Yeson voice feminization surgery

[LittleMarmaid]

Haha that particular attempt at sounding like my old voice didn't really work - I found some old recordings actually:
Right before the surgery, tired: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0a8yakZNwoB
Three weeks after the surgery, this is why I was disappointed: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1D6FdqlEhpv
Three months after the surgery, sounds okay but could sound better: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1b1l3IIdtkN
Listening to these again really made me appreciate that I should've got some guidance on my voice a lot sooner but I was a really depressed mess throughout 2013 so it didn't happen.
I was reading another woman's blog of her experience at yeson, she had surgery a week or two ago, apparently they give a cough suppressant now. I know that the coughing stretched things BUT we did confirm that my vocal chords had healed up normally (as far as anyone could tell) and that in combination with the botox most likely caused the lackluster pitch increase. Since then though, the botox has long since worn off and my vocal chords have healed up so I can appreciate that my pitch did go up, so I'm slowly getting over my issues with the surgery).

Yes I asked help to a speech therapist but he told me that exercise will help but the pitch increase after 3 month is quite unlikely. I heard your voice records and I can find the difference between the before and after when you was complaining, then there is no difference in term of picht between the first after and your final result, just a different skill in the way you use your voice

[ImagineKate]

The voice is exactly the same, I was not expecting an huge results as other girls shown on youtube but at least a noticiable difference. I'd like to write a specific post about my experience at Ye-son Voice Center but I found that they are not Transgender oriented in their standard of care, they are not genuinely interested in Transgender community

Same result as your natural or trained voice?

[LittleMarmaid]

Same result as your natural or trained voice?

I think trained 'cause I transitioned many years ago and my voice wasn't completely male, was like a female with deep voice

[kwala]

I think trained 'cause I transitioned many years ago and my voice wasn't completely male, was like a female with deep voice

So sorry about that.  How long has it been since the procedure was done?

[ImagineKate]

Haha that particular attempt at sounding like my old voice didn't really work - I found some old recordings actually:
Right before the surgery, tired: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0a8yakZNwoB
Three weeks after the surgery, this is why I was disappointed: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1D6FdqlEhpv
Three months after the surgery, sounds okay but could sound better: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1b1l3IIdtkN
Listening to these again really made me appreciate that I should've got some guidance on my voice a lot sooner but I was a really depressed mess throughout 2013 so it didn't happen.

I was reading another woman's blog of her experience at yeson, she had surgery a week or two ago, apparently they give a cough suppressant now. I know that the coughing stretched things BUT we did confirm that my vocal chords had healed up normally (as far as anyone could tell) and that in combination with the botox most likely caused the lackluster pitch increase. Since then though, the botox has long since worn off and my vocal chords have healed up so I can appreciate that my pitch did go up, so I'm slowly getting over my issues with the surgery.

For future reference, if someone is upset about their result from a voice surgery, please tell them to go see a speech therapist rather than telling them they screwed up.
Also I found out last year that a bad coughing fit can make my pitch drop temporarily, but it does go back up (for now haha).

Hey voodle,

Your month 2 sounds almost like that lady from BBC radio 5 i used to listen to (Victoria Pendleton?) or one of the news readers on the world service. There is still some surgical laryngitis I can detect though.

Month 3 sounds pretty good.

Your pre voice actually sounds feminine, but I can detect a bit of male resonance in it.

[LittleMarmaid]

So sorry about that.  How long has it been since the procedure was done?

3 Months

[ReDucks]

Just a couple comments.  First of all, while we all love to hear great results on YouTube and here, I  think that those are mostly the good days.  Everyone has ups and downs in their recovery, and I think we all need to consider the things that are worthy of being posted are most likely to be the very best recordings.  Maybe even a bit forced into sounding good, beyond the day-to-day habitual voice.

Secondly, in my consultations with Yeson, both before I was accepted for surgery and afterward, Yeson was very clear that it would take as long as a year to hear the final results.  Dr. Kim drew out a progression of pitch where for the first 2 to 6 months, the voice would be similar to my old voice, and then the pitch would increase over a period of 1-2 months, and sustain at the new higher pitch.  This was just for pitch.  If we don't follow the exercises and get voice therapy, the impression of female or male won't necessarily change - it is not enough to have a higher pitch, we also need to learn to speak without resonance and in a way that is more female than male to get the best results possible.  So as far as pitch vs. training, I don't know of anyone, including Jennygirl who has been post op 1 year.  I would love to hear their results when they do get to their fully healed pitch level, they already sound great from a prosody / resonance perspective (IMHO).

I'm still a week from speaking short conversations but have been able to speak a couple words a day for the past 2 weeks, and frankly, I sound like I have a cold.  Too soon to draw any conclusions at all.  I'll try to record something when I hit 1 month, without 'prettying it up', so people can hear what it sounds like after a month.

Hang in there everyone, stick with the program and you'll never have to look back after a year and wonder if you cheated yourself from your best results. 

[ImagineKate]

So as far as pitch vs. training, I don't know of anyone, including Jennygirl who has been post op 1 year. 

Jenny and a few others are post op 1 year and more. They got their surgeries in 2013.

[ReDucks]

Jenny and a few others are post op 1 year and more. They got their surgeries in 2013.

Duh, I didn't realize I was off, I was going by their post surgery videos, is anyone posting post 1 year results?

[LittleMarmaid]

Just a couple comments.  First of all, while we all love to hear great results on YouTube and here, I  think that those are mostly the good days.  Everyone has ups and downs in their recovery, and I think we all need to consider the things that are worthy of being posted are most likely to be the very best recordings.  Maybe even a bit forced into sounding good, beyond the day-to-day habitual voice.

Secondly, in my consultations with Yeson, both before I was accepted for surgery and afterward, Yeson was very clear that it would take as long as a year to hear the final results.  Dr. Kim drew out a progression of pitch where for the first 2 to 6 months, the voice would be similar to my old voice, and then the pitch would increase over a period of 1-2 months, and sustain at the new higher pitch.  This was just for pitch.  If we don't follow the exercises and get voice therapy, the impression of female or male won't necessarily change - it is not enough to have a higher pitch, we also need to learn to speak without resonance and in a way that is more female than male to get the best results possible.  So as far as pitch vs. training, I don't know of anyone, including Jennygirl who has been post op 1 year.  I would love to hear their results when they do get to their fully healed pitch level, they already sound great from a prosody / resonance perspective (IMHO).

I'm still a week from speaking short conversations but have been able to speak a couple words a day for the past 2 weeks, and frankly, I sound like I have a cold.  Too soon to draw any conclusions at all.  I'll try to record something when I hit 1 month, without 'prettying it up', so people can hear what it sounds like after a month.

Hang in there everyone, stick with the program and you'll never have to look back after a year and wonder if you cheated yourself from your best results.

I am doing my post op program, exercise and voice tranining as Yeson direction. I just had the need to say my opinion and experience not only in term of results. If it is not welcome that's fine. I guess the forum mission is to be helpfull sharing both positive and negative experience

[ImagineKate]

What I have seen is that girls who already have a trained voice are underwhelmed by the changes, that it's not enough. That is understandable, because they are already close to what the surgery will give them.

[ReDucks]

I am doing my post op program, exercise and voice tranining as Yeson direction. I just had the need to say my opinion and experience not only in term of results. If it is not welcome that's fine. I guess the forum mission is to be helpfull sharing both positive and negative experience

I'm sorry if you felt singled out by my response, it wasn't directed only at you but as a general comment.  I think both positive and negative comments should be offered, it is how people will get educated about these types of things.  That said, I think negative comments demand more context so that we can figure out if the negative is something that might apply to us.  For example, you said that your speech therapist told you that your pitch won't get any higher after 3 months.  What is that therapist's basis for saying that?  Is it based on their experience with this surgery or from some other surgery?  I only ask because it is not what the Dr. told me, and he has done many of these surgeries over the past 10 years of experience and seen and followed up with many trans women who had the surgery.

I am sorry to hear you didn't have a good personal experience, though I did enjoy my time there, and found them all very respectful, I can't say what happened in your case. 

[ReDucks]

...then there is no difference in term of picht between the first after and your final result, just a different skill in the way you use your voice

Voodle, I played your 3 month and 3 week at the same time and there is quite a difference in pitch when you hear them together!  Great results so far.  I can't wait to hear how things go in the future

[voodle]

Voodle, I played your 3 month and 3 week at the same time and there is quite a difference in pitch when you hear them together!  Great results so far.  I can't wait to hear how things go in the future

Here's nearly 2 years on (may 13 > feb 15), Also I saw a speech therapist and now it sounds possibly even better? Sort of

[anjaq]

Mermaid - that sounds like you are really disappointed. I am sure your opinion and experiences are welcome here, maybe open a new thread for them , this one is kind of getting really long and mixed - maybe you can include older recordings in natural or untrained and trained voice for comparison? What I heard is that if people have a good trained voice before VFS, there is a tendency that the change is not as large as one might hope for, but the way the voice is made is different. Easier, More natural. So especially Sarah and Amy had that experience, the voice itself from the outside did not change all that much, but it was just a lot easier to make that voice, it was no longer feeling like faking but just natural. Did you not experience anything like that?
I hope you do not get discouraged to post more about what bugs you about the voice. All kinds of stuff play a role there  - pitch being one thing and many other modifyers are in it as well. So maybe you canb describe some more. I know many who have done the surgery and love it are a bit rough if someone says that it did not work (implying that Dr Kim is doing not that good work), but I noticed in the past that often there are explanations besides the skill of the Doctor that exlain why someone is unhappy with the result or still perceived as male.
The way I see it is the surgery makes some thing seasier by giving us some tools to work with, a modyfied instrument to play, but if we modded our own instrument a lot before, it may not seem like much of an improvement and if we dont know how to play it right, the new instrument does not help much either.

I am glad I have a good voice therapist at hand who will start with me right when it is allowed to. I now just need all your best wishes to get rid of my bronchitis until the beginning of next week, because otherwise I would have to cancel the trip to Seoul planned for the end of next week .

[Rachelicious]

The way I see it is the surgery makes some thing seasier by giving us some tools to work with, a modyfied instrument to play, but if we modded our own instrument a lot before, it may not seem like much of an improvement and if we dont know how to play it right, the new instrument does not help much either.

I am glad I have a good voice therapist at hand who will start with me right when it is allowed to. I now just need all your best wishes to get rid of my bronchitis until the beginning of next week, because otherwise I would have to cancel the trip to Seoul planned for the end of next week .

Good luck Anja! Hope your throat eases up soon.

The idea of this surgery is that your voice / instrument should be female-sounding in pitch (and to some extent, resonance, but that's largely up to the user) across all or nearly all of your range - as opposed to pre-op, where you have a great portion of your range that cannot be used.

What this means is, when you speak, it should "feel like" you're using the old part of your voice that sounded bad, except that it will sound fine - like using the same fingerings going from a tenor sax to an alto sax.

If you listen to J-Mi's recent videos for instance, I really don't believe Dr. Kim took her from 135hz to 270hz. What I believe we're hearing is her being used to using the upper register of her instrument, and not using the full range, which is perhaps why she sounds a bit strained / constrained in her upper register around D3-G3. Her 2-month, for instance, sounds like a completely different instrument to get used to from her first, and current.

Regarding outcomes, the voice is not really "final" until 1 year, and in that time it's changing. One really can't expect every single person to give herself exemplary healing conditions and immediately know exactly how to use their new voice as intended, and you can reasonably expect to hear the outcomes of that in this now overwhelmingly huge thread.

And naturally, the vast majority of those dissatisfied are going to blame the surgeon, chance, etc, because that's what people do when accustomed to living in a world of in-and-out data and quick fixes that does not encourage training yourself or thinking for yourself.

[anjaq]

I was at the Berlin clinic for a consultation last fall. It was a bit hard to really get good info there, but they said their success rate in glottoplasty is 30% - measured exclusively by the satisfaction of the patients. 30% said it was worse and the rest was ok, not much change. Now for one thing, thats a horrible rate and another reason to go to Yeson instead, but what puzzled me was how this can be - if you tie up the vocal chords, the lowest possible pitch HAS to increase unless you really harm something else. The Prof there hinted towards that the pitch increase actually really doe shappen. The old studies of the clinic also show that there is almost always a significant increase in pitch (the Gross et al paper). So adding the experiences from the people in this forum and in the Yeson group on facebook, my conclusion was that besides the possibility of harming the voice due to the surgery - which certainy is part of why the stats in Berlin are so bad - if the voice gets weak, breathy, hoarse, people will of course describe it as unsatisfactory - a main reason why people are not satisfied with the voice may well be the expectations they had about it.
Many go there with the expectation that their boomy bass male voice will be made into a female sounding voice , which usually does not happen with surgery alone, it always takes additional training and they dont like that or see it as a flaw of the surgery. Another group seems to be the ones who did voice training, have a good feminine voice and expect somehow that the voice gets even more feminine with surgery, which also does not happen as it will just make using the feminine voice easier. The ones most satisfied seem to be the ones who had a feminine trained voice before, but had a hard time to keep it up, strained while doing so, were sad that it still had a male edge to it and that they could still accidentially drop down from it - in that case surgery helped to take away the strain, made it more natural and removed some of the male edge to it, making it more naturally feminine.

So I would never dismiss a concern or dissatisfaction of someone with a voice after VFS, but I would always look into what really happened, what were the expectations, what changed really and how does it relate to the results that can realistically be expected and the expectations of the patient.
That said, a total lack of change in pitch (especially the lowest possible pitch) or easiness to reach a feminine pitch when speaking after 3 months would worry me too. If the suture holds, which can be easily checked at a ENT with an endoscope, the only reason I can imagine is swelling of the chords which keeps the pitch low until it is gone, accordiung to Yeson this seems to take up to 6-12 months...

[kwala]

Good luck Anja! Hope your throat eases up soon.

The idea of this surgery is that your voice / instrument should be female-sounding in pitch (and to some extent, resonance, but that's largely up to the user) across all or nearly all of your range - as opposed to pre-op, where you have a great portion of your range that cannot be used.

What this means is, when you speak, it should "feel like" you're using the old part of your voice that sounded bad, except that it will sound fine - like using the same fingerings going from a tenor sax to an alto sax.

I think that this is a great analogy!  I think the idea is not so much that you gain overall range (which even most surgeons out there will tell you is false, and if anything you lose some of the lower end) but that the way those notes are created/the place they come from is altered, so it's like you are playing a different instrument.  I'll take it a bit further.  When you play a different saxophone, you can use the same fingerings and in general all of the notes will come out, but because the pitch and overtone series differs, you still have to "voice" them differently.  That means air pressure, tongue position, soft palette position, etc will have to change if you want the optimal sound and intonation.  What this means for us is that we have a new instrument that's still in the same family, but we still have adjustments to make on our own for the best possible tone quality.  Pitch is only half the battle.

Anjaq, I am sending you good health vibes!  I've been reading your posts for a long time and I know you've done your homework on this so I really hope you get to go through with this as planned

Question for those who have undergone a glottoplasty procedure.  Does your break from modal to head voice actually change, or is it more like you feel less strained and less apt to crack around the break area?

[celinemealone]

Hello everyone!
I just came back from Seoul and is on the sixth day of recovery and i have to say that my experience at Yeson is going to be something I will remember for the rest of my life, the staff Jessie and especially Dr Kim were so nice and supportive would be what I felt while i was there.

For my surgery the days before final check up was totally fine with little 1 or 2 coughs and as i saw Dr Kim again everything was onpoint, however when I was on my flight back home I had a few more of the involuntary coughs and they got abit worse when I landed as my throat was so dry. I am in that mind set now that i feel i've just ruined everything. Im soo worried. It makes me wonder what are the signs when you damage the suture?

[anjaq]

If worried, ask Jessie - As I read it many times here, the signs would be sharp pain and possibly blood coughed up.