Yeson voice feminization surgery

[mmmmm]

It does seems like most people take their bags and go home very soon after the surgery. Like 5-7 days after. I don't know, but is Seoul really such a >-bleeped-<ty place that its not worth to stay longer, maybe travel around a little, experience local cuisine, etc? It's definitely better to stay around for another week or more, and do a cheekup or two more with dr. Kim, just to make shure everything is alright before you take a long, terrible and exhausting flight towards home. It's not like everybody needs to rush back home because they go to work the next day.. So why not play a tourist safely, do the things you can do, eat the things you can eat, experience the other side of the world a little.. and take a little more time to stay around?

[anjaq]

Hmm - well most people do stay for almost 2 weeks - between arrival and departure and in the week after the surgery they do some sightseeing. I think the surgery includes only one checkup regularly, one would have to ask if they have time (and maybe want some more money) for another one. I believe however many are still a bit worried about being without speech when being a tourist. It may take away some of the fun of being there. Plus at least for me, a two week absence (from takeoff to arrival back home) is already quite some time, being off work and leaving the home and dogs alone in that time and all of this. But I guess it would be nice to put in another week, since that week is probably of flimits for being back to work anyways.

[ImagineKate]

I am only staying 9 days because I can't take that much time off work plus I have other obligations at home. But I guess if you can stay longer, go for it.

[seattlesarah]

I had the surgery on the 29th of January and stayed in Seoul a total of 9 days. I enjoyed aspects of Seoul but I couldn't wait to leave and I'll never go back just to visit. I feel like I've seen the place pretty comprehensively now and I didn't enjoy the general feel of it enough to want to experience it again. I guess you have to go to understand. I went to Tokyo for a week after and it was like I could breathe again somehow. Tokyo has a much harder to use subway system and Korean food is better than Japanese imo, but I just jived with the Japanese aesthetic and way of interacting. A lot more people there understand Engliah too so it's not as isolating.

Something I have found incredibly hard about this operation has been having to be silent. No one has talked about this much, but I have literally had mornings where I woke up crying due to dreams where people couldn't hear me and were ignoring me, and I am so frustrated so often when I can't stop someone and ask a question with my voice when they are out of reach and not looking. I feel emotionally separated from my partner and my family and really really isolated. I can't express myself in any complexity when limited to the speed with which I can type during a "conversation", and I often miss the opportunity to get to say anything at all. I wasn't prepared for the emotional toll of this aspect of the recovery.

My voice sounds low and croaky and awful as of today, but they said it would until a few weeks after the Botox shot, and that I may not see an increase in pitch until around months 4-6. Right now I just feel like I have months of >-bleeped-< ahead of me with an impassable voice when it was perfectly passable before. The end result should be better than before the op but having to go through this silenced period probably followed by a degendering period where my voice is low and I'm not supposed to do my regular "tricks" to lift it (which caused all sorts of damage to my vocal folds apparently) is really depressing and distressing. I know how to modify resonance without being breathy and straining to raise pitch but resonance alone with a 135hz voice won't cut it, and I think that's what I'm looking at at the end of the 2 month no talking period (stricter for me because of swelling that hadn't gone down enough at the 1 week mark).

[anjaq]

Dont worry too much on speaking a lower pitch for a while. For once, people already know you had surgery or some damage, so they will be gentle to you about this Also, my voice had dropped to 130 Hz average since my voice doctor here discovered I had that damage from trying too long to speak elevated and had me do voice rehab - as a result my voice is more healthy now but dropped to 130-140 Hz. I do have apparently a mostly female resonance as people tell me I should have no issue, if I mention that I want surgery they ask me "do you have pain? why would you want surgery?" - to my own amazement, the voice seems to be deep and low pitched but apparently female or androgynous enough to allow people to gender me correctly if they also see me. On the phone its a different story though, but that is bearable for a while. So dont worry, I dont think you will be outed or de-gendered from the voice, given that you obviously will have surgical laryngitis which is a good explanation that people will have in their heads about why your voice is so deep.
Bu tI certainly hope that I will not have a big drop after the surgery - if I drop to 110 Hz which is my original pitch, that definitely is according to my voice therapist below the point where she would perceive my voice still female. But for most, a small increase at least was already happening soon after.

Does it cause issues with the new voice if you do something to elevate it? I mean after all you still should be able to use your voice melody and that means going up in pitch as well, right? Or do you have to stay in a monotonous voice?

[ReDucks]

I had the surgery on the 29th of January and stayed in Seoul a total of 9 days. I enjoyed aspects of Seoul but I couldn't wait to leave and I'll never go back just to visit. I feel like I've seen the place pretty comprehensively now and I didn't enjoy the general feel of it enough to want to experience it again. I guess you have to go to understand. I went to Tokyo for a week after and it was like I could breathe again somehow. Tokyo has a much harder to use subway system and Korean food is better than Japanese imo, but I just jived with the Japanese aesthetic and way of interacting. A lot more people there understand Engliah too so it's not as isolating.

Something I have found incredibly hard about this operation has been having to be silent. No one has talked about this much, but I have literally had mornings where I woke up crying due to dreams where people couldn't hear me and were ignoring me, and I am so frustrated so often when I can't stop someone and ask a question with my voice when they are out of reach and not looking. I feel emotionally separated from my partner and my family and really really isolated. I can't express myself in any complexity when limited to the speed with which I can type during a "conversation", and I often miss the opportunity to get to say anything at all. I wasn't prepared for the emotional toll of this aspect of the recovery.

My voice sounds low and croaky and awful as of today, but they said it would until a few weeks after the Botox shot, and that I may not see an increase in pitch until around months 4-6. Right now I just feel like I have months of >-bleeped-< ahead of me with an impassable voice when it was perfectly passable before. The end result should be better than before the op but having to go through this silenced period probably followed by a degendering period where my voice is low and I'm not supposed to do my regular "tricks" to lift it (which caused all sorts of damage to my vocal folds apparently) is really depressing and distressing. I know how to modify resonance without being breathy and straining to raise pitch but resonance alone with a 135hz voice won't cut it, and I think that's what I'm looking at at the end of the 2 month no talking period (stricter for me because of swelling that hadn't gone down enough at the 1 week mark).

Stay Strong SS, you can handle it.  I was there just before you, .  I think you've hit the 'why don't you stay and sightsee' question on the head.  It is very hard to communicate even when you can use your voice... after it is nearly impossible.

I also had the Botox and had a couple miss-steps on the plane and the way home, but nothing bad happened, and now almost at my 1 month mark (where I can talk short conversations), my voice is starting to clear up but it is hoarse sounding.  I haven't spoken enough to tell if it will get worse with use, but right now my pitch is definitely higher than it was.  (You and I have the same starting place at 135Hz).  If in doubt ask Jessie, but unless you're bleeding, I wouldn't be too concerned about any damage.

The silence is also the hardest part for me.  I wake up most mornings in the midst of a dream where I am talking, and worry that I may have been talking in my sleep.  So far, I haven't been loud enough to wake up my partner so I am guessing not... either way, I tis only 3 weeks into a long journey so there is a lot of time for things to heal and get better.

I'm pulling for you, I hope it gets easier for you with time.   Have you found a voice therapist in the area yet?  PM me when you get 15 posts if you do, I haven't found anyone t-friendly who has openings so far.

Anjaq, the difference I think in speaking higher or singing after surgery is that you should do it with full voice not with the breathy squeezed 'trained' voice that many of us developed before we knew it was bad for our folds.  In that regard, our old 'tricks' won't be available for us or won't produce the same sounding voice.

[anjaq]

I think with voice rehab due to my voice damage what I still have is a bit of a breathy voice, but we worked on unlearning the squeezing already. Well. Its going to be an adventure. Worst case is , I would have to learn some new ways to make my voice sound not just high pitched but also female again :\

[ReDucks]

I think with voice rehab due to my voice damage what I still have is a bit of a breathy voice, but we worked on unlearning the squeezing already. Well. Its going to be an adventure. Worst case is , I would have to learn some new ways to make my voice sound not just high pitched but also female again :\

Anjaq, I think you have the properly trained voice that isn't going to be adversely affected by the surgery.  Dr. Kim mentioned that having proper training in advance would help achieve better results (if pitch is your goal) as it did with J-Mi.

Keeping a positive attitude really helps me get through the uncertainty.  That and drinking lots of water

[ImagineKate]

Honestly the silence is a small price to pay for me not having to worry about my voice ever again. I mean right now I can go out, pass (often without makeup) but from the time I open my mouth it's "sir" or "him." Today I walked into a fast food restaurant and proceed to order. I start talking and the cashier started to grin uncontrollably. I think I've just been clocked... Ugh. At least I didn't get sir.

But yeah I can get how it is stressful not being able to talk. But I keep my eyes on the prize,

[anjaq]

I am not even sure it will be that hard. The worst might be among friends since I might forget myself there. But sometimes i have rather silent days anyways and just dont talk a lot. Either if I am in that kind of mood or if I am very self conscious that day about my voice and dont want to use it anyways a lot. My worries are way way more about coughing and sneezing since I do both rather uncontrolled - And me having a bronchitis right now, 10 days pre op does not really help boost my confidence that I can make it without a cough for 2 weeks.

[Wynternight]

I honestly can't wait for a month of silence. I may be weird but I love silence and not talking. I don't think it will bother me too much.

[ImagineKate]

Yeah coughing and sneezing are a problem. I'm more worried about the kids doing something and I can't talk to them. My son especially doesn't listen to anyone but me. He totally tunes out his mom. His teachers write me notes every week. We are practicing though as I know 2 months of silence is not going to be easy.

[ReDucks]

For me the protocol was one week of silence after surgery then 3 more weeks of only one or two words a day, then at 1 month post-op short conversations of a few sentences, then at 2 months the exercises start and you can speak a normal amount.  Coughing and sneezing shouldn't be a big problem if you resist the urge to vocalize during them, but having cold symptoms before surgery is one of the things that I think they will not accept.  Anjaq my thoughts are with you for full healing.

[seattlesarah]

Thanks ReDucks and Anjaq for the reassurance. I haven't started looking for a voice therapist yet ReDucks, I have to organise moving house and getting some work done on my PhD right now so I am super busy.

But I have amazing news! I just had to get some reassurance so even though I'm not even 3 weeks post-op, I recorded myself saying a few words (not many, softly, and I'm resting again for another week now). My unmodified, speaking as nature allows me voice is now at the same pitch level as my old "trained" voice when I was relaxed and around people I knew well and had let it drop a bit. This is a pitch increase of my unmodified voice of 37 Hz in just 3 weeks! And that's less than 2 weeks after the botox injection.

It sounded like Barry White after smoking for 50 years just a few days ago when I accidentally said a few words so I'm enormously relieved. I should get the standard 75Hz increase so the operation has worked.

[voodle]

Haha it's weird to think how much I must have screwed things up with coughing since initially I only went up a few hz and you've already got a nearly 40hz pitch increase, that's great I suspect my lack of trained voice had a big effect on that though - one thing I'm noticing is that at lower pitches, the surgery doesn't make a lot of difference, but it makes higher pitches much more easily possible than they were before the surgery and they sound better.
I don't like sharing them but I have some early videos of my voice just about a week after the surgery and I sounded pretty similar to your first concerned post, it improves quite quickly though and it's mostly the effect of the botox.
It's crazy to think I did actually have a good result - I went to a group speech therapy session the other day and I felt so bad, it was like I was wasting everyone else's time because my voice is actually already there :/ (although I do think it still has room for improvement). The speech therapist kinda did that on purpose.

edit: daaaamn, I mean comparatively I did get a rubbish result haha, girls having the surgery now are getting amazing results almost immediately after the surgery compared to what Yeson used to achieve?
haha aaand now I'm in a bad mood again, hooray! my untrained voice still drops to 130hz (160hz average) while my trained voice is more like 190hz minimum (250hz average). hmmmmm
Maybe I should just move on and not visit voice surgery threads again, all it does is depress me with the realisation of how hard everything was and how not great my result is.

edit more: idk, I'm being stupid again, this surgery doesn't (in my case) specifically raise pitch, it does however make it easier to make higher pitches and sound good at those pitches, so I should go to bed.

[kwala]

Haha it's weird to think how much I must have screwed things up with coughing since initially I only went up a few hz and you've already got a nearly 40hz pitch increase, that's great I suspect my lack of trained voice had a big effect on that though - one thing I'm noticing is that at lower pitches, the surgery doesn't make a lot of difference, but it makes higher pitches much more easily possible than they were before the surgery and they sound better.
I don't like sharing them but I have some early videos of my voice just about a week after the surgery and I sounded pretty similar to your first concerned post, it improves quite quickly though and it's mostly the effect of the botox.
It's crazy to think I did actually have a good result - I went to a group speech therapy session the other day and I felt so bad, it was like I was wasting everyone else's time because my voice is actually already there :/ (although I do think it still has room for improvement). The speech therapist kinda did that on purpose.

edit: daaaamn, I mean comparatively I did get a rubbish result haha, girls having the surgery now are getting amazing results almost immediately after the surgery compared to what Yeson used to achieve?
haha aaand now I'm in a bad mood again, hooray! my untrained voice still drops to 130hz (160hz average) while my trained voice is more like 190hz minimum (250hz average). hmmmmm
Maybe I should just move on and not visit voice surgery threads again, all it does is depress me with the realisation of how hard everything was and how not great my result is.

edit more: idk, I'm being stupid again, this surgery doesn't (in my case) specifically raise pitch, it does however make it easier to make higher pitches and sound good at those pitches, so I should go to bed.

Voodle, dear, your voice sounds WONDERFUL and everyone who has heard it here thinks so.  Remember that everyone, regardless of gender, has a unique voice in terms of quality and pitch so I wouldn't get too hung up on comparing your results with others.  Your voice sounds great to me, and unmistakably feminine even when you speak in your "untrained register."  There may be a few little quirks that bother you and I'm sure that the therapist can help you with whatever those may be, but to the rest of us, it already sounds amazing.  If I undergo this surgery and have an end result like yours it I will consider it 100% successful .

[ElleA]

Hi Seattlesarah, what date did you have yours done, mine was on Feb 3rd so we must have been in Seoul at the same time. I haven't been game enough to say anything so far but the one accidental word I did say was the same as you say, at my trained pitch which is an awesome outcome for me. I am still hopeful that It will get better from here but even if it didn't change any further I would be pretty happy.

[Rachelicious]

Please get it out of your head that "being able to" hit 130hz is weird, it's just going to sideline people into your myopic and idealised perspective of your voice that, honestly, goes beyond any gender cues perceptible to others.

This is voice feminization surgery. I know voice frequences and I can tell you it is far from uncommon for a woman's speaking range to extend that low in relaxed dialogue - it should very much be a lower extreme of sorts, and *not* where speech tends to dwell, but it is common in women.

Your voice is fine. Go have tea.

[anjaq]

Please get it out of your head that "being able to" hit 130hz is weird, it's just going to sideline people into your myopic and idealised perspective of your voice that, honestly, goes beyond any gender cues perceptible to others.

This is voice feminization surgery. I know voice frequences and I can tell you it is far from uncommon for a woman's speaking range to extend that low in relaxed dialogue - it should very much be a lower extreme of sorts, and *not* where speech tends to dwell, but it is common in women.

Your voice is fine. Go have tea.

Well, I would not dismiss Voodles issues. If her average voice now is in a relaxed mode at 160 Hz, its not really the increase she hoped for, giving her 200 Hz . And it may well be that it is so - Yesons number 75 is an average increase, this means for some it may be a little less and for some it may be more. So its well possible she only got lets say 40 Hz increase and is disappointed by that, despite her voice really sounding good to my ears too, but one would have to compare pre and post op trained and untrained voice recordings to get a clearer picture of how much has changed.

I think 130 Hz should rather be the bottom of the voice. Presently 130 Hz is above my realxed level or around that. If I drop low I got into the two digit numbers. So I would hope that later 130 Hz would feel like the two digits now. But if the voice rests in a relaxed manner at the 130 Hz, I would be disappointed as this is what it does right now as well. Voodle - can you tell us where those 130 Hz for you are? Are they the very bottom of your voice or is it a relaxed speech for you? I did not perceive a 130 Hz word in your recording, so I kind of assume that it is more the lower limit if you try to speak really low. What was your low end before? In many who had VFS the low end before was 80 or 90 Hz and it went up to 130 Hz.

Haha it's weird to think how much I must have screwed things up with coughing since initially I only went up a few hz and you've already got a nearly 40hz pitch increase, that's great

I doubt it has to do with the coughing. I hope so, since I will go into the surgery just recovering from a cold and certainly will have to cough a few times - but Yeson gives out that chart with different edevelopments and for some it is initially faster and for some it is slower, he did not say why that is though, AFAIK... So you were just not one of those who had a fast increase. I suspect I will not be one either since my body tends to react with a lot of swelling to surgeries and this would certainly bring down the pitch.

Also I dont think it has to do nything with "nowadays" - In the FB group there are some who had the same issues - slow initial pitch gain but later on it was going up - and they had surgery within the past 6 months. Dont be so hard on yourself, please.

It's crazy to think I did actually have a good result - I went to a group speech therapy session the other day and I felt so bad, it was like I was wasting everyone else's time because my voice is actually already there :/ (although I do think it still has room for improvement). The speech therapist kinda did that on purpose.

Yes. To remind you that your surgery DID work and that it is a alot easier now for you to speak normally, right?
I think you are right with the statement that the surger mainly makes it easier to use a new voice. It gives you a new instrument and it is easiert to play it at a higher pitch. That does not mean it is impossible to hit some pretty low pitches with some effort but the "sweet point" where your voice returns to in a relaxed mood should be higher, the pitch to speak in easily should be higher and the upper trange should be easier accessible. I think all of that was achieved to you - the VFS does not make you sound like a cis teenage girl, it just takes your voice and makes it less likely to hit low pitches, cuts off the very bottom and makes it easier to reach the upper pitches for speaking. Also it should take away some of the low timbre of the voice, which is not really measurable that easily, but it is audible and is why your "low pitch voice" still sounds very much like a woman trying to speak low and not male.

[seattlesarah]

Hi Seattlesarah, what date did you have yours done, mine was on Feb 3rd so we must have been in Seoul at the same time. I haven't been game enough to say anything so far but the one accidental word I did say was the same as you say, at my trained pitch which is an awesome outcome for me. I am still hopeful that It will get better from here but even if it didn't change any further I would be pretty happy.

Jan 29 for me. How strange we didn't see each other in a city of 10 million people.