Yeson voice feminization surgery

[vlmitchell]

You'll get there. You can't actually change the pitch-range of the voice through surgery. Given that the vocal cords stay the same size, thickness wise, all that you can do is decrease the resonance that the larynx produces and shorten the vocal tract... a little. The Yeson method is, like has been mentioned before, just basically a vocal capo.

FWIW: I can hit 460+hz with just exercise and training. The samples you've heard are the voice that I settled on because I didn't want to go so ridiculously high that the voice would sound weird for someone my size to have. I just warmed up my vocal tract and did that little sequence I do with an average pitch of ~260 (30 greater than female normal) and a F3 of 3191. My old voice was about 190hz with a F3 of ~2400hz so, don't worry too much about it.

[jennifer@]

Anja- Your question about the range changes with Yeson I cannot fully answer yet, my range is still changing. They say that you don't lose any range at all.. and I'm still getting mine back.. so no way to tell for sure in my case yet. Full recovery is after 12months.

Jennifer- Yes, I was full time before I went to Korea. I did not have any issues except for my bank shutting my card down and not being able to talk to them to reactivate it. You aren't even allowed to whisper. Make SURE your bank knows you will be traveling and absolutely not to shut it off for any reason at all because it could be dangerous otherwise. Luckily I was with a friend, and she was able to spot for me. What a nightmare that was.

I would ask Abby what hotel she was at, it sounded a lot better than Hotel Prince in Myeongdong

Try everywhere for food. It's more about what you want to eat than where. I bet barbie has some great suggestions! I really like hot stone bimbimbap and korean bbq... those were my favorite meal experiences!

Paige- I am getting there, but it's more like a scream rather than a shriek. I think I still have a bit of range finding to do before I can shriek Although i can make this squeaky noise that I never be able to make before. It's super high pitched (700hz-1000hz) and still pretty unexplored territory. Maybe that is the high range I've been looking for and I have to learn how to use it?

Hey Jennifer! I think I can help answer some questions:

1. I did, yes. My original plan was to go to Korea, have the surgery, and then come back and present full-time. Then I decided I would just be full-time while in Korea, and then ultimately I just went full-time before I left lol. I had my passport updated to show my new picture, so even though I had a male name I had no issues with identification leaving or entering. Credit cards I had no issue using, but like Jenny said you must call your bank and let them know you are travelling to Korea so they won't automatically freeze your card once it's used.

2. I stayed at Gangnam Artnouveau City II. It's a very nice hotel very conveniently located in Gangnam at a pretty great price. I have some more information about the hotel and its location in my posts on this page of Sarah's Yeson thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148880.40.html. And here's a link to the hotel itself:http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html

3. There are a million places to eat in Seoul! Just keep in mind that a lot of Korean cuisine is spicy and that you must avoid spicy food during the recovery. There are a ton of fast food restaurants and chain restaurants like Paris Baguette Cafe (sort of like Panera Bread) all around Seoul, and if you're more adventurous you can just wander any of the side streets and come across a ton of more authentic restaurants. The hotel I stayed in has a kitchen with fridge/freezer so you can also cook from there if you like.

4. It can be a little bit daunting getting around at first since everything is so different! But thankfully the subway is so easy to use and everything is written in English. Jessie is super helpful with everything so if you have any specific questions that we can't answer I'm sure she can help. Also Barbie is a seoul native who pops in this thread from time to time so maybe she can give you some advice too. And I know this thread is really long at this point but if you read through it you'll see a lot of helpful posts.

Good luck!

Thanks Jenny and Abby for the great information. BTW you both sound great....

[Jennygirl]

You'll get there. You can't actually change the pitch-range of the voice through surgery. Given that the vocal cords stay the same size, thickness wise, all that you can do is decrease the resonance that the larynx produces and shorten the vocal tract... a little. The Yeson method is, like has been mentioned before, just basically a vocal capo.

I just re read this and I don't think it's necessarily a limitation of Yeson's surgery. It's not actually just like a capo... Guitar strings are completely different from a vibrating vocal membrane. This surgery would be more relatable if it was a capo on a guitar with thick rubber band strings and 4" fret height that the capo would have to squash down into. More tension = thinner stretched membrane. Not just shortened length.

Another thing that Dr. Kim at Yeson told me to consider was that the voice post op will continue to sound more female due to the thinning effects on the vocal cords from estrogen. As you are on HRT for longer, the vocal cords do become less beefy. It's just that if there is no decrease in length to accompany, there is no change to the range other than weakness at lower frequencies... Maybe that partly explains why women who have long been on HRT and using a female voice can have pain when trying to go back to their previous lower voice?

Just judging from my own results so far with this surgery, I've had about a 4 semitone increase in upper head voice range and it feels like there will be more range to realize as I continue to recover.

[barbie]

3. Places to eat?

Jennifer,

It would depend on what type of food you want to eat. I try to avoid meat, but here usually people eat together, not alone, in restaurant, and I sometimes have to eat pork and beef.

There are some food streets in Seoul, especially in Gangbuk (old town), where you can look food and sit in a chair to eat food. Keep in mind that red color means very spicy, but some foreigners do like spicy food. If you like sea food, there are various restaurant. Japanese tourists like sea food here, because the price is much cheaper than in Japan.

I heard one guy from the U.S. suffered here because he does not eat garlic. Virtually every dish here contains garlic, and his last resort was Kentucky Fried Chicken. If you are not adventurous, then  you can look for McDonald, Pizza Hut and Domino pizza.

Also there are many internet sites on restaurants in Seoul: http://www.tripadvisor.co.kr/Restaurants-g294197-Seoul.html

I always carry more than 3 credit cards when traveling abroad, because some credit companies have too high security policy and can close my credit account temporarily. They even try to contact me through international call. Also, I leave at least one credit card in the hotel room for the case I lose my wallet. When I once stayed in San Francisco, I lost my wallet, but I could use one credit card kept in the hotel room to get some emergency cash from ATM.

I am going to fly to Vancouver, Canada, tomorrow. It will be far colder than here and I have to pack up winter clothes.

barbie~~

[anjaq]

Interesting about the estrogen effect. I caanot say i noticed that significantly as my female voice actuallly does sound a bit worse than at the start. I cannot totally reproduce the old voice any longer, but i think that is due to psychological reasons and due to my different use of the voice box muscles. I. Did not try use it for more than 30 sec though, so maybe i would be in pain if that would be longer. 
I do not quite get why the capo analogy is wrong. As i understood it, the surgery does not change tension or resonance but just the active length of the vocal chords?
That increase in head voice capability sounds awesome. Is it from voice training or really from surgery? Most people seem to write in the net that there is only a loss at the low range, but then again most are very negative about it overall.

What i wanted to ask-sorry if i ask to much - you did have a female voice pre opn yes? With higher pitch. If you speak now, does it feel more like you do the same thing as in the unaltered voice before, the female voice before, or something else? If you do what you did in the female voice pre op (muscle tension etc) will you be in a very high pitch range? I noticed that if i focus on getting resonance right, i am always also increasing pitch, so i wonder if my original pitch is 100 hz and if i appy resonance i am at 150, where would i end up after such a surgery with +70 hz? At 170 or at 220. I need to do the effort of resonance contol afterwards still, after all.
Thanks a bunch. I am so excited at how this worked for you after only hearing and reading bad stuff on voice surgeries.

[Jennygirl]

One of the reasons Yeson recommends against tracheal shaves (which I guess they offer a "safe" one now?) is that if too much is taken away it will reduce the support needed to increase tension on the vocal cords, possibly limiting results.

So in a nutshell, yes in addition to shortening the vocal cords they are also slightly tensioned and thinned.

Comparing my no effort voice pre to post op is where the money is. When asked to sing "ahh" "aay" "eee" "oooh" "ooo" at a comfortable pitch for Yeson during my pre-op exam, it was 140hz. Now if I just make a hum noise at the most comfortable pitch with no effort, I come in regularly at 205hz. Does the rest of my voice feel different, too? Absolutely!

As far as the upper range extension being due to vocal exercises alone? I doubt it. Pre op, I had a very regular voice training regimen going on in my car to and from work

The loud voice is getting there... Worlds better than what it was 2 months ago.

[barbie]

I envy your girls who underwent VFS, but it is not an option for me. My daughter and sons love my low voice. They say my voice is softer than mom's, sedating them.

Instead, today I got hyaluronic filler to reduce wrinkles connecting my nosewings and lips before going to Canada. It costed about US$500, and the doctor recommended me to come again in 3 months to take another one. And, she added like "you may not need so many fillers, because you are a man." I replied like "Why not? I will do everything I can." I guess it will be addictive... and I may need more and more.

Anyway, right now is a best period to visit Seoul, as it is not too hot or cold.

barbie~~

[Paige0000]

One of the reasons Yeson recommends against tracheal shaves (which I guess they offer a "safe" one now?) is that if too much is taken away it will reduce the support needed to increase tension on the vocal cords, possibly limiting results.

So in a nutshell, yes in addition to shortening the vocal cords they are also slightly tensioned and thinned.

Interesting. Do you think shaving only a little off would be okay? Mines not too bad but I would prefer the bump reduced abit. I can live with having a minor shave and a good vocal surgery result over no shave and a very good result.  Would they allow this you think?

[anjaq]

Ah ok, so the tension increases becauso of the sutures or do they deliberately add tension? I read abot vfs that focusses on tension alone - it is one of the examples for ineffectiveness in many as the tension seems to normalize later. So i guess if it does not it is good, otherwise its better to do the yeson method as it does not rely on it - it just gives some patients an additional benefit. Not all though, i imagine.
So, jenny what happens if you do the same things as you did befor when you did the female vouice? Are you up in th 260ies then? I guess for me it is a bit odd now as i have both voices -  originally at 100 hz, but that no longer is my comfort zone as i have not used that relaxed(?) voice in years. I am comfortable now at 140 or 150, so i guess that may be a starting point then - Ooor i would have to get in the habit of going down again to relax my voice into the way that makes it 100 pre and maybe 170 post then. I guess it is hard for you to describe how your vocal tract works pre and post op resp with doing a female voice pre vs now?

Barbie, i am getting nice comments on my voice as well of that kind. As in i supposedly have a calm and pretty voice. Sadly it is androgynous as well. So i am a bit afraid if a vfs would change not only pitch but also the "prettyness" of the voice. But i guess it is a risk. A typical arielle problem again as it is with many trans things...

At least i dont need to worry about trach shaves.

[Evolving Beauty]

One of the reasons Yeson recommends against tracheal shaves (which I guess they offer a "safe" one now?) is that if too much is taken away it will reduce the support needed to increase tension on the vocal cords, possibly limiting results.

My frend sent an email and they told her the result wont be so good cos she had Trachea shave before. It's still prominent and she has to do it again, she tried to do with Yeson for the same day of VFS but they said the result wont be good. But my friend told me that she should have it BEFORE going to Korea or AFTER but I'm not so sure maybe she misunderstood what they told and it's not so clear till now. Reading the email myself, I understood it as... HAVING TRACHEA SHAVE BEFORE AND DOlNG THAT VFS SURGERY WlLL HAVE BAD RESULTS. We're still waiting for Korea's response again to clarify.

I have a very prominent adam's apple. I went already though Trachea shave once and I need to go a 2nd time again, so will that VFS not work for me anymore as I'm gonna go 2 times. Its UNBEARABLE to remain with adam's apple, YOU CAN BE CLOCKED MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. Better remove it than have a SLIGHT masculine voice.

CAN SOMEONE CLARIFY THAT TRACHEA SHAVE AND VFS IN KOREA PLEASE?

[jfong]

I am going to fly to Vancouver, Canada, tomorrow. It will be far colder than here and I have to pack up winter clothes.

barbie~~

Actually only today and Sat that will be a bit cold and wet here in Vancouver. After that it should be pretty nice (and crisp). My roomate who just come back from Seoul said that it was still pretty hot there.

[sarahb]

One of the reasons Yeson recommends against tracheal shaves (which I guess they offer a "safe" one now?) is that if too much is taken away it will reduce the support needed to increase tension on the vocal cords, possibly limiting results.

Jenny, didn't you have a trachea shave before the VFS? I thought I saw somewhere that you did. I'm curious since I'm reading a lot of comments here about how the results won't be as good if you had it done prior to surgery. I had mine done back in '08, about 5 years ago, with Dr. O. I'm hoping it doesn't affect my results too much.

[Jennygirl]

This is what Jessie told me when I freaked out asking almost the exact same questions:

If you've had the trach shave and your voice was 100% unaffected, you'll be fine. However, if you've had a trach shave and lost vocal range, your results from the surgery will be limited.

Sarah- I went to Dr. O for tracheal shave 3 months prior to going to Korea. Everything turned out great

The only reason to worry is having a trach shave affect your voice. That is the signifier that going to Yeson is not a good idea. And I would totally NOT recommend doing tracheal shave after this surgery. Noooo way would I want to put my voice at risk! I would recommend doing it before and finding someone who you know will be super careful not to take too much cartilage away!

I had an extremely prominent adams apple so I completely understand the comment about passing and needing to have it done. I completely agree. I just can't stress enough, don't go to a doctor who will butcher you if you plan on having this surgery. My adams apple is still visible, but at the very least it's been rounded out and gender neutral enough that with the rest of my presentation it never gets me clocked. Dr. O did a fantastic job and was adamant about not taking too much cartilage away. I was sure to let him know how concerned I was about my voice.

[sarahb]

This is what Jessie told me when I freaked out asking almost the exact same questions:

If you've had the trach shave and your voice was 100% unaffected, you'll be fine. However, if you've had a trach shave and lost vocal range, your results from the surgery will be limited.

Sarah- I went to Dr. O for tracheal shave 3 months prior to going to Korea. Everything turned out great

The only reason to worry is having a trach shave affect your voice. That is the signifier that going to Yeson is not a good idea. And I would totally NOT recommend doing tracheal shave after this surgery. Noooo way would I want to put my voice at risk! I would recommend doing it before and finding someone who you know will be super careful not to take too much cartilage away!

I had an extremely prominent adams apple so I completely understand the comment about passing and needing to have it done. I completely agree. I just can't stress enough, don't go to a doctor who will butcher you if you plan on having this surgery. My adams apple is still visible, but at the very least it's been rounded out and gender neutral enough that with the rest of my presentation it never gets me clocked. Dr. O did a fantastic job and was adamant about not taking too much cartilage away. I was sure to let him know how concerned I was about my voice.

Ok, that makes me feel better! I don't think the trach shave affected my voice so I should be fine I guess.

[Jennygirl]

Ok, that makes me feel better! I don't think the trach shave affected my voice so I should be fine I guess.

Yep, you have no reason to worry Sarah! It's gonna be great!

[Paige0000]

This is what Jessie told me when I freaked out asking almost the exact same questions:

If you've had the trach shave and your voice was 100% unaffected, you'll be fine. However, if you've had a trach shave and lost vocal range, your results from the surgery will be limited.

Sarah- I went to Dr. O for tracheal shave 3 months prior to going to Korea. Everything turned out great

The only reason to worry is having a trach shave affect your voice. That is the signifier that going to Yeson is not a good idea. And I would totally NOT recommend doing tracheal shave after this surgery. Noooo way would I want to put my voice at risk! I would recommend doing it before and finding someone who you know will be super careful not to take too much cartilage away!

I had an extremely prominent adams apple so I completely understand the comment about passing and needing to have it done. I completely agree. I just can't stress enough, don't go to a doctor who will butcher you if you plan on having this surgery. My adams apple is still visible, but at the very least it's been rounded out and gender neutral enough that with the rest of my presentation it never gets me clocked. Dr. O did a fantastic job and was adamant about not taking too much cartilage away. I was sure to let him know how concerned I was about my voice.

They suggested for me that if I really desire a shave that they do it themselves to limit the risk. Do you think I should or instead get the shave done with a top quality surgeon before getting my vocal surgery? I'm at an impasse on what to do right now 

[ilubfood]

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[anjaq]

Welcome ilubfood. Good to have you here . I hope you will keep us updated with your progress and results and if you like, we certainly would love to hear clips of the progress and maybe a before and after, if you like to share. No pressure though, if you dont like to have your voice in public thats totally understandable

[Jennygirl]

They suggested for me that if I really desire a shave that they do it themselves to limit the risk. Do you think I should or instead get the shave done with a top quality surgeon before getting my vocal surgery? I'm at an impasse on what to do right now 

I would ask more.. Aka location of scar, etc. I would also ask who would do it (Dr Kim or a different doctor) and how many times they've performed thyroid cartilage reduction and to see a few before and after pictures. It's a cosmetic procedure which I was not aware that they did. It is after all a voice clinic. But, the area that they are in (Gangnam) probably has one of (if not the) highest concentration of plastic surgeons. It totally felt like the Beverly Hills of Korea in that regard. Excited to hear what barbie will have to say about it

Hi Everyone,
My name is Ava and i had just recently had the VFS with Yeson as well! I have just got back to California for 2 days now from Seoul and i can't wait to hear the results! Thank you for Jenny and Abby for documenting your recovery on here. I find it very helpful as i am going through it at the moment!

Thanks for sharing and can't wait to hear your results! Welcome!!

[Lauren5]

Sorry if it's a rude question, but about how much does the procedure cost?
Just trying to get an overall estimate of the cost of the whole transition process. I'm not sure if I'd need this, as I have a large vocal range, but settle towards the bottom of it, but just in case, to have the number.