Yeson voice feminization surgery

[anjaq]

Apparently I coughed like there is no tomorrow when I was in the wake up phase before I was aware of it - the damage seems not too big though - nothing ripped, but I sometimes wonder if my progress would have been faster and more pronounced if that did not happen... But a few words by accident - thats not a big deal apparently as long as its not something that happens repeatedly.

[Jennygirl]

Anja-

I believe I surpassed preop range at around 3-4 month mark, and it continued to slowly climb during following months. Highest pitch capability was probably around month 6-9 when I was still focusing on exercises a lot of the time.

As I stopped doing the exercises as well as focusing on voice in general, the top range started dropping a little bit because I didn't have a reason to use it without the exercises keeping things in tip top shape (just like any other muscle, really). I guess only when I laugh do I ever go up that high.

Now, I do not focus on my voice at all. To me it just is what it is: my voice. I used to worry about if I was passing every time I used it, which was indeed crucial because I focused on learning new ways of speaking and adapted my brain in a lot of ways. I think I was also subconsciously working out the upper range more than the lower during that time. But, I am glad to be through all of that and getting back to life irrespective of gender change.

My comfortable speaking pitch is lower than that of my 2 and 7 month videos, probably by at least 10-20hz if not more in certain scenarios- such as when I am talking to a person that knows me well. I noticed at some point that every single one of my cis female friends tend to do this as well (lowering voice pitch around people they know well), so I do not worry about it. Everything feels natural, and I am able to pass like no tomorrow on the phone, in the drive-through, or loudly. The only time my voice was misgendered after the surgery was around month two in the drive through after a night of staying up too late.

After almost two years of being properly gendered, you kind of forget that it's even possible to be misgendered due to voice. As with most other transition-related things, I think a lot is to do with building confidence interacting with people in your preferred gender presentation. I know it didn't happen as a result of the surgery alone, a lot of it was also me working hard to retrain. But it did seem to come rather naturally. At no point was I ever overly discouraged, and I think that had a lot to do with it as well.

[anjaq]

Hi Jenny

Thanks for the info. I am now at month 3 and should definitely do more exercises to increase my upper range a bit. If it really goes up by 2 more tones until the month 6 or 9, I woul dbe able to sing a high C which would be crazy. I doubt it though, but thats ok.

That range really is only used when laughing or screaming or giggling, as you said. Maybe I could try to sing in those ranges ...

Now, I do not focus on my voice at all. To me it just is what it is: my voice. I used to worry about if I was passing every time I used it, which was indeed crucial because I focused on learning new ways of speaking and adapted my brain in a lot of ways. I think I was also subconsciously working out the upper range more than the lower during that time.

during which time was that? I feel like I am concentrating a lot on my voice now, at 3 month post op, I still seem to be nervous about it, sometimes I drop very deep or hit bad resonances - so I do a lot of voice work for myself , I guess. I hope this will be over in any reasonale timeframe... sigh - after all the point of the VFS was to get rid of that self-controlling of the voice.

My comfortable speaking pitch is lower than that of my 2 and 7 month videos, probably by at least 10-20hz if not more in certain scenarios- such as when I am talking to a person that knows me well.

Oh - I hope the reverse will happen to me since my pitch really is not yet where I was hoping it to be and where Dr Kim said it will be. Its about 2 full tones higher than my pre op voice - if it drops by 20 Hz it will be almost the same again  - but he said it should increase between month 2 and 4 which is about now... Definitely my voice is lower among friends, too. Also its lower in german compared to english.

Did you in the long run have the 75Hz increase in the average speaking voice that Dr Kim usually describes to be possible?

Everything feels natural, and I am able to pass like no tomorrow on the phone, in the drive-through, or loudly. After almost two years of being properly gendered, you kind of forget that it's even possible to be misgendered due to voice.

Awesome!

As with most other transition-related things, I think a lot is to do with building confidence interacting with people in your preferred gender presentation. I know it didn't happen as a result of the surgery alone, a lot of it was also me working hard to retrain. But it did seem to come rather naturally. At no point was I ever overly discouraged, and I think that had a lot to do with it as well.

Hmm , yes you are right. I feel encouraged now, knowing I cannot go into certain voice areas that were possible before and that calms me down a lot. But sometimes I do feel a bit frustrated when I wake up and have the impression that my voice is very low and checking on my phone it will also say it is at a D or E - which is far from the G or A that I was kind of aiming for. Once I was even down to an A - shudder. Usually doing the exercises helps at these moments though. Also at the low notes like C, A or D in the lower speaking range, my voice breaks a bit apart as well.

Its kind of funny, I sometimes feel like I am in a reversed voice break as it was in puberty. I usually use a higher pitch and good resonance, but at times it can break into that bad resonance and lower pitch. It was like that when I was 14 or so, I guess - but after that it got stuck more and more in the lower part, whil enow it is the reverse and I am sticking to the higher part more and more.

[Teslagirl]

After almost two years of being properly gendered, you kind of forget that it's even possible to be misgendered due to voice. As with most other transition-related things, I think a lot is to do with building confidence interacting with people in your preferred gender presentation. I know it didn't happen as a result of the surgery alone, a lot of it was also me working hard to retrain. But it did seem to come rather naturally. At no point was I ever overly discouraged, and I think that had a lot to do with it as well.

Hello Jenny.

It's great to see you on here again; you're a real pioneer! I knew about Yeson a long time ago but I'd heard such bad things about voice surgery in general (mickey mouse etc) that I wasn't ready to do anything at the time. It took someone brave like you to leap without being able to hear many voice samples before the rest of us could go forward.
I'm finally going in July.

What you were saying about confidence really rings true to me. I transitioned much longer ago than almost anyone on Susan's and I trained my voice and just forgot about it. My general appearance, height (5,5) and confidence carry me through life with few passing problems (and I'm no oil painting by any means!), but sometimes the phone is a different matter and I have occasionally to correct people.

I'm hoping Dr Kim's procedure will put this right, but as I have been using my trained voice for an extremely long time (think decades) I'm not sure how hard it will be to adjust to a new voice, and it's a bit scary. Sometimes I think I should just go with what I have, as in 99% of situations, it's fine. I can't scream or sing though, That's much harder. I'd really love to sing, and I'm hoping to be able to relaxed in my voice,and never worry.

Do you think I'm doing the wrong thing in going to Yeson?

Thanks for being a pioneer!

Sarah.

[anjaq]

I think using a trained voice for long time is not an obstacle. From how I feel it, it is helping me as much as it is causing me confusion. I have used a trained voice for 17 years after all (how much was it for you, Sarah?).
Some things about the trained voice are helpful (resonance, prosody, melody, that sort of thing) and others are not helping ( forcing pitch up, using force or tension in any way). But I think with time one can relax into the new voice and some things are just a lot easier to do than without the surgery.

But maybe Jenny can give her long term perspective on that, although she did AFAIK not have such a long time of using a trained voice before the surgery

[Teslagirl]

I think using a trained voice for long time is not an obstacle. From how I feel it, it is helping me as much as it is causing me confusion. I have used a trained voice for 17 years after all (how much was it for you, Sarah?).

Double that, and you're getting close!

I depend on my voice to teach. I hope I'm not doing the wrong thing!

Sarah.

[Sunhawk]

I've been lurking on Susans for about 5 years now and finally decided to get an account!

I finally had my VFS surgery at Yeson yesterday (May 21 2015). Thank you Jenny for starting this thread (and all the others who participated) for helping people like me find out about it! <3 <snip>.

That was the day I flew back to the US. I'm pretty sure I heard the heart monitor I heard while waiting to use their shuttle van must have been you then. Hope all is going well for you.

[ly]

That was the day I flew back to the US. I'm pretty sure I heard the heart monitor I heard while waiting to use their shuttle van must have been you then. Hope all is going well for you.

Oh cool! It's such a small world. I hope your recovery is going well too! Time flies by so quickly and I have to go home soon x.x. I'm ambivalent about time passing because being on voice rest feels so relaxing to me. But at the same time, I'm excited for when I can start practicing more.

[kaybeccab]

Good to hear they could reschedule your examination and surgery date. Probably someone elwe was available to fill the gap. I planned to arrive 2 days in advance when I went there, just in case of such hickups and also to get rid of some of the jetlag. And it was not a bad idea. one flight was delayed and we almost missed the connecting flight and in Bejing , the Chinese security people took over 2 hours to check us out, which almost led to problems as well.

kaybeccab - thanks for the explanation by a studies speech pathologist. It totally makes sense and is a good description of what we were already guessing - that the surgery more enables one to do something and that the brain does have to relearn a lot. Actually Dr Kim says that - the brain has to adjust to the new vocal chord configuration, hence the exercises are so important. I definitely can still use my old pitch and sometimes fall into it, but it is at the lowest of my vocal range and sounds all broken and hurts my throat. So Dr Kim actually told me to consciously use a higher speaking pitch. I hope my brain will get used to it soon, so I can just forget about this - This also explains why it is harder to get a good pitch increase if you are older. Your brain has had longer time to develop habits that have to be unlearned now.

This is probably why a lot of girls report no change. Even though their range has been shifted upwards, where their brain puts their voice is still within the range, so their brains default to it. The interesting thing about how this works is that it's more than possible for someone to go their entire life unaware that the surgery worked perfectly, thinking it changed nothing or was unsuccessful.

[Zoe Snow]

I just passed the 4 week mark, which means I can start talking a little bit now.  I recorded the rainbow passage.  I could tell that was all my voice was able to handle right now.  I was trying to talk as relaxed as possible, and I felt like that was as low as I could go right now.  Praat said the average was at 180 Hz, but it started out around 196 Hz.

https://soundcloud.com/zoe-snow/4weeks

[anjaq]

Wow, that sounds a lot cleaner and clearer than when I tried this after 4 weeks. Seems you are healing well...

[Jennygirl]

Sounding really great Zoe!

You must be floored with your results so far Congrats!

[anjaq]

This is probably why a lot of girls report no change. Even though their range has been shifted upwards, where their brain puts their voice is still within the range, so their brains default to it. The interesting thing about how this works is that it's more than possible for someone to go their entire life unaware that the surgery worked perfectly, thinking it changed nothing or was unsuccessful.

Well I am not even sure if the range shifts that much. I can go almost as low as I could pre op and almost as high as I could back then as well. But the comfort zone seems to have shifted up by a bit. Its a bit hard to find though, which is a good pitch for me now. I am struggling a bit because most pitches feel like I am "doing something" and not be relaxed. I would love to find some exercises that make you find your optimal pitch ... maybe meditation or Yoga and then doing voice exercises after that when being totally relaxed?

[thegreenrabbit]

Well I am not even sure if the range shifts that much. I can go almost as low as I could pre op and almost as high as I could back then as well. But the comfort zone seems to have shifted up by a bit.

I agree with. I think it sums up the benefits of this VFS.

[Zoe Snow]

Sounding really great Zoe!

You must be floored with your results so far Congrats!

Yeah, I am completely blown away by the change so far.  I can tell its going to take a little getting used to.  What I hear when I speak isn't what I'm expecting to hear.  Its so odd.  It also feels like I have a very narrow band where where my voice sounds fine.  If I stray too high or too low from that, my voice just starts to fall apart.  Can't wait to start the vocal exercises in a month and really see where things go. 

For comparison, I'm adding a couple recordings I did prior to going to Yeson.  I wasn't able to get my natural voice back down to where it was originally for this recording.  I think I dropped it down to around 150 Hz for that recording, which is roughly what Yeson said my voice was when I was there.  I do know that originally my voice was around 120 Hz before I started working on my voice.  My trained voice at that time was around 208 Hz, though when I was at Yeson, they said my trained voice was around 185 Hz. 

https://soundcloud.com/zoe-snow/trained-voice
https://soundcloud.com/zoe-snow/natural-voice

[anjaq]

Thats cool. I hear the same change I heard in most, including me - it is a bit higher in pitch, basically in the trained pre op range and the "male edge" is gone. I do however think that the assessment is right, the untrained voice sounds to me like a 150 Hz and the trained voice is below 200 Hz, so 180 may be right. I totally can relate to the issue of not being able to drop to the original range. I really tried  but only cane to 134 Hz at Yeson, while at home I was able to let it drop to 120, 110 or even 100 Hz. My original voice must have been in that range. But its just a psychological barrier to do that in front of people, even if they are professionals.

[iKate]

Quick question. When do you resume your estrogen post surgery? The day after?

[Zoe Snow]

Quick question. When do you resume your estrogen post surgery? The day after?

Yup, Dr. Kim said I could resume taking Spiro and Estrogen the next day after the procedure

[iKate]

I'm not stopping spiro only e as I take spiro for blood pressure

[anjaq]

I asked my endocrinologist. She said I would not even have to stop transdermal estradiol (if I had pills or Androcur, I would have to stop them though). So I stopped only a day before the surgery and resumed the evening after.