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Am I crazy?

Started by kimboto_1, March 07, 2013, 09:29:19 PM

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kimboto_1

Okay, so a couple of days before Christmas last year, my husband of 7 years told me he thinks he knows why he is depressed: He's transgender. At first, I was okay with him making the transition, but I let him know I am not attracted to girls. Then he gets mad because if I truly love him for the person he is on the inside, then why can't I love him if he becomes a woman? I have been wrestling with this. I decided that I would try to make it work. He's cross-dressed, pierced his ears, wore nail polish, got his eyebrows waxed, and is growing his hair out. None of this really bothers me too much, it just took some time to get used to it. However, sex has become a problem. He doesn't like to use his penis because it makes him feel bad because it's just another reminder that he is not a woman. So, we've been using toys. I have been trying and trying to like it, but I don't. I like penis. I was honest with him and then he tells me that I need to change my perspective and everything will be okay. So, I am just supposed to say "oh, so I DO like sex toys and not penis" and everything will be okay? The entire conversation seemed to be him bullying me into trying and trying and trying to make things 'work'. A person cannot help what they like and don't like, right? Am I being selfish? He has also said that if I wasn't comfortable with his transition, that I could pull the plug, but he would be angry if I pulled the plug without trying and exhausting all options. But again, I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like. He also said that he took his vows seriously and that he could just change his perspective and just be happy. It feels like he is taking all the emotion out of everything, and is just looking at everything so dang logically. I just don't feel that intimacy with him when we only use sex toys. He gets an emotional thing from it, but I don't get any physical or emotional feeling from it. I am just wondering if I am crazy or what. Sorry if this is all poorly organized and whatnot, I am just an emotional wreck right now...

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Button

No Hun, you are so not crazy. My situation is different since I was bi to begin with and also Andi told me before we entered into a relationship so I sympathize with you.

If you feel bullied, then this situation is not right. Open communication is key and another option is an open relationship for your benefit and if that's what you like you need to put it out there.

This is just my opinion mind you but I've always thought its not supposed to be a one way street and both parties in any relationship have to be happy with things.

So ask for compromise or leave or stay but do all of this on your terms else you might end up resenting your partner and then no one wins.

You are not trapped and have options but you need to try and communicate that hey I'm not happy with this and want this. So have a think and work out what you want, only you truly know you.

Button
My love for my Andi is eternal don't try to tell me otherwise.
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kimboto_1

Thank you.

I told him that I don't feel intimate with him when we use sex toys and all he kept saying was 'why? have you tried taking a different perspective?'. It just doesn't make any sense. You cannot force yourself to be happy with a situation and I don't want either of us to compromise to the point that neither of us are happy. And to make matters worse, we have two children under the age of 5. He doesn't want to break up the family because he knows what it's like to be from a broken home. But even if we divorced, that doesn't mean he will be cut out of the kids' lives. I could never do that unless he was a danger to them. We may start with counseling and go from there, but I feel as though he has backed me into a corner. He is essentially telling me I am a defeatist if I divorce him because he is transgender. I did not marry him knowing that he was transgender. He did not tell me until about 3+ months ago. I have been trying and it's just not working for me.

He has also put me in an awkward position. He says he'll stop if it makes me uncomfortable and I can't handle it (which I think will make him unhappy because he's not being true to who he his and this will make everyone else unhappy) and if we continue despite my being not okay with this, then I'll be unhappy, which will make everyone else unhappy. He said if he didn't transition, then he would just change his perspective. For example, it will be less stress and we could save more money if he didn't transition. I think someone who is truly transgender couldn't just suppress these feelings and live a happy life.

This is all just so crazy...
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Button

Kids aren't a reason to stay together and believe me they will know if there is a division to your relationship.

Councling is a good option both myself and Andi have our own sounding boards not about our relationship cause we are kinda lucky there but with anything else in your lives.

Life seems crazy because you have been thrown a curve ball and bang its all happening really fast and it seems its out of your control however its really not.

You didn't sign up for this. You have been honest with your feelings and your sexuality and since I'm not trans myself I can only impart my experiences from being on the other side.

You know yourself and maybe you can get the clearer picture you need thru a counsellor. Life is to short to not be happy and if your current partner was to decide to reverse their decision on transition then it would have to be something that would have to be good for both of you.

I'm always surprised when someone is in a relationship for so long and then they decide to tell their partner and then expect them to just say ok. I think the best you could do is try and you did and you don't like women so there's really only one way to go from there.

If you want someone to vent to this community is great and everyone is in the same boat in one way or another.

Button

My love for my Andi is eternal don't try to tell me otherwise.
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blueconstancy

I don't think you're crazy, and I think he's being unreasonable. It IS sometimes possible to "change your perspective"... but it's not flipping a switch. It takes tons of commitment and effort and often therapy, and there's no way he* can expect you to do it all on your own practically overnight. I also agree with Button about time, therapy, and not being too hard on yourself!

And, yeah, sometimes people are just hardwired to like a particular gender or type of sex, and it's not something you can fix. I assume he wouldn't tell someone who's gay that they should be able to logically argue themselves out of it (well, I hope not!), and the same is true for people who are straight.

To be perfectly honest, I'm bi and I supported my wife 100% in getting GRS, but it's *still* true that there is no good substitute for an organic penis. If my sexual satisfaction were dependent on that, I'd be done. So I totally think you have a right to feel the way you do, and to be upset that he keeps pushing.

She may think right now that she could give up on transition, but I suspect if she tried she'd find it's as hard as expecting you to rewrite your own wiring...


*note to everyone else reading : yes, pronouns are a minefield, and I'm taking her at her word about her spouse's choice at the moment. (I remember a period when seeing "she" used before either of us were ready hurt me acutely, so I'm gonna err on the side of being sympathetic to the person writing this, if I can't otherwise determine.)
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kimboto_1

He asked me the other day if I still loved him and I said yes, but I wasn't sure if I still loved him as a husband or just a friend. Then last night he says that he feels like he is losing me and doesn't want that so he is not going to be transgender anymore. He said he was devastated, but that he'll just have to find a new perspective on life and will eventually be okay with the situation. Doesn't that seem weird to anyone else? I just feel like he is so afraid of losing me that he's going to hide his true feelings. That is the last thing I want. It would be awesome if I could be okay with his transition, but I'm not. I think he deserves to be happy with himself, but he seems to think that he can only be happy if he is with me. I still want to go to therapy to make sense of all of this, but he wants to save the time and money.
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JoanneB

You are being bullied, plain and simple.

Look at it this way. When she came out to you at Christmas time (first off, bad time of year for dropping that bomb, my perspective) You could have quickly turned to her said "You don't have the right perspective. It's the human condition to think the grass is always greener... Or you are just running away from your problems and responsibilites as a man. Etc. etc..

Now another perspective. Being trans is very likely not new news to her. She had whatever number of years or decades to grapple with it. How fair is it to expect you to instantly adapt in barely 2 months to a complete change of lifestyle, a complete redefinition of your marriage, the realization and sense of betrayal that the person you married was not that person at all, the very likel social stigma and allienation of friends and family?; and the list goes on.

I know it is far harder on a spouse for these reasons. Even if the spouse always knew to some extent that their partner is TG. My best friend, soul mate, and now wife and I have a 30+ year history. She knew from day one that I was TG, that I experimented at transitioning, been on/off HRT, but importantly, she knew and I affirmed that I decided to fake normal.

She is/was very understanding and supportive of the TG aspect of me. I had the luxury of escape from the male world, to cross-dress occassionally when needed. This was difficult for her as for days afterwards all she could see was Joanne (and believe me that takes a lot of imagination as the change is dramatic in my case).

Four years ago the excrement really hit the fan for me. A lot of soul searching led to the conclusion that many of the disasters in my life had a root-cause of me being trans. I needed to take on the beast. I needed to change a lot of my ultimately self-destructive behaviours that came as a result of all the TG baggage.

I had absolutely no intentions to transition. Been there, tried that. Besides, I made a promise to her, to us, we have a lot of shared dreams for our future, I have financial responsibilites. Even if I wanted to, it would be disasterous and not end well for either of us and as a couple.

A lot has changed over these past 4 years. I found a great TG group and got into therapy. Due to work I needed to move out of state and we needed to maintain a long distance marriage. She had big concerns over the TG group when she learned that pretty much all of them were TS, most full-time, others working towards it. "If you hang out with swans you may start thinking you are one" she said. Plus a big jealousy factor, one member, is a knockout and also an engineer like I am. I also have a history of having dated TSs prior to her. Over time, things changed. Presenting for the monthly meeting led to also presenting to see the therapist, which eventually led to living part-time as female.

We both place the others happiness above our own. We both know you cannot change another person. I know what a strain this is for my wife. She knows how much I've grown and changed as a person these past few years. Something she always tried to help me achieve. If she asked or said that she needed me to stop, I would. I've gone through some guilty periods and tried to anyway, pure misery. But if she needed me to, I know I could.

Understanding and supportive is relative. This part-time transition has been difficult for my wife to process. And she is about as close to an expert in matters relating to being a TS that you can find. We've had our up's and down's as well as plenty of tears shed on both sides. Our relationship is now stronger than ever. Still, our ultimate future is unknown between what I need to do to be happy and what she needs to do in response to that. She says still "I like men. I didn't marry a woman. If I wanted that I had my chance to". Also there isn't another person she'd rather grow old with and knock off our rocking chairs on the porch  :D

BTW - The 25 anniversary of her SRS was New Years Eve

Yep, it is not easy on a spouse, even one that is an expert on the subject. Something your husband seemed to be foresaking with the rushing and pushing. Now guilt has set in. The only hitch to her plan is that IT NEVER GOES AWAY. You can find tricks like diversions, distractions and denial to minimize the feelings. Worked for me for a good 40 years. I wouldn't recommend it due to the cost to your humanity and spirit.
.          (Pile Driver)  
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                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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kimboto_1

When we talked last night, I said that one of my biggest fears was that years from now he would say that he can't pretend anymore and that he needs to transition. He said it was a legitimate fear, which has me worried. I don't want to waste his time or my time being unhappy. Life is too short for that. I want each of us to be happy, but not at the expense of the other person's happiness. If he wanted to transition, I would support him as much as I could. I still want to be friends, too. I don't want to lose him as a friend. It's just been so weird that past week. He seems desperate to the point he is kinda scary (I'm not scared he is going to hurt me. He has never touched me like that.) Scary in a way that I feel I have no good choice in this. And this isn't the first time something like this has happened. He tried to bully me into giving up our youngest daughter for adoption because he said we couldn't afford it and we just couldn't handle it. I didn't want to split up our family. So, I left him for a bit because he just wouldn't stop bullying me. Then we got back together and yes, it's been hard, but we're finally getting things together and I am so happy that we kept her. This last week has just really reminded me of that time, and I hate it. I want to believe him when he says he'll be fine with being a man, but most people who are trans don't seem to be truly happy until they can be true to themselves, right?
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JoanneB

Just curious...

Is he seeing a therapist, preferably a gender therapist (which are hard to come by outside of major metro areas)?

Is he in any sort of TG support group or groups? They all have different personalities and serve different needs across the TG spectrum.

One thing I know from personal experience, as well as being constantly reminded of by my TG group members, that in essence, there is no magic formula for happiness. Transitioning is a very long and difficult process. Made all the more difficult and expensive by what your ultimate objectives are.

I found contentment for years by simply being able to cross-dress. It might have been a good option, even today, if I didn't stop it. Too many more important things needing to get done. Part of the TG guilt baggage. For over 2 years now I've been happy to joyous living part time as a woman. Achieved my life long dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman. I can, and have several times now, freaked myself out with the great question of "Now what?"

If it's workin, what's there to fix? I got my cake, got to eat it, and didn't gain 5 lbs in the process. I achieved my dream, found joy and happiness, have a tighter relaionship with my wife, still have a job, and don't have to risk loosing the few things I still hold precious in my life. Why change anything?

There is a broad spectrum between cis male and a fully transitioned MTF. An entire universe of happiness options can be found between the two extremes. One needs to be open minded, explore, experiment, and not take blind leaps of faith across the great crevasse to fully transitioning. Without a good TG support group or network, and perhaps a therapist, it is a very dangerous leap to make on your own.
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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brainiac

#9
Kimboto, I just want to let you know that it's okay to stand up for yourself and your needs in the relationship. A lot of trans people get really self-centered around the beginning of their transition due to the massive amount of introspection we're going through. Of course, not everyone is like this, but I definitely was, and I've heard others echo the same sentiment. I didn't realize it at the time, but it really hurt my partner very badly. Trans people have a right to be treated the way we want to be treated, but that doesn't give us the right to override or ignore our partners' needs.

My partner also expressed the same feelings as you-- it was really scary to feel like I was completely in control of where the relationship was going, and he felt forced to stick with me because he thought it would make him transphobic or a bad partner if he broke up with me even if we were incompatible. That desperation and uncertainty is really scary for both of you.

And, if you are straight, you are straight. You have nothing to be ashamed of for that. Sexual orientation is not something you choose, as we all know, and that goes for heterosexuals too! And just because you love a person for who they are, that doesn't mean that on a physical level you will still be attracted to them if there are major changes like to sex characteristics. And that is NOT something you can control or something that you should be berated for. When you enter into a marriage with someone, the expectation is that they will continue to be compatible with you in the relationship. If something major changes and you feel that it's no longer compatible--for example, transitioning to an extent that you are no longer physically attracted--then it's completely fair to reassess the relationship. You're already proving that you love your husband by sticking with him and talking openly with him.

I also just wanted to let you know that there is a middle ground, though it may not be the right one for your husband. I was born female, and I identify as male. But I'm mostly happy with my body the way that it is (I found ways around the body dysphoria I've experienced, which is what your husband is describing when he talks about the discomfort with his penis), and I'm happy dressing like a boy sometimes and like a girl sometimes. My boyfriend is mostly straight--on a core level, he is attracted to female bodies--so this actually works for us. I'd encourage your husband to look at something like this image (however cutesy and silly it is) and try to figure out where he would put himself in an ideal world.

But remember this: you can be supportive, you can be loving, but neither of those things requires you to let yourself be bullied or forced to stay in a relationship where you aren't happy. You're also not his therapist or his punching bag, and he should be seeing a gender therapist for sure. I'd also recommend that you go to a therapist and talk about this, because it can be really hard to deal with all these feelings alone, especially when your partner is feeling really vulnerable and is emotionally volatile. (You may also want to read "She's Not The Man I Married" by Helen Boyd. I think it'll help you feel less alone.)

(Note that I'm using 'he' because your partner seems unclear about exactly where he identifies on the gender spectrum. I'll change it if it makes sense.)
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blueconstancy

I have to admit, putting this as gently as I possibly can, and taking into account that I'm a total stranger on the Internet who only knows the story of you've chosen to tell here... it sounds as if you are being pressured, manipulated, and gaslighted. Honestly, pushing you to give up your daughter is a red flag that has nothing to do with transition. So is the fact that he pushed you until your back was to the wall that you actually did walk out, and then he came around and found a way to compromise. Both that and telling you that his happiness is totally dependent on your choices, makes it sound like you have all of the power the relationship while he is simultaneously undermining and manipulating you. I think, perfectly frankly, that if you want this relationship to work you probably should go into therapy together regardless of transition.

Aside from all of that, the simplest thing I can say is that you are absolutely NOT responsible for his choices or his life. Whether you choose to adapt to the idea of transition or not, your partner will have to make their own choices. The fundamental problem here seems to be an issue with communication - he seems unwilling to give you honest and clear explanations of what's going on, and is trying to impose a serious guilt trip instead. In any case, I will reiterate what I think I said earlier, that it is very early on in the process and it is far too soon for him to expect you to be okay with all of this. Calling everything off and trying to blame his inability to transition on you because you aren't fine with it right off the bat is unfair and unreasonable.

What brainiac says about being self-centered earlier transition is very true, based on what I have observed. I also wholly second the idea that it is fine to stand up for yourself and your own needs, and again, in my observation of a number of couples and marriages who went through transition, the ones who were most successful were ones where the transitioning partner made an effort to see past the temptation to be self-centered and to accommodate their loved ones. That doesn't necessarily mean that they put the loved one's interests first, or even that they were not sometimes self-centered, but that they acknowledged that it was going on, it was hurtful, and they would like to get past that phase as soon as possible. unfortunately, the marriages that were the least successful seem to be the ones which already had pre-existing fault lines before transition even entered the scene. Only you can decide whether a situation like being bullied about relinquishing your daughter qualifies... but it is worth asking yourself the question, even though you're absolutely not required to share the answer with the rest of us, whether you have made enough sacrifices for this person and it's time to consider putting your own happiness first.

*hugs* and good luck.
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kimboto_1

Thank you all so much for your support and advice. Unfortunately, he has not been to therapy (he wanted to wait for his insurance to kick in) and now does not want to since he has put this whole thing to rest. I would like to see a therapist, but he says since the transgender thing isn't an issue, it's a waste of time and money. *sigh*
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Button

Not cool mate, if you want to go to therapy you need to go and if he doesn't want to go that's kinda strange considering the things he was dealing with.

But I agree with Blue and the red flags are showing for mine. It's just another controlling thing to not allow you to see a therapist and unfortunately this shouldn't just be swept under the carpet.

Just my two cents but I wish you all the best with finding your happiness.

Hugs!!! Button
My love for my Andi is eternal don't try to tell me otherwise.
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JoanneB

Quote from: kimboto_1 on March 10, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Thank you all so much for your support and advice. Unfortunately, he has not been to therapy (he wanted to wait for his insurance to kick in) and now does not want to since he has put this whole thing to rest. I would like to see a therapist, but he says since the transgender thing isn't an issue, it's a waste of time and money. *sigh*
Yet more emotional bullying and manipulation  >:(
.          (Pile Driver)  
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(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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brainiac

Quote from: JoanneB on March 10, 2013, 09:44:20 PM
Yet more emotional bullying and manipulation  >:(
Yeah, I really have to agree with this. It's not okay for him to say that you don't get to go to therapy even if you feel like you need it. This controlling behavior is really worrying and it isn't okay for him to treat you like this. Going to therapy for just that, regardless of any gender issues, would be totally valid.

Also, he really should be in therapy, even if he considers this "put to rest". From what you've described, he's experiencing gender dysphoria, and that should be addressed even if he doesn't intend to transition and wants to "stay male". From what you've described, he likely is somewhere under the "transgender umbrella", and if he tries to ignore those feelings and pretend he is something he isn't, it's really going to hurt him... and you. The way that I'd sell therapy to him is that a therapist is not necessarily going to try to "fix" his problems, but rather they can help him explore his feelings so that he can figure out the best way forward for him.

It sounds like you have a lot on your hands here. Good luck and more internet hugs from me!
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kimboto_1

Thanks braniac, I think I'll try that approach. I think it would be reasonable enough for him to go to therapy to at least talk about how he feels regarding his gender dysphoria. I think maybe seeing a therapist could help him figure out what he truly wants and see if there is a compromise.

I did ask him if he still wanted to cross dress and he said no, that it would be too hard for him. He doesn't want to be an 'in-between'. He either wants to be male or female. He said I should throw out his female clothes and whatnot because it would be too hard for him.
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blueconstancy

That is... unfortunate and unhelpful. I also agree with everyone else that suggesting that YOU can't go into therapy is controlling and worrisome (and unreasonable). Even if you cannot drag him - which is problematic when the biggest issues here are about the marriage, and not you personally - you might benefit from someone with the expertise and clarity of thought to help you cope with his behavior.
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kimboto_1

Today we were talking about random stuff, and then he said something about me being straight, and then he said 'Well, genetically I'm straight. I still feel like a girl." Then I tried talking to him about therapy again, but he still refuses. When I mentioned maybe going to therapy to talk about his gender dysphoria, he said 'Why? What good would it do? What do you expect as an outcome?'. At this point I have no idea what to do. We can't go on like this. It just feels awkward, like we are just pretending. Any suggestions?
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JoanneB

After a good 30 years of working really really hard at it, I can quarantee you that the feelings never go away. This is pretty much a given fact by all gender specialist. Denial doesn't work. Purging (tossing out the clothes) does not work. Taking the beast head on does. The real trick there is that transition is not necessarily the end-game.

If you don't know where you sit on the spectrum between cis and TS, you'll find a way to have happiness and joy in your life. Only a life a "If maybe's.., I should of...." or one that totally sucks. Therapy can help.
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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kimboto_1

I just wish he would go to therapy. He should talk to a professional, someone to help him sort everything out. He's just so adamant about him not going and he doesn't want me to go because there is 'nothing to talk about'.
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