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Yeson voice feminization surgery

Started by Jennygirl, April 22, 2013, 06:09:10 PM

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0 Members and 42 Guests are viewing this topic.

abbyt89

Quote from: barbie on July 26, 2013, 09:22:50 PM
Abby,

You may need to purchase a pre-paid transportation card at any convenience store or any automatic machine like:



Please refer to the following site: http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/TR/TR_EN_5_4.jsp

barbie~~

Thanks for the info! One of my friends coincidentally just came back from Seoul and gave me her T-Money card with like 10,000W on it already :)
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Jennygirl

Quote from: Rowan Rue on July 26, 2013, 11:01:38 AM
holly WOW! that's awesome Jenny!  You totally deserve it.  You'll be incredibly valuable for their marketing.  You convinced me!
Speaking or which, roll on october/november and I will be Korea bound :)

Thanks Rowan :) I am definitely just excited to help let people know of this surgery- because I do feel that it can help a lot of people blend more easily. Honestly I hope this procedure spreads across the world making it more accessible  overall.. which would be great!

Quote from: jfong on July 26, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
That is awesome Jenny. You sounds so good and made me think about Yeson in the future, even though some people say that my regular voice is high enough.. but I don't feel that it's there yet.  You sounded even better than some regular cis people that I know.

Thank you jfong! I would say if you've already been able to train your voice and can get your pitch where it should be, this surgery may be excessive for you but it is definitely your call. One thing I did realize about a few weeks ago is that voice is like any other part of the body to me. I always desired to have a voice that passed, but I also desired to have a good voice, too! And hearing from people that it sounds good is wonderful! I feel though that like any other part of my body, it is my duty to keep making it better and constantly trying to improve.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 26, 2013, 01:28:20 PM
FANTASTIC!!!

Amazing results, and you just look so happy!

I'm so glad this worked out so well for you! (And I'm getting more and more convinced that I'm going to want to pursue this in the future. That prospect of speaking with a female voice completely 100% naturally, of not having to worry about pitch control and whether you pass or not anymore... wow... that must be so amazing!)

So happy for you! Congrats! :D

Thank you so much Carrie! I think it's important to note, I still do have to think about a lot when learning how to use my new voice. After all, you can't just go raising the pitch and expect to pass. My biggest fear is giving people the impression that this surgery will take them from start to finish and automatically give them a passing voice. I think there could definitely be some very upset people if that ends up being the case. It still takes work and a big part of my results are due to the time I've logged trying to find my problem areas and fix them.

This afternoon I am seeing Joanna Cazden, a speech therapist in Burbank who offers voice feminization therapy. Very curious to see what problem areas she is able to point out!!!

Quote from: abbyt89 on July 26, 2013, 03:44:02 PM
Jenny you sound amazing and you look so happy!! And that's awesome of Yeson to refund you 20%! You totally deserve it, you alone got at least three other girls to set a date. :)

I was thinking about that the other day, but it did not really dawn on me how many people this could possibly inform. I was and still am way more happy to simply help spread knowledge- but helping Yeson with marketing is neat, too... I really am very thankful for what they've done and this seemed like a small favor and I expected nothing in return.

Quote from: NekoKoNeko on July 26, 2013, 08:47:24 PM
Jennygirl's voice:

...

Well...maybe those should be coming out of the ears, but whatever. This whole thread has been awesome, Jennygirl.

I lol'd when I saw this. Thanks Neko :D

Quote from: barbie on July 26, 2013, 09:22:50 PM
Abby,

You may need to purchase a pre-paid transportation card at any convenience store or any automatic machine like:

Please refer to the following site: http://visitkorea.or.kr/ena/TR/TR_EN_5_4.jsp

barbie~~

I found a cute little Hello Kitty pre paid thing in gangnam. I followed the lead of the women there and attached it to my purse.. on the zipper pull actually. It's really nice not having to get something out of your bag to access the train system- especially when you are in a rush or transferring a whole bunch of times!
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Jennygirl

A little update...

I started voice therapy today! I think it went pretty well. She first asked me about the voice surgery and I explained it to her in detail, she said that she was very excited to work with me and tailor this therapy to my needs. Then she asked me what it is that I wanted to work on since my voice was already passing. I explained to her all of the problem areas that I want to correct:

• expressiveness in my voice tends to diminish while around people I've known or after talking for a while
• resonance with louder voice
• weakness in voice / upper pitch range during early part of the day
• singing

She then had me stand up to talk aimlessly about something, and as I talked she felt my jaw, neck, throat, shoulders, back, and ab muscles. She then told me that I hold a lot of tension in my jaw and that I breathe kind of shallow. Apparently it could be from trying to already modify my resonance that I hold my jaw tighter because I am trying to keep my throat and mouth smaller. I wholeheartedly agree with her! Also the shallow breathing can also be attributed to subconscious changes that I have made to sound more feminine.

There is also one really interesting thing she told me about. Apparently one of her friends pursued brain imaging for the sole purpose of relating it to voice studies. One of her findings was that when people hum a low monotone note, there is very little brain activity. When someone sings a low note to a high note, all of the emotional centers of the brain light up. There is a direct correlation between using a larger pitch dynamic and being more emotionally expressive. A likely roadblock for many MtF's is from the social oppressions that males face growing up, since it is common for males to have to subdue or suppress emotions which means monotone voice and never breaking their "cool". Females on the other hand are not usually oppressed in this way, which leads to more emotional expressiveness and larger range of pitch dynamic! I thought that was really interesting and figured I would share :)

One other thing that she mentioned to do with the early day weakness in pitch range.... apparently vocal cords are thinner when you wake up, because they haven't really been warmed up / engorged with blood. It takes a thicker vocal cord to make a higher noise. By the end of the day, blood makes the vocal cords thicker and it is easier to maintain a higher pitch. She said that vocal cords come in all shapes and sizes, and that perhaps I had thin vocal cords to start out with. She thinks that people with thinner vocal cords tend to hit their peak voice sometime in the evening, whereas people with thicker vocal cords are good almost straight out of bed- but feel a little worn out by the end of the day.

The main goal of our therapy right now is to loosen up my jaw and relax my breathing. Really, it is to relax everything. That is going to help with every single one of my problem areas- especially singing, she said. I have been given a secondary set of relaxation / stretching exercises to do alongside of the ones from Yeson, as well as some exercises to further develop proper resonance using a louder voice!

She said that she's really happy to work with me and I'm excited to work with her! I think we will make some good progress together, and I'm looking forward to it!
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Lena from Kiev

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 27, 2013, 09:30:21 PMI started voice therapy

One other thing that she mentioned to do with the early day weakness in pitch range.... apparently vocal cords are thinner when you wake up, because they haven't really been warmed up / engorged with blood. It takes a thicker vocal cord to make a higher noise. By the end of the day, blood makes the vocal cords thicker and it is easier to maintain a higher pitch.
Actually, it's the opposite. If vocal folds are "engorged with blood" then their mass increases. More massive vocal folds give lower pitch. The surgeon in Moscow I mentioned in this thread thinned vocal folds (with "Coblator" device) in order to increase pitch besides tying anterior ends of vocal folds together like Yason does.

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 27, 2013, 09:30:21 PMI have been given

some exercises to further develop proper resonance using a louder voice
Please describe these exercises. Thanks.
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Jennygirl


Quote from: Lena from Kiev on July 28, 2013, 01:20:40 AM
Actually, it's the opposite. If vocal folds are "engorged with blood" then their mass increases. More massive vocal folds give lower pitch. The surgeon in Moscow I mentioned in this thread thinned vocal folds (with "Coblator" device) in order to increase pitch besides tying anterior ends of vocal folds together like Yason does.
Please describe these exercises. Thanks.

How she described it is that higher pitches require stronger (consequently thicker) vocal cords to make much higher pitches. The example she gave was how old men tend to have softer voices because their vocal chords start to thin with the decline of testosterone in the bloodstream.

It is probable that due to the thinning of the vocal cords during this surgery as well as the limited use of the cords shortly post op, the vocal cords become significantly thinner / weaker and need to be strengthened again just like any other muscle in the body.

The part about blood does make sense to me. A muscle is stronger when it has plenty of blood flow. The vocal muscles I'm pretty sure are no exception.

The relaxation exercises range from opening the jaw all the way and licking the roof of the mouth from front to back... to placing hands across the upper chest providing weight while looking up with jaw open and stretching the tongue up towards the sky. "Sky licks"

She said these would compliment my exercises from Yeson which include lip trill sirens and lip trills on C up to G to name a few!

Hope this answers your questions!
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Lena from Kiev

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 28, 2013, 02:11:58 AM
How she described it is that higher pitches require stronger (consequently thicker) vocal cords to make much higher pitches. The example she gave was how old men tend to have softer voices because their vocal chords start to thin with the decline of testosterone in the bloodstream.

It is probable that due to the thinning of the vocal cords during this surgery as well as the limited use of the cords shortly post op, the vocal cords become significantly thinner / weaker and need to be strengthened again just like any other muscle in the body.

The part about blood does make sense to me. A muscle is stronger when it has plenty of blood flow. The vocal muscles I'm pretty sure are no exception.
From article about production of voice:
Fundamental frequency, the main acoustic cue for the percept pitch, can be varied through a variety of means. Large scale changes are accomplished by increasing the tension in the vocal folds through contraction of the cricothyroid muscle. Smaller changes in tension can be effected by contraction of the thyroarytenoid muscle or changes in the relative position of the thyroid and cricoid cartilages
The unscientific phrase "vocal cords" or "vocal chords" is used colloquially for vocal folds. There are a ligament and a muscle inside each vocal fold. The muscle is called "vocalis muscle" or "thyroarytenoid muscle". But the vocalis muscle relaxes the vocal ligament (inside vocal fold) when strained! The muscle which increases pitch (by making vocal folds more taut) when strained is the cricothyroid muscle - it's not inside vocal folds, but between thyroid cartilage (the large cartilage which has Adam's apple on the outside and anterior ends of vocal folds attached on the inside) and cricoid cartilage (a ring between thyroid cartilage and the trachea tube below from lungs).

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 28, 2013, 02:11:58 AMThe relaxation exercises range from opening the jaw all the way and licking the roof of the mouth from front to back... to placing hands across the upper chest providing weight while looking up with jaw open and stretching the tongue up towards the sky. "Sky licks"
This is supposed to develop more feminine resonance?

Can she explain why and how to elevate larynx?
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Jennygirl

Quote from: Lena from Kiev on July 28, 2013, 04:00:01 AM
From article about production of voice:
Fundamental frequency, the main acoustic cue for the percept pitch, can be varied through a variety of means. Large scale changes are accomplished by increasing the tension in the vocal folds through contraction of the cricothyroid muscle. Smaller changes in tension can be effected by contraction of the thyroarytenoid muscle or changes in the relative position of the thyroid and cricoid cartilages
The unscientific phrase "vocal cords" or "vocal chords" is used colloquially for vocal folds. There are a ligament and a muscle inside each vocal fold. The muscle is called "vocalis muscle" or "thyroarytenoid muscle". But the vocalis muscle relaxes the vocal ligament (inside vocal fold) when strained! The muscle which increases pitch (by making vocal folds more taut) when strained is the cricothyroid muscle - it's not inside vocal folds, but between thyroid cartilage (the large cartilage which has Adam's apple on the outside and anterior ends of vocal folds attached on the inside) and cricoid cartilage (a ring between thyroid cartilage and the trachea tube below from lungs).
This is supposed to develop more feminine resonance?

Can she explain why and how to elevate larynx?

Interesting info. I remember reading something about the biology of those muscles quite some time ago.

The exercises I went over are to alleviate the tension I have in my jaw, which also affects resonance- yes.

There is a second set of exercises though that go through a series of M and N sounding words that focus the vibration sensation behind the teeth or in the nose... up and out of the chest. She didn't talk about raising the larynx with me this time, but I've seen it mentioned as part of her methodology when helping trans patients- so I'm assuming she's keen on the topic. Definitely something to ask her about next time!

Did I pass the exam, master? :laugh: I can't help but feel like you are testing me. But that's okay. I can hang!
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Lena from Kiev

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 28, 2013, 04:37:15 AMI can't help but feel like you are testing me.
If a therapist feeds you some baloney, I try to explain. My goal is to explain to everybody who reads this thread: voice physics, what the resonance is, why it's so important and how to change it. Surgery at Yeson doesn't change resonance.

But I got the impression that even you didn't read the explanation I linked above in this thread.
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Jennygirl

Oh, sorry! I don't have a yahoo groups account so yeah. If you quote it here, I'm sure many more (myself included) will see it and would be happy to read it! Resonance is definitely relevant to this thread. I've actually understood the principles behind larynx position as it relates to voice feminization for a while, so I thought your link was more for people who needed to know more about it.

I did not get the impression that the voice therapist I saw today was feeding me baloney at all. Perhaps I did not do a good enough job with the interpretation of what she said. I do feel a little struck down that you think I would accept someone feeding me baloney. I am after all a vegetarian... I watch out for that sorta stuff ;)
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kathyp

Hi Jenny
I saw Joanne the same day you did, my appointment was at 12:30 (I don't use my real name on this site) am really grateful to have found her before I head off to Yeson. She has me focusing on resonance and ignoring the pitch assuming surgery will fix that part.  I'll probably see her 3 or 4 times before I go and more after surgery. 
Thanks again for the referral and congrats on the lucrative refund,
Cara
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Carlita

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 26, 2013, 10:49:57 AM

In other news, this morning I woke up to a quite wonderful email (to say the least) from Yeson.

Apparently they loved the video, and to show their appreciation they are sending me 20% of my surgery cost back! I can't believe it! Never in a million years did I expect this to happen. I can already tell- today's gonna be a good day!!

You totally deserve AT LEAST a 20% refund. I can't believe that any girl who sees your video isn't going to think: 'I HAVE TO GO TO YESON NOW!!!!'  :)
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Shantel

Quote from: Carlita on July 29, 2013, 05:31:28 AM
You totally deserve AT LEAST a 20% refund. I can't believe that any girl who sees your video isn't going to think: 'I HAVE TO GO TO YESON NOW!!!!'  :)

She's Yeson's best outside sales rep and poster girl for voice feminization surgery, she should get a commission!
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Jennygirl

Quote from: kathyp on July 29, 2013, 03:59:35 AM
Hi Jenny
I saw Joanne the same day you did, my appointment was at 12:30 (I don't use my real name on this site) am really grateful to have found her before I head off to Yeson. She has me focusing on resonance and ignoring the pitch assuming surgery will fix that part.  I'll probably see her 3 or 4 times before I go and more after surgery. 
Thanks again for the referral and congrats on the lucrative refund,
Cara

Hey neat! I just barely missed you, then :) My appointment was at 2.

Shantel & Carlita-

You guys crack me up. I definitely would not want to be a poster girl or sales rep- it doesn't really suit my personality. I have just been sharing my experience simply because there aren't a lot of people doing it for this specific surgery... and I know how helpful it would have been going into it!

I think a lot of people will want to go there no matter what once learning about it. The list of benefits as compared to other voice feminization surgeries is likely extensive enough to convince about anyone that they should consider.

Dr. Kim deserves every penny he makes... He is a wonderfully caring and detailed surgeon with the most developed procedure and highest amount of skill / experience to pull it off. He has NEVER had a case of someone losing their voice, and only once did he have to re-operate on someone because they yelled too quickly during the recovery period.
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abbyt89

Hey Jenny sorry if you've mentioned this somewhere and I just missed it, but how are things like laughs and coughs? Do you have to focus on them to sound feminine?
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Jennygirl


Quote from: abbyt89 on July 29, 2013, 11:35:29 AM
Hey Jenny sorry if you've mentioned this somewhere and I just missed it, but how are things like laughs and coughs? Do you have to focus on them to sound feminine?

It's okay! No I don't think I have addressed it.

Yes I have had to focus on it slightly, but not having that low register makes it pretty easy.

Needless to say, my laugh sounds very different. I had to learn how to laugh and giggle differently within the new higher range. It was fun though. And while I am still working a little bit on the hearty laugh, I have the giggle down ;)

As far as coughing, it does sound different, too. I didn't have to think about that one at all.
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Lena from Kiev

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 28, 2013, 06:04:03 AMI don't have a yahoo groups account so yeah. If you quote it here, I'm sure many more (myself included) will see it and would be happy to read it! Resonance is definitely relevant to this thread.
I made a webpage with explanation how to change resonance: http://lena.kiev.ua/voice/. Surgery at Yeson changes pitch but doesn't change resonance. Change of pitch only is not enough for voice to become female.
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JillSter

Jenny, tbh this thread is half the reason I joined the forum. I wanted to thank you for the info and updates.

Knowing about Yeson has made me so much more confidant. I worry a LOT about my voice. I haven't started transitioning yet, but when I do I'll be a lot more confidant because I know this is on the horizon. I'll still do voice training though. :) Gotta cover all your bases, right?

Thank you!

And btw, you're adorable!
;)
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abbyt89

Quote from: Jennygirl on July 29, 2013, 04:54:38 PM
It's okay! No I don't think I have addressed it.

Yes I have had to focus on it slightly, but not having that low register makes it pretty easy.

Needless to say, my laugh sounds very different. I had to learn how to laugh and giggle differently within the new higher range. It was fun though. And while I am still working a little bit on the hearty laugh, I have the giggle down ;)

As far as coughing, it does sound different, too. I didn't have to think about that one at all.

Yay that's awesome! I'm sure learning how to laugh again must have been pretty neat. I can't wait until i can get my giggle down!! :D
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Jennygirl

Lena- that's a great page! Yeah I don't think most voice therapists would go into that depth of info. You are probably right surmising that they just teach exercises. Knowing about pulling the larynx back, too, is helpful to me. Thanks for linking it here :) That is a REALLY good read!

Jillian- I think that kind of confidence is absolutely key when planning transition. When I started, I was fairly confident I could get my voice with practice alone. Well, I was half right. I could use my voice in private, but I had absolutely no ability to transfer it into public conversation.

And thanks for your kind words, too :)

Abby- yeah I am still figuring it out little by little, and it is exciting because about every week I notice an increase in the kinds of sounds I am able to make. I am also becoming more confident making louder noises, which I think is slowly strengthening my vocal cords back closer to what they were before. My voice is still kinda soft, but it's gotten so much better even this past week!

And a little update about my recovery progress... I hit a D5 yesterday in the car on the way home from work :D :D That is a personal record for me. Before when I would try to hit a high note, my voice would get up to about a Bb4 and crack down to a F#4 as I continued to add more tension.. Now it's starting to feel stronger and I am able to extend my range upwards. Honestly it feels like I might be able to go much higher once I regain strength.

Also another interesting thing... My low range (135-150hz) is really starting to click to me as LOW. I am continually amazed at the lack of lower range that I have and I don't even think about it now. Even just thinking about those pitches doesn't register anymore. I have no idea what my voice used to sound like from inside my head.

The stretching exercises my speech therapist gave me seem to be working. I'm able to warm up my voice sufficiently on the way to work. I do the stretches right in the middle of Yeson's voice functionality exercises and I no longer feel any strain after completing the exercises. By the time I get to work, I have almost full range capabilities whereas before I usually felt much more limited. So, yay :)

I'm going to do another video update kinda soon here. The response I've received from the videos I have up on youtube is kind of shocking to me and I think I will try to roll with it.

Happy Friday everyone :D
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Jamie D

Quote from: Lena from Kiev on July 30, 2013, 01:38:52 PM
I made a webpage with explanation how to change resonance: http://lena.kiev.ua/voice/. Surgery at Yeson changes pitch but doesn't change resonance. Change of pitch only is not enough for voice to become female.

Thank you for posting the link Lena!   :D

I love great explanatory graphics - it helps me visualize the issues.
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