Social Pressures for Males vs. Females

[Contravene]

Since many of us have had to deal with society from the perspective of both genders at some point in our lives, I wondered what your experiences have been like with this subject. Do you think females experience more social pressure than males or is it the other way around? Or maybe the pressures are about equal?

I'm a male who was born biologically female. Throughout most of my life, I've had to deal with unaccepting family members and friends so until a few years ago, I've allowed people to simply view me as what my body falsely portrayed me as: a female. This means that I've experienced all of the social pressures that cis-females experience. For me, those pressures were intense and unbearable. I've found that the pressure to do things like keep up the latest feminine trends has been very difficult for me. Also trying to interact as a woman with women has been nearly impossible for me due to all of the social rules and expectations that come with being perceived as female.

Once I started being viewed as a male, I discovered that there were still many social pressures but I could deal with them much more easily because having male expectations of me seemed to fit my personality better.

So, is it true that social pressures are greater for women or do I just feel this way because it's difficult for a male to fit into female social pressures?

[Nero]

I think they're not necessarily greater for either. Just different. Though expression wise, there's much greater pressure on men. I mean we're basically not supposed to express ourselves. No emotion, nothing. It's much more taboo to have non stereotypically male interests than the reverse for women. That sort of thing. Even something as trivial and stupid as highlighting my hair invites comment.

[FTMDiaries]

In my experience and in the society I live in, men are treated as private people; women are treated as public property.

The public (and particularly the media) tends to let men get on with their own lives with a minimum of interference. But every decision made by a woman is subjected to public scrutiny and criticism.

For example: If a man wants to get an education in a respectable field such as engineering, nobody bats an eyelid. If he wants to work an 80-hour week, he's a hard-working, dependable husband providing for his family. If he goes grey, he looks distinguished. If he wants to dress for comfort, he's just a bloke wearing what he wants; why would anyone ever even think of passing an opinion? He's treated as an adult who is sufficiently competent to make his own decisions. Granted, he can be judged or criticised if he makes decisions that are considered harmful, but most of his life choices are supported by society by default.

Conversely, women are treated as public property. The public thinks it has a right to an opinion on what a woman chooses to do with her life. If she wants an education, well that's fine but if she chooses a traditionally male field such as engineering she will face a lifelong struggle to prove herself, simply because she's female. If she wants to work an 80-hour week, why is the selfish cow neglecting her husband, her kids and her housework? If she goes grey, she's a washed-out old hag who isn't trying hard enough to take care of her appearance. If she dresses for her comfort, she's a slut who deserves to be attacked in the street for wearing revealing clothes; or if she prefers less revealing clothes, she's 'frigid' or 'a lesbian'. She is treated as someone who is not only incompetent to make her own decisions, but she is heavily pressured to conform to society's expectations of what a 'wife and mother' should be. And if she doesn't, she fails as a woman in the eyes of society.

There are, of course, exceptions to these rules. But this is the general, default position in my society.

And yes, I found it incredibly difficult to be subjected to societal condescension and paternalism when I was presenting as female. It was so insulting and humiliating for me, particularly because I've never felt female and it made my dysphoria much worse to see that I was being treated like a small child when my cismale friends were being treated like adults.

Heck, yesterday I went to the barber, who also happens to cut women's hair a couple of days a week to keep the money coming in. Whilst the barber was being very professional & respectful towards me, there was a woman having her hair cut by another barber at the same time. At the end of her haircut, he offered her a lollypop because she'd managed to not cry about having her hair cut a bit shorter. A lollypop! For a grown woman! Sheesh.

[Contravene]

 Not-so Fat Admin,

I agree that the pressures are still there just in different forms. I think a lot of society's expectations and norms also depend on culture. For example, I've seen a lot of guys be criticized for something like highlighting their hair but I'm a graphic designer and artist so in the culture that surrounds the art world I've noticed that people are much more open and lenient about things like a guy highlighting his hair.


FTMDiaries,

I think that's a great point about mens' lives seeming more private whereas womens' seem more public. I'm a pretty private person so this is probably also why I can more easily accept the male social pressure to remain private, not display emotions and other things along those lines. I know exactly what you mean about being subjected to society's condescending attitude towards women too. When I present as a woman, I feel as if I'm constantly having to prove myself when I shouldn't have to. Then the few times that I do manage to prove myself, I'm still not taken seriously because I'm viewed as a woman in a man's world. I talked to my girlfriend about something like this recently and asked how she deals with things like this. She told me that it's still a struggle sometimes but she's proud of her gender and can identify as being a woman so she doesn't feel the need to have to prove herself as often because she's already confident and secure in her gender where as I, a man in a woman's body, am not.


Sammy,

I think both genders have their privileges. Those privileges like the social pressures are just different so it depends on which you identify with more. Females are allowed to express themselves more freely and open up about their emotions which men might consider a privilege granted by society because of how closed and unemotional society forces males to be.

[FTMDiaries]

So.... Someone must be really crazy or absolutely desperate in terms of dysphoria when aspiring to transition into female after having "enjoyed" the "privileges" of male life.

If you believe that, you've come to the wrong place and you're talking to the wrong person. This thread is about our experiences of societal pressures and the contrast between what we've experienced when presenting as male and as female. Let's try not to get derailed.

It's more of a suitability of expectation. People prefer to be treated in a way that they consider appropriate to them; the Platinum Rule of 'Do Unto Others As They Wish To Have Done Unto Them'. For someone who's male-identified, it can be inappropriate to be treated like a stereotypical female, as defined by society. For someone who's female-identified, it can be inappropriate to be treated like a stereotypical male. The fact that many societies have a huge contrast between what is expected of males and females is the root cause of a lot of the societal pressure faced by trans people in particular.

My reply was about the contrast I've seen and experienced between the way men and women are treated and perceived in British society. If your experience differs, or if you disagree with my assertion that women are objectified by the media and society whilst men are generally not, I'm always open to new evidence.

Both genders have privileges as well as handicaps and I doubt many of us are transitioning for the 'privileges' enjoyed by our target gender. The only privilege I want is the privilege of feeling comfortable within my own skin... and if that includes not being treated like a toddler by random strangers and not being offered lollypops when I want my hair cut, then that's just fine with me.

[FTMDiaries]

I think that's a great point about mens' lives seeming more private whereas womens' seem more public. I'm a pretty private person so this is probably also why I can more easily accept the male social pressure to remain private, not display emotions and other things along those lines. I know exactly what you mean about being subjected to society's condescending attitude towards women too. When I present as a woman, I feel as if I'm constantly having to prove myself when I shouldn't have to. Then the few times that I do manage to prove myself, I'm still not taken seriously because I'm viewed as a woman in a man's world. I talked to my girlfriend about something like this recently and asked how she deals with things like this. She told me that it's still a struggle sometimes but she's proud of her gender and can identify as being a woman so she doesn't feel the need to have to prove herself as often because she's already confident and secure in her gender where as I, a man in a woman's body, am not.

Good thread, by the way. It's an interesting topic to consider.

Your girlfriend's perspective is interesting, and I'm sure she's not alone in her experiences. It sounds to me like her satisfaction with her gender means that she accepts the perceived downsides of her societal role so that she can be true to herself. Hey... isn't that what we're all saying here too - that both gender roles have their upsides & downsides? The only difference is that we need to make adjustments to our lives so we can feel the same relative satisfaction.

[Nero]

In my experience and in the society I live in, men are treated as private people; women are treated as public property.

The public (and particularly the media) tends to let men get on with their own lives with a minimum of interference. But every decision made by a woman is subjected to public scrutiny and criticism.

For example: If a man wants to get an education in a respectable field such as engineering, nobody bats an eyelid. If he wants to work an 80-hour week, he's a hard-working, dependable husband providing for his family. If he goes grey, he looks distinguished. If he wants to dress for comfort, he's just a bloke wearing what he wants; why would anyone ever even think of passing an opinion? He's treated as an adult who is sufficiently competent to make his own decisions. Granted, he can be judged or criticised if he makes decisions that are considered harmful, but most of his life choices are supported by society by default.

Conversely, women are treated as public property. The public thinks it has a right to an opinion on what a woman chooses to do with her life. If she wants an education, well that's fine but if she chooses a traditionally male field such as engineering she will face a lifelong struggle to prove herself, simply because she's female. If she wants to work an 80-hour week, why is the selfish cow neglecting her husband, her kids and her housework? If she goes grey, she's a washed-out old hag who isn't trying hard enough to take care of her appearance. If she dresses for her comfort, she's a slut who deserves to be attacked in the street for wearing revealing clothes; or if she prefers less revealing clothes, she's 'frigid' or 'a lesbian'. She is treated as someone who is not only incompetent to make her own decisions, but she is heavily pressured to conform to society's expectations of what a 'wife and mother' should be. And if she doesn't, she fails as a woman in the eyes of society.

There are, of course, exceptions to these rules. But this is the general, default position in my society.

And yes, I found it incredibly difficult to be subjected to societal condescension and paternalism when I was presenting as female. It was so insulting and humiliating for me, particularly because I've never felt female and it made my dysphoria much worse to see that I was being treated like a small child when my cismale friends were being treated like adults.

Heck, yesterday I went to the barber, who also happens to cut women's hair a couple of days a week to keep the money coming in. Whilst the barber was being very professional & respectful towards me, there was a woman having her hair cut by another barber at the same time. At the end of her haircut, he offered her a lollypop because she'd managed to not cry about having her hair cut a bit shorter. A lollypop! For a grown woman! Sheesh.

It's generally like this in the US too (don't know about the lollipops though. that's crazy!). It's especially apparent with female politicians and celebs, anyone in the public eye. I mean we had extensive coverage on Hillary Clinton's haircut for godsake! She's not a model or actress, her looks should be irrevalent but they're not because she's a woman.
I think this quote by Ambrose Pierce? basically sums up the world's attitude toward women:

To men a man is but a mind. Who cares
    What face he carries or what form he wears?
    But woman's body is the woman...

I think this is one of the hardest pressures on women. When worth and femininity are measured primarily by looks, a woman can't win. Whereas since male worth and masculinity is measured primarily by deed and behavior, he can always theoretically become more valuable. But a woman can do little about the looks she's born with. Cosmetics and surgery only go so far while her 'worth' depreciates with every passing year.
'Letting oneself 'go' in the female world is as taboo and likely to invite ridicule as doing something 'girly' in the male world.

[Inanna]

I think we feel the pressures proportionately to how dissimilar they are from how we would behave otherwise.

[Horizon]

I have yet to live as both genders, so I can't give any accurate comparisons of varying levels of pressure, but I can give my experience of what society expects of males (and maybe I can actually refrain from just yelling IHATEITIHATEITIHATEIT!!!).

I've never been able to conform to society's standards of masculinity, and even when I try, I feel like I'm some sort of cartoon character - some hyperbolic joke on a stereotype.  The "pressures" of being male are great for me; people always expect me to speak my mind freely, regardless of whether or not I could offend someone.  When I tell my friends that I don't lift because I think muscles are disgusting, they respond with, "pfft, ->-bleeped-<-got".  I can't talk about my hair care routine or how much I despise shaving to my mom without my dad giving me weird looks.  Other guys treat me like a second-class citizen because I can't leave my house without skinny jeans and a scarf.  Oh, and let us not forgot the outside requirement of being emotionally devoid at all times.  As a girl, nobody would think twice about any of those.

So I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that I see both sides as being equal, one only outweighing the other based on our personalities and traits.  I personally struggle to see how women can feel pressured in society because I see those cons as an exciting means to personal expression - something I just can't comfortably get as a guy.  I'm sure that a lot of transmen around here feel the opposite way.  :/

[Nero]

I have yet to live as both genders, so I can't give any accurate comparisons of varying levels of pressure, but I can give my experience of what society expects of males (and maybe I can actually refrain from just yelling IHATEITIHATEITIHATEIT!!!).

I've never been able to conform to society's standards of masculinity, and even when I try, I feel like I'm some sort of cartoon character - some hyperbolic joke on a stereotype.  The "pressures" of being male are great for me; people always expect me to speak my mind freely, regardless of whether or not I could offend someone.  When I tell my friends that I don't lift because I think muscles are disgusting, they respond with, "pfft, ->-bleeped-<-got".  I can't talk about my hair care routine or how much I despise shaving to my mom without my dad giving me weird looks.  Other guys treat me like a second-class citizen because I can't leave my house without skinny jeans and a scarf.  Oh, and let us not forgot the outside requirement of being emotionally devoid at all times.  As a girl, nobody would think twice about any of those.

So I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that I see both sides as being equal, one only outweighing the other based on our personalities and traits.  I personally struggle to see how women can feel pressured in society because I see those cons as an exciting means to personal expression - something I just can't comfortably get as a guy.  I'm sure that a lot of transmen around here feel the opposite way.  :/

Actually, as a trans man, I agree with you. Male expectations (read: constraints) suck. Coming from an existence of freedom of expression, to do whatever I want with my hair, my clothes, my speech, etc., society's expectations of males are all the more stifling. They're not natural either. One has only to look into history to see that men, far more than women have historically enjoyed free expression. Hell, men used to wear makeup and whatever color clothing they wanted. They also used to feel much more freedom to physically embrace male friends (look at photographs from the 1800s). It was men who were masters of speech, poetry, etc. It's only now that we're constrained.

[Brooke777]

Yeah, men are far more limited in today's society. I have found that since I have transitioned I can dress, act, and talk however I want. If I say something totally off the wall, people just say I'm cute. Before transition, if I tried that I would be looked down upon.

[A]

I think males get much more pressure to do things, while females get much more pressure NOT to do things. But I wouldn't know.

[spacerace]

I think this quote by Ambrose Pierce? basically sums up the world's attitude toward women:

To men a man is but a mind. Who cares
    What face he carries or what form he wears?
    But woman's body is the woman...

good quote.  This even happens now by guys in their 20s that have always lived post feminism, especially those who consider themselves progressive towards women and above sexism. They don't understand the problem when they evaluate women by appearance before any other criteria. It happens naturally for them.

Also trying to interact as a woman with women has been nearly impossible for me due to all of the social rules and expectations that come with being perceived as female.

This was my experience as well. I had intense social dsyphoria when grouped with women I was supposed to interact with. Especially female family members, and settings like the dorm I lived in my first year of college. Women click in ways I never understood/understand.

It was way worse because I identified as a gay female. I felt so outside of it all.

[A]

I wonder if my impressions are distorted or if my location is really different. Because here, I feel the ones treated like children are men. They get passionate about video games, care so much about those balls and pucks in a goal, they get violent, they like big motorized toys, they're too "childish" to talk about their emotions... Women just roll their eyes. "Men..."

(all of the above is an exaggeration of people's attitudes, not my opinion)

And as far as I know, almost only the older (let's say, 40+) guys REALLY look down on guys being emotional, trendy or girly. Most others either "distantly admire" it ("it's good that he's being honest with his feelings, and girls will even run to him for it, but geez, not ME, that's too gay"), speak in his back or vaguely disrespect him but won't insist on it because they know they have no valid argument.

In the same way, I think those biologically born women's hardships might be alleviated here, too. Women are literally admired for going into male fields, as far as I know, and I've never seen any females disrespecting another for her less female style. Actually, there's less than a third of girls in my program, and only a third of those, at best, "care for themselves as a woman would" (make-up, etc.) and I see no sign of them being treated badly or disrespected. Actually, I think women are respected by default as dependable, responsible and mature people, while men have to prove themselves. Heck, there are even some who think women founding a family and not prioritizing their career are doing the wrong thing.

I guess this place might be somewhat easier on trans people, if I'm not seeing what I want to see too much. Is the world changing? Has the putting aside of religion decades ago made a big difference? Am I just not socializing enough to see the bad stuff? Who knows.

[spacerace]

In the same way, I think those biologically born women's hardships might be alleviated here, too. Women are literally admired for going into male fields, as far as I know, and I've never seen any females disrespecting another for her less female style. Actually, there's less than a third of girls in my program, and only a third of those, at best, "care for themselves as a woman would" (make-up, etc.) and I see no sign of them being treated badly or disrespected. Actually, I think women are respected by default as dependable, responsible and mature people, while men have to prove themselves. Heck, there are even some who think women founding a family and not prioritizing their career are doing the wrong thing.

I don't think there is a place in this for 'who has it worse' given the number of variables and experiences involved. There's pressures both ways.

However, in a work environment, there is the presumption guys will be competent. Women may be seen has hard workers, but they are not given challenging tasks.  The biggest difference here is that when the supervisors are male, it is much easier for their male subordinates to network with them and become familiar with each other socially. This has enormous benefits for careers.  When a woman does this, it looks like she is trying to get attention for being female, and she is absolutely judged that way by other women way more so than the men.

[Carrie Liz]

It's a totally different set of pressures. What I've found (just by reading and taking to my female friends... I've yet to actually experience this in real life from the other perspective,) is that guys face greater pressure to be men. There is a HUGE stigma about males not liking feminine things, no matter how mundane, otherwise they're teased and called "gay" and people give them funny looks. And they're very much supposed to live up to that ideal masculine image, being the strong emotional rock, never showing emotion, not caring about people's feelings, and the like. Women are MUCH more allowed to like masculine things without it being seen as weird, and express the full range of emotions. But on the flip side, men aren't under as much pressure to be "perfect." They're more allowed to have flaws, and more allowed to just act dumb and gross and immature, while women are kind of expected to be perfect... selfless, nice, calm, always looking pretty, perfect students, perfect work life, perfect home life, and they're often not given a break when any of these things are awry.

So yeah... it's different kind of pressures, and it really depends which you'd rather face. Me myself, I HATE the male stigma of not being able to show emotion and not allowed to embrace my feminine side, while I'm totally 100% okay with being expected to be nice to everyone all the time, because that's the way that my mind works, and what I'd rather be expected to do. But others couldn't imagine facing the same social pressures that I'm willingly walking into, and vice versa.

[StellaB]

I believe that there's social pressures on everyone, i.e. both genders in all categories such as appearance, behaviour, achievements, and relationships so you can't say that one has it easier than the other - it's different in each area, but just that.. different.

For example I've heard it said that women have more freedom than men when it comes to the clothes they wear and men are more restricted. But that's only the case generally.

As a woman I have got used to the new restrictions on my life and one of the biggest is what to wear when living in the inner city. I generally avoid going out after 9pm at night but when I do I wear jeans.

But then again I also feel that the social pressures change on both with different social classes. Poorer people have different social pressures to people who are middle class and they have different social pressures to people who are affluent or wealthy.

[tgchar21]

And as far as I know, almost only the older (let's say, 40+) guys REALLY look down on guys being emotional, trendy or girly. Most others either "distantly admire" it ("it's good that he's being honest with his feelings, and girls will even run to him for it, but geez, not ME, that's too gay"), speak in his back or vaguely disrespect him but won't insist on it because they know they have no valid argument.

I think what you're seeing is not so much a function of being older, but rather a "generation gap" that I've noticed between those who remember the pre-women's-movement era and those who don't. I think those who remember times before that often think a guy who wants to take on feminine pursuits as sort of a "traitor" to the fight over women taking over their "space" while those who don't remember tend to have more of a "Why not, if she can do that why can't he" attitude. A perfect example is the rise of stay-at-home dads: Older people who have the notion that the father must be the breadwinner think that he's being a slacker, etc. by letting her have that role instead, while more modern families see it as a pragmatic decision if the wife has a higher salary and/or future earnings potential (and the family would be better off by having a stay-at-home parent rather than putting the kids in daycare). (Another factor post-2008 is that the recession took a larger hit on traditionally male fields than traditionally female ones, leaving more men out of work by default.) Also, in the present times I notice there is often more of a parent-grandparent gap on how boys should be raised than with girls (while a generation ago, during and right after the feminist movement, it was the opposite).

[A]

spacerace: I guess you're right. I'm giving my opinion on what I've seen, and I admittedly haven't seen much. For example, in job search, I've seen women vastly favoured most of the time, but I've barely ever been hired, so I wouldn't know much of what happens afterwards.

tgchar21: That's a smart analysis.

[peky]

spacerace: I guess you're right. I'm giving my opinion on what I've seen, and I admittedly haven't seen much. For example, in job search, I've seen women vastly favored most of the time, but I've barely ever been hired, so I wouldn't know much of what happens afterwords.

tgchar21: That's a smart analysis.

Yes, females have an easy time been hired at the entry level but not at the senior level. I work and have work in a professional engineering & science organizations for the last 30 + years, and I can tell you that beyond the superficiality of dress, appearances, body-type, etc...the bottom line is "you ability to delivery" = competence and productivity.

I do not care what race, religion or gender you are, even with the most perfect complexion, everybody faces some form of overt or covert discrimination..it is just part of being human..

So, we all have to learn our strength and play on them, developing and emotional and political intelligence is key to success...and yes along the way sometimes ethical and moral decision are gray...despite the decisions made one has to keep the spirit unbroken...


So, as far as this thread, f.... the preasures...and take advantage that you have "intel'' on both sides of the fence..make that work to your advantage