I'm going to want to post something longer when I've had some sleep, but with the Nor'easter coming on soon I want to do a quick reply on a couple of points now, just in case I lose power and/or lose track of this thread later on.
Quote from: Q on February 08, 2013, 05:40:24 AM
I remember her first telling me she had any issues, but due to how long ago it was, not exactly what she told me (part of a conversation not that long after I had tried to talk about my own problems where she was telling how it was ok to crossdress and how there were women who liked that kind of thing, that I could be gay if I wanted to, etc - cringe).
I could be completely off base here -- especially since I don't know what your age was for either of the conversations you've outlined -- but she may have been acting on bad (but fairly common, standard) advice from therapists. Or it could have been something else. You can't read minds, even if you imagine you can. (Took me a very long time to realize that... I used to have entire conversations with people, in my head, thinking that I knew what they would say, and therefore I could just have the conversation in my head. It's a very bad habit, and at some point, not necessarily soon, chances are something will come along to prove it.
Also, I have no sense of what the nature of her relationship is with your mom, and whether she might have chosen to keep things from you to avoid conflict there. She might also have been trying to avoid saying things for fear of "coaching you" or at least the fear that others might later interpret some version of your conversation as her feeding you ideas... there's a lot of bad advice out there, especially when it comes to how a trans parent is/was expected to cope with children, and it wouldn't surprise me, given our own common levels of internalized transphobia, if some of us wind up carrying the concealment we were advised to engage in, well into our children's adulthood.
I had a lot of clues that my son was trans from fairly early on. And yet, even when I was buying him binders and he was making it amply clear that he was trans, it took me quite a few months before I finally managed to have the open conversation I'd hoped to have some day, and I might have put it off even further if he hadn't come to the point of expressing his intentions to seek top surgery. Looking back, it's remarkable to me -- especially since in just about everything else we've had a very close and open relationship and have discussed all sorts of other meaty subjects -- but somehow (I don't suppose it's entirely surprising) when it came to revealing my own femme identity, I remained cagey for quite a bit longer than I'd really planned to. Some of it was just force of habit, some of it was fear of rejection for having concealed things for so long, even if I was doing so on pretty direct advice, and at least some potential for my integrity being used against me in, say, family courts . It's still possible (even close to certain) that he hasn't asked some questions he'd like to, even now.
My ex, however, is still much easier with him identifying as lesbian than she is when it comes to the trans identity. I've had a deep discussion with her, and confirmed that she
doesn't think I had an active hand in his reaching his present views and agenda. I'd imagine, it's at least one possibility, that his sending you the "its okay if you're gay" message could have been an attempt to avoid being seen as coaching you. Or it could just be that you haven't managed to be clear enough with him to avoid having this circuitous conversation?
QuoteThen, the second time she came out to me (I presume having forgotten she'd already come out to me once before)... where I was visiting back home and she tried to tell me she had spontaneously grown breasts due to a hormone imbalance, lol. It was completely obvious she had gotten breast implants. So I, thinking, 'okaaay... you aren't seriously thinking I'm going to believe that are you?', tentatively offered that I already knew she had been taking hormones and knew that your breasts don't grow that much due to hormones (being au fait with what hormones do it had been obvious to me quite a while earlier). At which point she proceeded to accuse me of being a coward for not saying I knew. (Which wasn't the case – I just felt I should leave it up to her to tell me when she felt ready) So, I didn't really push things and just decided to humour her.
Be careful about assuming you know what someone else is thinking. Her upset derailed the conversation, but "humouring" her also closed things off. It's very hard to have these conversations, and I think it's hard on both sides. I sensed my son shutting down at times (but maybe I was projecting that?) -- I'm not assuming our conversations are over, though. I know he doesn't know all I'd like to share, and I do keep trying to offer more as time goes by. But I also try to avoid making every conversation a heavy one about gender issues. He finally admitted (or I finally heard) for instance, that he doesn't really like "soap operas" -- I'd hoped to watch some parts of
The L Word with him as a way of opening up further conversation, since that series contained one clear transman, and a few others who may or may not have been transmen, but it's not a style he likes, and sometimes he would rather watch some sci-fi adventure, or a Hayao Miyazaki movie... there are things about trans history that he doesn't actually know already, for instance... there are a lot of conversations I'd like to have, but time and energy are not always in the right place for those.
It's not exactly the same situation, since I also kept to the advice I was given and avoided beginning transition (and at this point am not sure I'll have the means to go through it, unless something changes remarkably about my career and finances). But for us, there were times when I felt like my kids must have figured it out. At least when talking to me, though, they won't admit it... yes, they knew things, spotted things, but part of it (the heavy androgyny, for instance) was something that had been there from before they were born, so to them I was just me. There were a few times, though, especially when they were younger, and I was less sure that my ex would not decide to go to court or use my honesty against me, when I would hedge or offer what amounted to non-answers -- I would try not to lie outright, but I often told far less than the whole truth.
Obviously I don't know her situation, and she might not feel she can raise all of it without appearing to try to drive some wedge between you and your mom, so you might still not get the full story from her, unless, perhaps, you choose to press harder.
QuoteSecondly, there are some things I suppose I've just never expressed. Things you can't help but feel as the child when your parent has major surgery – you know, like – I'm not sure it has been better for you in terms of physical health to have done this and couldn't you have found another way to cope? Are you sure your mentally better off?... because it's not like the whole thing doesn't bring new problems and insecurities...
Has she had some specific transition-related medical problems? Do you know that she wouldn't have had something more serious had she not transitioned? We only live on one of the many possible paths we could have chosen. Especially for that last question, how is it even answerable, honestly?
QuoteThirdly, I suppose I've never really explained my own issues very well and part of me wants to say 'help, I'm struggling to know how to cope'.
This is really the only important question, in some ways, and one where she might be able to help, if not with certainties, at least with personal experience... even though you're her child, though, everyone does still have their own pathway.
QuoteAs regards the real why's and wherefores of her situation: I'm not sure if you're supposed to know your parents that well. It'd be nice to know, but it'd be a tough conversation to have. I don't think I feel comfortable asking and I doubt she'd feel comfortable telling me.
I'm oversimplifying a little, but to quite an extent it's a choice. Granted, some of it is based on your mutual histories, and some of it is up to her. But you control your own mouth, and you can ask questions. Maybe she won't answer them right away, or answer them fully. But persistence can pay off, eventually, given enough time and repetition. Chances are very good that she concealed herself for reasons of her own, ones that you may or may not have deduced correctly. You won't find out the actual answers unless you ask, and keep pressing, at least within decency's bounds, to assure yourself that you're not getting some kind of deflection.
QuoteThe questions in the second part: I don't know that there is any point asking them, because I doubt I'd get much of an answer and I doubt she'd want to talk about / answer them.
The third part, about my own issues, is where I can't write without sounding depressive. Essentially it would be pointless for me to discuss any of this with her at the moment, because (a) I know how that conversation would go without having it, and (b) it would bring more pressure and scrutiny onto me which I'd rather not have.
At risk of making myself sound pathetic... As a result of how many problems it was causing in my life – I basically said ok I can't deal with this, I'll just focus on work and doing other things that interest me – and that's how things have stayed for the last twenty years or so.
Fortune telling like this is in and of itself depressive. The truth is, you don't know what will happen, but chances are good that, with some persistence and the right setting, the conversation may go quite differently than you predict (or fear), especially if you can manage to be upfront on your part of it. It almost certainly won't be perfect, and you may want to consider whether you want to enter their own couple dynamics into it.
Personally, I'd want to have conversations with them separately. There may be many things they really haven't resolved between themselves, that could have very little to do with you, and everything to do with things you haven't been privy to. Especially considering how tangled up culture's deep misogyny is with transwomen in relationships with women, I wouldn't trust that any three-way conversation would have a great chance of being honest and open... too many potential issues. A novel I should write someday, but not right now.
I'm really fading, and beginning to lose focus, so I'll try to pick this up later, and pick apart any of the things I'll realize later on that I've mis-stated.
QuoteThat will sound crazy to a lot of people, but it's how things have gone for me. I can't even begin to fathom how people end up getting married when they have that issue. I assume they must have more drive for sex than I do and so get over it somehow.
Or a combination of imagination and a will to reframe things to suit themselves. In retrospect, I think for me it had mostly to do with my desire to be a full-time mom. I never got close to starting a relationship that could have led to marriage until I met someone who, in my view, was soft butch enough (while also being somewhat homophobic and in denial about that -- mind you, this was all my interpretation... my ex would tell a very different tale)... but for me, I managed to refocus, find ways of channeling things that were not too dysphoric... and at the worst tell myself something akin to "lie back and think of England" -- I was a little more active than that, but it definitely involved some mental gymnastics I've rarely heard expressed by other transwomen, yet in each of their stories, I can see how they also found various ways -- among other things, it's fairly rare for women to be all that sexually aggressive, and for many married transwomen, avoiding sex is not especially hard, and some wind up in relationships with women who are largely assexual for any number of reasons in their own histories.
My ex was actually fairly aggressive about sex, so for me it was not very hard to encourage her to be as active as she wanted to be, whenever she was prepared to initiate things. It did become somewhat more difficult over time, though, once I was more explicit and open with her about where my head was at... since she was not especially in love with the idea of thinking of herself as lesbian.
QuoteMy parents are like your son in that respect - no tolerance for hand wringing , lol.
Sorry I wasn't more specific about this. When I referred to this it wasn't to say that he wouldn't tolerate it in others. He just has no taste for it in himself, and he is much better at owning what he wants, once he's come to feel strongly that he knows what that is. I wish I were as resolute, but I recognize that it's not one of my traits. He's more like my ex, in that respect.
I went on pretty long, and I probably am not in a state to proofread this well. I'll come back to this again when I'm a little fresher.
