Yeson voice feminization surgery

[alexiakk]

Thanks Amy for replying!

You're probably one of the persons here who I hope can give me an explanation cuz you know so much in singing 

So the soprano C I was indicating is the C6 - Soprano High C. I'm sure it's not falsetto and glad my cords aren't "corrupted" by testosterone.

By comfortably hitting, F3 is usable without any modifications, but with pushing the larynx down I can go to A2 (and the volume will decrease) - that's the lowest, and then no matter how harsh I push it's gonna be fry. (well Mariah Carey goes down to G2... shameful to me)

and then I go up to Eb6 with a connected voice, head to chest, vice versa, ascending and descending. I don't have whistle register.
and as comfortably high - I will say it's Bb5. This question is quite hard for me since I had a bad singing habit - always pushing chest up too much and not knowing how to pass passaggio smoothly (i.e. I always work too hard, and even feel uncomfortable if I don't "attack" on high notes - despite I can.)

Seems like my voice is always muffled until E4.

[alexiakk]

Dear Alexia,

this is quite a story you're posting here.

Well, then it seems to be that pitch is not your problem, but resonance. And that's not the good doctor's fault.

Can you put this in context: what is soprano C for you? The soprano range has 3 Cs:

• middle C on the piano, aka C4 (that's the one everybody can sing, regardless of voice type),
• the one an octave above, C5, just over midway in treble clef (that's "tenor high C"),
• and C6 above treble clef, soprano high C (Queen of the Night is a perfect fourth above that still).

Can you tell us which one you're referring to as "soprano C"? Soprano high C is usually out of range for testosterone-modified vocal cords, although my friend Martin – quite a tenor –, who died in 2002, was able to hit it with lots of force.

So in essence, can you provide us with your range? Lowest and highest pitch you can comfortably hit, plus F0 (speaking pitch average). Dr. Kim should have given you a printout with all this information on it.

The lowest pitch you can comfortably hit is usually the best clue for voice type.

Regards,

Amy

BTW, I would definitely recommend Dr. Kim to you, Amy. He is knowledgeable, honest, and patient. He knows both really well in speaking and singing since there are a lot of professional K-POP singers having treatments with him.  I asked him about an hour of questions (and most of the patients only get 10 minutes to meet him lol). I even discussed some questions about singing with him!

He mentioned that the result of this VFS surgery is not gonna make you a soprano, or even mezzo - only alto - for whatever reason if you were not one of those voice types, but falsetto will disappear after the surgery since one can hit the note with modal head voice (which is more natural). Singing is more complicated according to him, it involves physiological muscle differences, tissue density, and the pattern of how to use these muscles in your brain (I think you're fine with this cuz you're professional and can control ), but he's not willing to tell me so much in detail.

Statistically, based only on the size of the vocal cords, mine sit in the range or high-mezzo and low-soprano, but I don't use it properly. C6 is probably the highest note I can go with bad techniques and little effort, and without pushing and squeaking my throat. I rarely sing with head voice (una voce poco fa in Maria Callas's key is probably the "upper comfortable limit" to me, and Queen of the night is beyond my range - I can't get that F6). But Bb5 is a piece of cake - the high note Christina sang in Run to You.

I don't know whether this is correct and I hope you can answer me, Amy. Might "habits" influences one's comfortable range in some aspect? For example, Maria Callas has a low speaking voice and tends to use deep resonance in speaking - and that made a dramatic soprano being misclassified as a contra-alto, and in fact in a recording she sings really easily and heavily in A3 chest. So if biological females were taught to speak with deep resonance and low-larynx since they start talking, will they end be like this girl: ?

[alexiakk]

F0 (speaking pitch average): 161 Hz with male and chest resonance (high end about 232 Hz, low end about 83 Hz)
F0 (ah): 198 Hz, I just follow the note produced by the nurse - and the interpreter told me it's too high, but I wasn't able to go lower, so I ended up with this number.

[alexiakk]

So Amy,

Let me ask you a question: what does comfortably singing mean? Is it like, not purposely lowering your volume and larynx?
If that is the definition, my lower comfortable end is probably really close to the F0 in "ah" which is G3 (196 Hz). I have an abrupt drop of volume from A3 to G3 and requires some lowering of larynx. As for A2-G3, it is sustainable, but muffled, and can be clearly perceived as a male voice with chest resonance add-in.

So I think voice therapy is gonna be hard for me since I always spoke in low larynx, I intentionally pressed down my voice as I didn't want people to view me as a fag, and that forms a bad habit here But apparently the pitch goes way higher when I laugh (people all look at me), and my mom blamed me for being girly.

I also have some genetic tremor (as Spasmodic Dysphonia) on vocal cords and Dr. Kim suggests Botox every 3 months. This requires me to use about 5-8x of airflow and tension to speak & sing comparing to normal people - which I believe have strongly lowered my passaggio. It's sad cuz he said this is not curable - which means Botox injection is REQUIRED every three months (and life-long!) otherwise the vocal ability will be unstable 

[Jennygirl]

Definitely an Alto here, or at least I'm working on it

Thanks for the info from Dr. Kim about singing. That seems to make a great deal of sense to me now.

Also, alexia, I had particularly (extremely) long and thick vocal cords, but my mean F0 was 140hz. I think I may have had even a lower F0 and I was trying to make it sound less boomy during the consultation. My speaking F0 now is somewhere around 200-205hz talking normally (to people I know) and up to 225hz around strangers.

Perhaps my difficulty reaching a fully alto range at the top is the thickness of my vocal cords. Not that I want to mess with my voice at all, but I wonder if laser thinning of the vocal membrane is something Dr. Kim will add to the procedure in future years. My hunch is  that he's already looked into it and doesn't do it for some reason... Maybe it is hard to guarantee a symmetrical outcome.

[AmyBerlin]

Dear Alexia,

wow, this is a lot of information to reply to. To me your range doesn't read masculine at all, not in the slightest. To give you my figures:

lowest possible note: D2, lowest comfortable note E2, about 3 octaves of comfortably connected voice from there, with a transition area E4-G4 (roughly), highest comfortable note F5, highest possible note G#5. That's quite a difference to yours. You see, for me C6 is totally out of range. And my lowest, say, fifth is totally out of range for you.

At the low end, a tenor needs to have a C3 at the least, which is already in the uncomfortable/very soft zone for you. So your range is definitely much higher than a tenor's. So in my opinion, you don't need pitch-raising surgery at all, but rather a good voice instructor that will teach you proper resonance and support and you'll be good to go.

And of course speaking/singing habits directly influence range. Not all resonances or even vowels are obtainable at all pitches. The girl singing "Happy Birthday" was just making use of Overdrive (aka male resonance) in her lower register, which is perfectly permissible. Rock singers like Melissa Etheridge do it all the time.

You said your F0 speaking was 161 Hz. That's an E3. You must have REALLY pressed it down. And bottoming out another octave lower... something's wrong here. This all doesn't make sense to me. You said that your voice starts thinning out below A3/G3. Then it doesn't make sense at all that you should have spoken at an E3.

And by "comfortably hitting" I mean "not with outrageous amounts of support" or "not only at high/low volumes". The range that's always there, no matter the circumstances. Of course you'll have to modify resonance and larynx position over a 3-or-so octave range.

Hope this helps,

Amy

[alexiakk]

Definitely an Alto here, or at least I'm working on it

Thanks for the info from Dr. Kim about singing. That seems to make a great deal of sense to me now.

Also, alexia, I had particularly (extremely) long and thick vocal cords, but my mean F0 was 140hz. I think I may have had even a lower F0 and I was trying to make it sound less boomy during the consultation. My speaking F0 now is somewhere around 200-205hz talking normally (to people I know) and up to 225hz around strangers.

Perhaps my difficulty reaching a fully alto range at the top is the thickness of my vocal cords. Not that I want to mess with my voice at all, but I wonder if laser thinning of the vocal membrane is something Dr. Kim will add to the procedure in future years. My hunch is  that he's already looked into it and doesn't do it for some reason... Maybe it is hard to guarantee a symmetrical outcome.

Thanks Jenny for replying

According to previous tutorial link provided by Lena, I think the tracheal shave indeed helps instead of lowering your voice!

One information I heard from Dr. Kim is that besides the difference in "size" of the folds, the rigidness of that portion is also a factor influencing one's voice. So you might lose some power in holding notes, but that's more alike a biological female's part (influencing agility)

Mine is not visible, even when I raise my head there's almost nothing there - but I think there indeed is something there! Perhaps myself have no conscious that the muscle is stiffer and less agile so that it always sounds masculine.

[alexiakk]

Dear Alexia,

wow, this is a lot of information to reply to. To me your range doesn't read masculine at all, not in the slightest. To give you my figures:

lowest possible note: D2, lowest comfortable note E2, about 3 octaves of comfortably connected voice from there, with a transition area E4-G4 (roughly), highest comfortable note F5, highest possible note G#5. That's quite a difference to yours. You see, for me C6 is totally out of range. And my lowest, say, fifth is totally out of range for you.

At the low end, a tenor needs to have a C3 at the least, which is already in the uncomfortable/very soft zone for you. So your range is definitely much higher than a tenor's. So in my opinion, you don't need pitch-raising surgery at all, but rather a good voice instructor that will teach you proper resonance and support and you'll be good to go.

And of course speaking/singing habits directly influence range. Not all resonances or even vowels are obtainable at all pitches. The girl singing "Happy Birthday" was just making use of Overdrive (aka male resonance) in her lower register, which is perfectly permissible. Rock singers like Melissa Etheridge do it all the time.

You said your F0 speaking was 161 Hz. That's an E3. You must have REALLY pressed it down. And bottoming out another octave lower... something's wrong here. This all doesn't make sense to me. You said that your voice starts thinning out below A3/G3. Then it doesn't make sense at all that you should have spoken at an E3.

And by "comfortably hitting" I mean "not with outrageous amounts of support" or "not only at high/low volumes". The range that's always there, no matter the circumstances. Of course you'll have to modify resonance and larynx position over a 3-or-so octave range.

Hope this helps,

Amy

Thanks for the reply, Amy!

"You said your F0 speaking was 161 Hz. That's an E3. You must have REALLY pressed it down. And bottoming out another octave lower... something's wrong here. This all doesn't make sense to me. You said that your voice starts thinning out below A3/G3. Then it doesn't make sense at all that you should have spoken at an E3."

I feel very true for this, and I feel very creepy when speaking in that way. When I speak like this I have two feelings: 1. people often asks me "what was I saying" and 2. I can't make conversations smoothly, I have to breath very fast and cut a sentence into several halves.

I have a really loud voice (I think this is probably the result I get from adapting genetic tremor), so it's not reasonable for people to ask "what I was saying". But I also feel that when I tried to speak on A3, my voice is way way too loud. Again, it's probably because of tremor, but I have no idea; I'm gonna see what happens after Botox injection. According to Dr. Kim, people with tremor tend to use very low voice or very high voice (that will be falsetto), and I have no feeling that I'm using upper part of my voice at all.

E2 is way beyond my range  Even with vocal fry. I'm still not clear on it because it seems like I have to use way more airflow and forces on everything so nothing's truly comfortable 

For example, is the low note (D3) Christina sings here:   considered comfortable? I might get an idea from this.

[Jennygirl]

Your welcome I would consider myself very lucky if I were you. The only thing you need to worry about is isolating and strengthening the muscles that hold your larynx up and back... creating a female resonance to match your already female-sized vocal cords. Lena's page on resonance is an amazing resource, if I would have had it in the beginning I probably would have figured it out much sooner.

Thanks again Lena

I had success with a few of Kathe Perez' mp3s early on that had some decent resonance exercises. The thing that stuck with me was trying to sound like kermit the frog. I used the kermit the frog throat position as a way of weightlifting with my larynx- or something like that. It was a quick way to get warmed up at least.

You are definitely very lucky. As soon as you train your larynx, your voice will sound undeniably female. Getting used to it and integrating it is indeed the hardest part. Heck that's the whole reason I had this surgery (voice integration). But with the range you have now, you should consider yourself an incredibly lucky person. Dr. Kim is right! Even just the slightest bit of resonance modification and female sounding inflection will go a long way for you.

Keep re-reading Lena's page And keep us updated on the resonance stuff. I would love to hear your voice!

[alexiakk]

Definitely an Alto here, or at least I'm working on it

Thanks for the info from Dr. Kim about singing. That seems to make a great deal of sense to me now.

Also, alexia, I had particularly (extremely) long and thick vocal cords, but my mean F0 was 140hz. I think I may have had even a lower F0 and I was trying to make it sound less boomy during the consultation. My speaking F0 now is somewhere around 200-205hz talking normally (to people I know) and up to 225hz around strangers.

Perhaps my difficulty reaching a fully alto range at the top is the thickness of my vocal cords. Not that I want to mess with my voice at all, but I wonder if laser thinning of the vocal membrane is something Dr. Kim will add to the procedure in future years. My hunch is  that he's already looked into it and doesn't do it for some reason... Maybe it is hard to guarantee a symmetrical outcome.

Dear Jenny,

Laser thinning out is definitely dangerous as vocal cords are not just soft tissues 

I don't think Dr. Kim will perform this. I did some researches on tremor and found out that one surgical treatment for it is "laser thinning out vocal membrane", but it has extremely unpredictable complications (some people even lose their voices!!) - I guess that's why Dr. Kim, and even Dr. Thomas uses Botox only for tremor.

[alexiakk]

Your welcome I would consider myself very lucky if I were you. The only thing you need to worry about is isolating and strengthening the muscles that hold your larynx up and back... creating a female resonance to match your already female-sized vocal cords. Lena's page on resonance is an amazing resource, if I would have had it in the beginning I probably would have figured it out much sooner.

Thanks again Lena

I had success with a few of Kathe Perez' mp3s early on that had some decent resonance exercises. The thing that stuck with me was trying to sound like kermit the frog. I used the kermit the frog throat position as a way of weightlifting with my larynx- or something like that. It was a quick way to get warmed up at least.

You are definitely very lucky. As soon as you train your larynx, your voice will sound undeniably female. Getting used to it and integrating it is indeed the hardest part. Heck that's the whole reason I had this surgery (voice integration). But with the range you have now, you should consider yourself an incredibly lucky person. Dr. Kim is right! Even just the slightest bit of resonance modification and female sounding inflection will go a long way for you.

Keep re-reading Lena's page And keep us updated on the resonance stuff. I would love to hear your voice!

I feel so happy if even you say this 
I'm definitely gonna try Kathe Perez's MP3, I think it will be useful, and I probably don't have to raise my larynx so much.

[Jennygirl]

Dear Jenny,

Laser thinning out is definitely dangerous as vocal cords are not just soft tissues 

I don't think Dr. Kim will perform this. I did some researches on tremor and found out that one surgical treatment for it is "laser thinning out vocal membrane", but it has extremely unpredictable complications (some people even lose their voices!!) - I guess that's why Dr. Kim, and even Dr. Thomas uses Botox only for tremor.

Yeah I watched a video of the laser on vocal cords one time (I can't seem to find it these days) and it scared the crap out of me. It's hard to watch. I think it was from a place in New York.

I know Dr. Thomas does do lasering of the vocal cords because I have seen and read about a few patients of his that went back for "laser retuning" or something. I'm pretty sure he even mentions it on the website as a revisionary type of thing. It is no wonder his whole VFS procedure is so risky, even the revisions themselves are risky.

I feel so happy if even you say this 
I'm definitely gonna try Kathe Perez's MP3, I think it will be useful, and I probably don't have to raise my larynx so much.

Good! You should be happy! Yeah I don't think it will be hard for you at all. Also I have a hunch that the vocal tremor might resolve once you start talking within the range which your voice is built

[anjaq]

I am not sure I would want to recommend laser treatments. I heard that it can increase pitch by 2 semitones and make the voice less "boomy", but it causes some scarring on the vocal chords which means that the voice could become a bit hoarse or raspy. But I am no expert in that. Someone I know was suggested this as a minimally invasive treatment by Dr Thomas actually, so he does that, but she did not think it was worth it.

alex, I would be so happy, if I were you. Only bugger that maybe you could have found out about this before you went through all the trouble of saving up money and organizing a trip to Korea - But then again, Seoul certainly is a interesting place for a short vacation. From how it sounds to me you did not really get a drop in voice in puberty, so you are very lucky. But you learned how to speak in a lowered and maculine sounding voice, in part deliberatly. On the upside this basically just means you have to unlearn these patterns and you will be naturally female sounding. On the downside it means that you probably still would need some voice therapy. Maybe you dont even have to do all the things that are done in trans-specific voice training but just learn how to use your voice in a physiological (natural, fitting to your larynx biology) way. This is something a lot of people are doing in voice therapy. You can certainly try Lenas suggestion or youtube.search for the CandiFla videos or even check out the old Melanie Anne Phillips voice lessons. They all operate on the concept of using the larynx muscles differently so that the larynx moves up a bit. A common way to do this is to go into that falsetto range where the male resonance goes away, you described this already and then keep the resonance and lower the voice again. Also relaxing the jaw seems to work great. But I think the best would be you take some of the money you wanted to spend on Dr Kim and get a good voice therapist and book a couple of lessons with her and you probably will be fine. What may be needed are some additional lessons or hours on liberating other parts of the voice like intonation, melody and such - people regarded as males are trained to speak in a different way and that also has to be unlearned. Again a speech therapist may help there, though maybe for that it would be beneficial to have one with gender related experiences.
So dont be sad that Dr Kim could not help, be happy that he did not need to help

Bummer about the trmor though - what does it result in, what does it do to your voice? Is it really having a negative effect that much and would that be alleviated with Botox? He told me I have a tremor too in the remote consultation, but I think almost all who went to him had such a tremor and got botox after VFS - I think it is also why the voices change still abit between the official 2 months post op videos and 6 months, as the botox wears off and some aspects of the voice that were softened are returning. But would botox not also cause a loss in loudness and intensity of the voice?

Maybe vocal termour can also be somehow be managed with voice training?

Anyways I am again glad that Dr Kim seems to be rather honest - he did not just take the money and do a surgery but aimed to have the best result for the people who come to him. Thats good. He basically told me to not have the VFS at this time due to some voice issues as well, so I get the feeling he will really only do the procedure if he is convinced it will be beneficial and work out.

Greetings

[alexiakk]

I am not sure I would want to recommend laser treatments. I heard that it can increase pitch by 2 semitones and make the voice less "boomy", but it causes some scarring on the vocal chords which means that the voice could become a bit hoarse or raspy. But I am no expert in that. Someone I know was suggested this as a minimally invasive treatment by Dr Thomas actually, so he does that, but she did not think it was worth it.

alex, I would be so happy, if I were you. Only bugger that maybe you could have found out about this before you went through all the trouble of saving up money and organizing a trip to Korea - But then again, Seoul certainly is a interesting place for a short vacation. From how it sounds to me you did not really get a drop in voice in puberty, so you are very lucky. But you learned how to speak in a lowered and maculine sounding voice, in part deliberatly. On the upside this basically just means you have to unlearn these patterns and you will be naturally female sounding. On the downside it means that you probably still would need some voice therapy. Maybe you dont even have to do all the things that are done in trans-specific voice training but just learn how to use your voice in a physiological (natural, fitting to your larynx biology) way. This is something a lot of people are doing in voice therapy. You can certainly try Lenas suggestion or youtube.search for the CandiFla videos or even check out the old Melanie Anne Phillips voice lessons. They all operate on the concept of using the larynx muscles differently so that the larynx moves up a bit. A common way to do this is to go into that falsetto range where the male resonance goes away, you described this already and then keep the resonance and lower the voice again. Also relaxing the jaw seems to work great. But I think the best would be you take some of the money you wanted to spend on Dr Kim and get a good voice therapist and book a couple of lessons with her and you probably will be fine. What may be needed are some additional lessons or hours on liberating other parts of the voice like intonation, melody and such - people regarded as males are trained to speak in a different way and that also has to be unlearned. Again a speech therapist may help there, though maybe for that it would be beneficial to have one with gender related experiences.
So dont be sad that Dr Kim could not help, be happy that he did not need to help

Bummer about the trmor though - what does it result in, what does it do to your voice? Is it really having a negative effect that much and would that be alleviated with Botox? He told me I have a tremor too in the remote consultation, but I think almost all who went to him had such a tremor and got botox after VFS - I think it is also why the voices change still abit between the official 2 months post op videos and 6 months, as the botox wears off and some aspects of the voice that were softened are returning. But would botox not also cause a loss in loudness and intensity of the voice?

Maybe vocal termour can also be somehow be managed with voice training?

Anyways I am again glad that Dr Kim seems to be rather honest - he did not just take the money and do a surgery but aimed to have the best result for the people who come to him. Thats good. He basically told me to not have the VFS at this time due to some voice issues as well, so I get the feeling he will really only do the procedure if he is convinced it will be beneficial and work out.

Greetings

Vocal therapy is definitely a need in my case I think, and it's not like my voice didn't drop in puberty, even female's voice will drop a bit (for example, pre-puberty's folds are only half sized! so even if a little boy speaking in male resonance it still sounds high-pitched) Also I feel like my larynx did become rigid - perhaps the size and cavity didn't grow a lot.

For tremor - it's not the kind that some of you experienced because of pro-longed time speaking in falsetto. Mine is more like genetics - aka having it since I was born. When I was young this seems to be a plus because in most cases "treble" do not have vibrato, and this kind of tremor gave me some kind of "natural vibrato" when I was a kid. Now adding in the vibrato in adult, it's just too much for the cords itself I guess.

I don't think Botox is a bad thing to vocal folds actually. It's rather popular because it expands one's vocal folds ability to maximum (like clearer and cleaner, and more stable, less shaky) Intensity is probably not the work of vocal folds I guess; I think it's more about resonance and space cavity.

Tremor of my kind is hardly treatable from vocal training because it's more related to the neuron and muscles, and even brain itself. So it's not like something you could learn easily. It's possible, but only when "muscle relax" becomes the patient's reflex action according to Dr. Kim.

[Jenny87]

Hi everyone and thank you very much Jennygirl for making this thread

I'm new to these forums after lurking for a long time, I'll have to go and post in introductions after this .

I've read through this thread a lot as I'm seriously considering going out to Yeson. If its ok I'd like to tell you what I have in mind and see if I'm making any mistakes as my doctor isn't very keen on the idea of traveling to Korea for voice surgery . I've been in contact with Yeson and am so excited by the prospect of their procedure and what it could do for my quality of life! I can not wait to book and confirm dates with them more than anything but Im not sure if my excitement is getting in the way of making the best decision.

To put it simply my voice really gets to me, I feel extremely uncomfortable when having to speak and like many others here I don't want to have to even think about the sounds I make. I plan on going out to Korea in June and by that point I will have been on HRT for 4 months. I'm 26 and in the UK, currently part time and just legally changed my name this afternoon

I haven't yet had any formal voice coaching. Do you think this may be too soon? Should I have my vocal range tested somewhere before, is that what most people do?

Sorry I've only come here with questions but when I go out I promise i'll give people all the information they want and as many updates as are asked for

Thank you to everyone in this thread, all the information is so wonderful

Jennifer

[Jennygirl]

Jenny87- welcome to the forums first of all

I'm super glad you have found this thread to be useful! That is why it's here after all!

As far as your own situation, I would definitely recommend getting your voice to a point where you are at least semi-happy with it in private before having this surgery. The keyword here is practice! Practice in the car, at home, or anywhere you feel safe to be making noises that might seem a little uncomfortable at first.

I did most of my practice in the car to and from work

Mostly what you need to work on for a smooth transition after having this surgery is feminine inflection, word choice, and resonance. Also make sure not to over-practice as this can lead to damage of the vocal tissues which is not what you want before this surgery. So, if at any point you feel strained or hoarse, immediately stop practice and come back to it later. Your voice will get stronger, just need to keep at it!

If you have any more questions feel free to post them here or wherever in the voice therapy forum. And once again welcome to Susan's! Congrats on de-lurking

[Jenny87]

Thanks very much for the welcome Jenny

I'm going to get working on my voice basically right now! Hopefully I can get it to a point where I'm not terrified of it by June and I'll book some dates with Yeson in the next couple of weeks depending on how I start to feel :p. I like the idea of practicing in the car, I think I'll do that too .

[Lena from Kiev]

I'm definitely gonna try Kathe Perez's MP3, I think it will be useful, and I probably don't have to raise my larynx so much.

You are resisting against raising larynx. Why?

[alexiakk]

You are resisting against raising larynx. Why?

Not really, but raising it "too much" will result in uncomfortable and thus hard to make it as natural habit right?

[Lena from Kiev]

but raising it "too much" will result in uncomfortable and thus hard to make it as natural habit right?

It's necessary for female voice.