You may not be as cisgender as you think you are..

[Shawn Sunshine]

Consider for a moment that the latest studies show that 1 in 250 babies may be born with an intersex condition and that there are at least 25 known intersex conditions. You may or may not be as cisgender as you thought.

I also see transgender or being transsexual as a neurological version of an intersex condition to some degree myself. I also know from personal experience and meeting others that you can be intersex and transgender at the same time. Sometimes even you are forced into a situation where you need to transition simply because a doctor did surgery and assigned you the wrong sex, they don't always get it right with obvious intersex babies.

It is wise I think for one to discover if they are indeed intersex, some conditions will make it so it is harder or easier to transition. I have partial ais or maybe mild ais, so anti androgens may not be effective on me.

I think intersex people are overlooked by the rest of the lgbt community, if transgender is the step child of lgb, then intersex is the uncle who lived in the mountains for years and no one really knows about. Yet in reality many of us may be just that intersex and transgender.

However not every intersex person will be transgender or transsexual, it just depends on how they feel about themselves and thier body. But i find it interesting that there may be a person who considers themselves cisgender and straight and dislikes people that are lgbtqqi and yet they themselves may be intersex. Food for thought.

[spacial]

. I have partial ais or maybe mild ais, so anti androgens may not be effective on me.

Not exactly my sphere of experteese, but I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. Anti-androgens will be somewhat more effective since you metabolism would already be resistant to the effect of androgen.

But this is all just gossip and has no value in itself. These are matters for your own medical practitioner.

I also am not really sure if the point about the attention intersex people get is adequate, is really true either. Though I do understand it, especially in your case. The point is, here and for most of us generally, we approach our problems, whatever its causes or sources, by seeking to move toward varying degrees of transition.

Incidently, I absolutely know how you're feeling right now.  Big Huggggs

[Shawn Sunshine]

I was only trying to point out that hardly anyone that I know even is aware of what being intersex is. I asked one friend and they said "oh your a ->-bleeped-<-"

which is true ,yes, for me personally, but not the actual definition of being intersex. Also again I wanted to point out the fact that some people who think they are cisgender and are the so called "normal" people of society, may want to re-examine themselves.

I did not learn I was intersex until 7 months ago. I did not even know about how many conditions there were until a few months after that. Learning all these scientific things have helped me to broaden my mind.

I can imagine someone learning something about themselves, or accepting things about themselves and becoming quite the eye opener.

It is akin to that movie with Robert Duvall and James Earl Jones "A Family Thing"

Where the character learns he is half black and well things get interesting from there.

The moral story of my post is really this "Don't judge a book by its cover, the pages inside may be interesting and unique"

[spacial]

I fully understand Jamie. No negative judgement was intended.

These are valid points, but I wonder if causes are quite as significant as solutions?

[Cassandra Hyacinth]

The thing about intersex is that it's about as far from a black and white issue as one can really get.

In general, the only intersex conditions that people really think of when they hear 'intersex' are babies with 'ambiguous genitalia'. Many take this to mean genitalia somewhere between a penis and a vulva, but it's not so simple, and is often subject to the biases of society. Cases of micropenis have often seen the babies reassigned as female, with the micropenis becoming a clitoris. Conversely, cases of a considerably larger than normal clitoris but otherwise 'normal' genitalia has led to children having the clitoris amputated *shivers*.

But then there are other intersex conditions to consider, in particular the nature of chromosomes. A cis male can have XX chromosomes, and a cis female XY chromosomes, and they can go for decades without ever knowing! In general, those with the condition often only find out because of the infertility it causes.

And even then there are so many other conditions to think about, and where the line should even be drawn regarding what is 'intersex' and what is 'dyadic'. For instance, take a cis male who has normative genitalia and XY chromosomes, but a larger than normal amount of estrogen, leading to secondary sex characteristics which are traditionally considered 'female' - by medical standards, he wouldn't be considered intersex, even though his 'sex' is evidently different from what is 'expected' of cis males.

The simple truth of the matter is that nature doesn't cut and paste people into 'male' and 'female' categories as readily as most people presume. Rather, there is considerable variation, and it is the pressures of society that lead to the medical establishment assigning genders based on how the person's body looks.

Somewhat related personal side-note: when I researched intersex conditions a few months back, I saw some information on those assigned male who have two X chromosomes, and I thought that I had a lot of the symptoms. However, as it turned out, my mother had to have my chromosomes tested while she was pregnant with me (she was over 40, so they wanted to test for Down's syndrome) - turns out I have the standard XY. At the time I thought "Damn, that would have explained so much..."

[aleon515]

I've heard that when trans people get their chromosomes examined (which is not a common procedure at all) a lot of us do not have the normal XX or XY combos, but they aren't anything like XO or something else that would attract notice by being related to other stuff. Not sure if this is true. I think that this will ALL be found to be biological at some point or other and we are just not bright enough to know what all the situations may be. But of course, they could be in the brain and not the chromosomes or organs.

--Jay

[Shawn Sunshine]

I recently saw a XXY female (who was also mtf transsexual) who was on anderson cooper, she said she felt different her whole life and yet finding out the condition for her personally made her feel a sense of confirmation, because she simply wanted to know.

Of course there are also hormonal variations in addition to chromosomal ones:

here are the known conditions so far:

... Aphallia - A rare occurrence where a male is born without a penis or where a female is born without a clitoris. As of 2005, only 75 cases of aphallia have been documented.[7] It should not be confused with intentional or accidental amputation of the genitalia...

Diphallia (also known as penile duplication, diphallic terata, and diphallasparatus) - A condition where a male is born with two penises. It's extremely rare, with only 100 cases being recorded since 1609 and an occurrence rate of 1 in 5,500,000 in the United States. The penises may be side by side or one on top of the other, being of equal size or with one penis being distinctively larger than the other, and both penises may be suitable for urination and intercourse. Men with diphallia may be sterile...

Uterus didelphys (also known as double uterus) - A condition where a female is born with two uteri. It is often accompanied by two vaginas. It is generally not considered a health issue and women with uterus didelphys usually have normal sex lives and pregnancies.[12]

For the full list see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_development_disorder

But this page forgot another one which is :

XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome, for a researcher who characterized it in 1972[1]) is a rare sex chromosomal disorder. Usually it is caused by unequal crossing over between X and Y chromosomes during meiosis in the father, which results in the X chromosome containing the normally-male SRY gene. When this X combines with a normal X from the mother during fertilization, the result is an XX male.

This syndrome occurs in approximately four or five in 100,000 individuals, making it less common than Klinefelter syndrome.[2][3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xx_male


I also decided to bold the ones that were the most rare and different. But all of these are just the known ones.

[Shawn Sunshine]

I fully understand Jamie. No negative judgement was intended.

These are valid points, but I wonder if causes are quite as significant as solutions?

LOL WHEN DID MY NAME BECOME JAMIE? 

You must be sleepy my friend.... tee hee 

[spacial]

LOL WHEN DID MY NAME BECOME JAMIE? 

You must be sleepy my friend.... tee hee 

Sorry Dave.

As for genetics. I stay away from that nonsense.

OK I know we're all suppose to see it as some arithmetic final word for everything, but the reality is few really understand it.

We can say, for example, 'Oh look, this one has XX so they must be female'. Except we know that isn't necessarily the case.

Now other evidence demonstrates a clear mendelian link between genetics and personality, yet the XX doesn't lie! Or is it that we are just trying to play with a toy we don't really know anything about and are not entirely sure even exists?

I've seen too many variations in almost any aspect of life to think I will ever have enough understanding of genetics to be talking about individual strands of DNA in any meaninful sense.

We are what we are. Flawed Humans. We are endowed by our creator with with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That is the fundamental principal we must live by and insist upon for all people.

We need nothing else.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Ok then Jack, 

I don't think genetics is nonsense at all, nor is studying the brain and body for hormonal interactions.

However this brings up another thing, i personally also feel spiritually female more than i do male, for those of us who believe or are aware of ourselves I wonder how much of a factor this plays into someones overall sense of self.

[Natkat]

yeah theres alot of trans folks around of all kinds, and specially also the intersex. I have know a few intersex people but not many and its very ignored topic specially if your to convince some ignorant they complitely ignore it even exist and even so there all into force surgery on them. brbrbr..

it might sound wierd but I wish I would be intersex.
I already say my body is intersex, cause I feel my body biologically is a mix between E and T had made, but I dont think I got any intersex conditions as I used to get very strong and horrible periods back when I had it,
also im neither very hairy (this also a general fact in my famely that we arnt that hairy) or very maculine by look, more androgyne.

[aleon515]

Of course, cisgender is the wrong term. Refers to someone who is not trans. But I know what you mean. Not sure what the term is.

--Jay

[JLT1]

I read the first message in this topic and LOVE it.  I love the replies.

There are a number of intersex conditions and for some conditions, multiple causes.  Take AIS for example, it can be due to improper folding of the androgen receptor (actually one primary androgen receptor and a plethora of minor receptors) that leads a slightly different shape in the binding site which then leads to an inability or reduced ability of the specific androgen to bind.  There are at least five primary androgens, the metabolites of which are also active.  Figuring just 5 receptors and 5 androgens, all with equal binding propensity and that gives 3125 possibilities of an error.  Given the redundancy in the body, it's probably just over 20 but 20 is a big number when we are talking about determining our sex.   And that's only this one problem.  Science doesn't know all the answers or even all the right questions.  We know so very little. 

In the end, because of numbers of hormones and numbers of receptors, it is highly probable that there is a significant portion of the population that do not meet the conventional definition of man or woman, at least in part. If that part is the brain, well, here we are, cause unknown in many cases.....  If that part is a sex organ, well, here we are, exact cause sometimes known..... But we are both trying to get the mind and body to agree.

[spacial]

I don't think genetics is nonsense at all, nor is studying the brain and body for hormonal interactions.

With respect, the two are entirely different.

Hormonal interactions are well understood and can be predictable.

Studies of the brain really depend upon what you mean by the brain, but it's basic function is also quite welkl understood, can be studied and is reasonably predictable.

But genetics is mostly just guess work and babble.

For example. I see a rainbow in the correct way, as two colours, yellow and blue. Many others see it in that lesser way, with the seven colour nonsense.

Yet it has been suggested that the gene controlling what colours we see is located on the X chromazone.

So, is my ability to see the correct two colour rainbow a sexual thing-a-ma-jiggy?

An I suppose to get that high that so many claim to get from sex, simply by seeing the correct two colour arrangement?

And what of those unfortunates who see all those seven colours? Do they deserve a bit of equality here?

[Shawn Sunshine]

And what of those unfortunates who see all those seven colours? Do they deserve a bit of equality here?

You are very strange, It's hard for me to tell when your being sacrastic 

Besides everyone knows that rainbows are black and white

[Elspeth]

Sometimes even you are forced into a situation where you need to transition simply because a doctor did surgery and assigned you the wrong sex, they don't always get it right with obvious intersex babies.

From what I've read, this "wrong handling" is very common (and the rationale comes mainly from John Money, whose faulty research, prejudices and outright failures have been well-documented).

This is a part of the problem with looking at the "community" in very narrow terms -- those on the margins often get very little attention, and if someone is just beginning to become familiar with the various dialogues and controversies within the umbrella community, and those within its various factions and sub-communities, it can often turn disheartening. When I first started engaging with the trans community (mainly online, starting before the WWW existed, going back to stand-alone BBS days) there was already a lot of friction between some intersex individuals and others in the trans community, concerning allegations of "appropriation" and so on. Of course, a lot of the more recent research that suggests a neurological (and therefore organic, medical, and "real" basis for transgendered identities) was either in its infancy or hadn't been done yet. And of course it remains unconfirmed and not entirely accepted, largely because many people tend to ignore some of the historical evidence, that trans identities (or what drives them, creates them, in a sense) has always been present across just about all the cultures that have been studied or can be studies in retrospect.

The bias about genitalia is one that is (to me) largely a cultural artifact, and speaks to the effects of misogyny in our culture, a misogyny that if fueled in large part by some aspects of Christian dogma than continue to inform and affect culture, even for those who were never raised in a Christian sect or community.

[Elspeth]

One point that may be of interest or relevant to your situation and to others, Shaun, is that, despite the fact that the DSM has made it clear for many years now that practicioners should eliminate intersex conditions as a part of their differential diagnosis, I don't think that is really happening consistently at this point. I raised various concerns with my (non-MD) therapist about possible intersex factors in my history, and felt largely dismissed as I brought them up. I was also married to an MD, but one who had a strong vested interest in perceiving me as male for her own personal, psychological reasons, I suspect. So raising those same concerns with her was also dismissed. But it seems to me that, unless there are profound signs, an intersex diagnosis is often far harder to come by than it probably should be, if one were to read the standard texts and passages from common medical texts, such as Harrison's (what was the standard internal medicine text book, at least when my ex was in med school).

I just want to echo your main point here, that there are probably more undiagnosed intersex conditions than anyone imagines, in part because over time medical people have become aware that aside from those they couldn't help missing (those where external appearances and genitalia were clearly outside normal ranges of variation), there are a great many more subtle forms and cases, where there might be some signs, but cultural bias and other factors that stand behind the idea of gender as binary, are a great part of why those who have such conditions have tended to find themselves patronized, ignored and abused, both by people in everyday life and by those in the medical-psychological professions.

[spacial]

You are very strange, It's hard for me to tell when your being sacrastic 

Besides everyone knows that rainbows are black and white

The point is Shawn, I took what we are informed about the sex chromazone, added it to what we are told about apparent predominance of males with one of the several colour blind conditions, then described, quite accurately, one of those colour blind conditions. I then twisted the conclusions to create a social division.

there was already a lot of friction between some intersex individuals and others in the trans community, concerning allegations of "appropriation" and so on.

This sort of unacceptable consequence is what can be expected when we search for reasons for divisions.

The common denominator is an expectation that, those who choose to express their gender in manner that is varient from others in society are justified on the basis of the fundamental right of all humans to pursue happiness.

Once we seek or even tolerate, these sort of random, often questionable, frequently specious and generally unnecessary, explainations for an aspect of self expression we create reasons for some to have their basic right removed.

[Elspeth]

This sort of unacceptable consequence is what can be expected when we search for reasons for divisions.

Actually, I think it's in the nature of human nature, more than anything.  Particularly for those who identified as intersex only at the time, their particular issues were very different in many respects, from issues that had prominence among the transgendered, and they definitely had a point, in terms of wanting to be sure that their own issues were being heard more clearly, since for many intersex individual, there greatest concern was in being coerced into a role without consent, yet in different ways. For some, they had no particular desire in hiding their identity or melding in with one gender or another... some wanted visibility as neither one gender or the other. I don't think there has ever been universal agreement there, in part because there are too many different types of intersex conditions for there to ever be a consensus position that would serve everyone.

One of the more interesting aspects, though, going back to John Money's early claims of "success" seems to be at this point the growing acceptance among at least some part of the medical profession that assigning gender to the intersexed individual should not be done until the individual has a voice and freely expresses some preference.  Frankly, I think such a principle, if it were widely accepted for everyone, regardless of presumptions about whether someone is intersexed or not, would possibly do wonders for many of us, or at least for those of us yet to be born.

Sidebar on trans and intersex community history:  Sometimes it could easily come across that some transgendered individuals wanted to identify as intersex in part because a biological explanation would eliminate the questions of choice and volition that often tended to be raised by those antagonistic towards transgendered folk, often coming from people in the gay and lesbian communities, who interpreted transgendered identities as somehow an act of passing judgment on, or reflecting badly on them, especially back in the era when some in the GL parts of the community tended to take the line that "Everyone would treat US better if it weren't for the freaks, drag queens, ->-bleeped-<-s, radical faeries, stone butches, yaddayaddayadda.

[spacial]

Particularly for those who identified as intersex only at the time, their particular issues were very different in many respects, from issues that had prominence among the transgendered, and they definitely had a point, in terms of wanting to be sure that their own issues were being heard more clearly, since for many intersex individual, there greatest concern was in being coerced into a role without consent, yet in different ways.

............ that assigning gender to the intersexed individual should not be done until the individual has a voice and freely expresses some preference. 

You see, these two points are the issue?

You highlight a sub group who present with a problem concerning their physicality as being distinct from those whose problems are their attitude with an otherwise healthy body. But that division is, with respect, arbitrary, though I can fully appreciate that those affected might see otherwise.

That some born with physically identifiable problems may see themselves as more deserving or different from those whose problems are less identifiable is irrelevant. The problem is the same. The triage should be based upon immediate need, not a value judgement, to separate the neurotic vanity from the unfortunates.

Or we could simply say that god doesn't make mistakes and leave all of them accept their assigned genders with stoical gratitude.

The second point is exactly it. That an issue such as assigned gender for example, is a matter for the individual. People don't complain about somehting as innate as their apparent gender without good reason. Granted, some complain of many strange things and attaching themselves to transgender is no different. But they still have a serious problem and are equally deserving our our support.