling that when I tried Googling for more background, some of the first places reposting this story uncritically were some of the usual radfem or radfem wannabe blogs.

I say this as someone who used to be a lot more sympathetic to a lot of radfem points of view -- I personally avoided even trying to enter many "womens spaces" mainly out of respect for some of the concerns that radfems raised. If you look at my everything2 essays, you'll find more than a few defending Andrea Dworkin (and John Stoltenberg)'s writings and provocations. My present POV is too complicated to describe in less than a very long essay... maybe I'll write that essay soon, but so much of it has to do with letting people make peace with themselves on their own timeline, that my POV is probably entirely irrelevant to that.

[Shana A]

I'm sorry if I'm perseverating on this, but I am dealing with many of these issues in connection with my son, who has a full scholarship waiting for him at a coed university, and who has been dealing with accomodation issues at the gap year program where he went, in part to deal with some of these issues before going on to college. It's not nearly as simple as some seem to think it is.

Thanks for bringing in your perspective as a parent! Clearly this isn't a black and white issue... as is the case for many things.

I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We knows that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

News Staff, or anyone else posting articles on the News Forum, aren't responsible for the quality of the content. I often link to articles from sources that are sensationalistic or twisting things to their advantage. I post them so that we can be aware of how we're being portrayed in the media.

I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Absolutely true!

Zythyra - News Admin

[Simon]

To me sounds like someone who actually want 100% sure they were a man and regrets it now.

I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

[aleon515]

I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

I've seen this too. Esp. people who have been active in lesbian issues or women's issues. (For me it was quite awhile ago). There is a sense of belonging that comes out of that. It's also an issue with SOs who are used to identifying as lesbian-- it's a belonging thing.

--Jay

[LilDevilOfPrada]

I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

I agree with this, far too many people under think transition, I mean most just think its fixing their bodies but the social links to this is a major factor of the process that some just dont think about.

Changing ones gender isnt simply their body apperance but rather everthing about you, in terms of society.

I think this guy completely didnt think of what he was doing if he was still hoping to be part of the womens only world stuff.