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Beliefs…Can Bring Comfort Or Despair .

Started by Anatta, May 24, 2013, 04:53:18 PM

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Anatta

Kia Ora,

Some food for 'thought"  (Thought being the key word here)

Human cognition depends upon slow-firing neurons

"Insults to these highly evolved cortical circuits impair the ability to create and maintain our mental representations of the world, which is the basis of higher cognition," said Amy Arnsten, professor of neurobiology and senior author of the paper published in the Feb. 20 issue of the journal Neuron.

High-order thinking depends upon our ability to generate mental representations in our brains without any sensory stimulation from the environment. These cognitive abilities arise from highly evolved circuits in the prefrontal cortex. Mathematical models by former Yale neurobiologist Xiao-Jing Wang, now of New York University, predicted that in order to maintain these visual representations the prefrontal cortex must rely on a family of receptors that allow for slow, steady firing of neurons. The Yale scientists show that NMDA-NR2B receptors involved in glutamate signalling regulate this neuronal firing.  These receptors, studied at Yale for more than a decade, are responsible for activity of highly evolved brain circuits found especially in primates.!"

http://news.yale.edu/2013/02/20/human-cognition-depends-upon-slow-firing-neurons-yale-researchers-find

"The cerebral cortex is largely responsible for human cognition, playing an essential role in perception, memory, thought, language, mental ability, intellect and consciousness. It is composed of about 20 billion neurons and accounts for 40 percent of the brain's weight!"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721182137.htm

So when you 'die' who or what 'knows' (is aware) it is in/ experiences this so called  afterlife (be it a form of heaven/ hell or 'transit' lounge ) ? Bearing in 'mind' what we presently 'experience' involves 'thinking' and thinking involves 'neurons'-cells that make up the 'organic' brain that no longer functions when the body dies and begins to decay...

"Thinking is just movement confined to the brain !"

And now for some pretty pictures that will make you 'think'  ;) ;D

( This video is an interesting one to ponder ) :eusa_think:



Umm atheism does seem to have a point...


Who is it that sees things,and feels joy/pain/fear/happiness etc etc in the 'afterlife' when the organic matter and energy no longer function as a unit?...

However, one of many more spiritual takes on where  'thoughts' come from... Eckhart Tolle



Umm spiritual belief does seem to have a point !

I did warn you...It's food for thought and thought itself is the thinker!

Beliefs can bring Comfort Or Despair... And what 'are' beliefs but simple..................

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

#21
Quote from: Jess42 on June 04, 2013, 01:20:46 PM
Have you ever noticed, at funerals, the deceaced is always pretty much going to heaven even though the person may have been the lousiest parent, stolen countless things, treated other people badly and so on?



Kia Ora Jess,

You make a very interesting point...How we never seem to speak ill of the dead even if they were   real evil/hateful bastards in life...

Mind you when Maggie Thatcher(a former British Prime Minster)  died just recently, many people did just that, rejoicing singing things like "Ding dong the witch is dead the wicked witch is dead!"

Edited BTW this is Maggie Thatcher (just in case you didn't know)


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jess42

There is just one thing that I have a hard time accepting when it comes to Nuerology and all of this just happens in our "brains", near death experiences that happen in operating rooms. This is one aspect of the puzzle that a lot of Christian believers actually believe in. Maybe just because a lot of people experience seeing feeling Jesus's presence (which concretes their beliefs and validates their religious perceptions) but I might add, starts out the same as the death experience in past life regressions. Past life regression in this instance go a lot farther than near death experiences and shows that the beginning experiences are physical perceptions that the Soul hasn't rid itself of yet. Like I said, Past life regression mirrors near death experiences to the "T" with the exception that the person doesn't come back into the body but goes on to different phases of the experience.

Anyway, I have had surgery before and when they inject the medicine in the IV tube you are out. There are many instances that a patient that has died during surgery and can remember, without hypnosis, and recount whole conversations that happened when their temporary death had occured. They can also 'see' what the medical staff did to try to ressucitate the dead body. If you are knocked out for surgery, how can this be? Is this actually a part of ourselves that survive the physical death? I know during my surgery, I didn't know anything until the anesthesiologist brought me back. It was 45 minutes of nothing. To me it was felling really good, then I was asked if I was ready and then the medicine was injected. The next thing I know the lady was asking me if I felt OK when she brought me out of the anesthesia. No memory of actually slipping into unconsciousness with no dreams or anything. This is the main reason why I can't accept that near death experiences are wholly neurological in that the brain is creating the whole experience. Or for that matter the whole aspect of death being nothing but a brain event.

Kind of like the chicken and the egg paradox, what came first? The mind or the brain? What is the mind? It's not physical. The brain is of course but where do our personalities and perceptions really come from? Is this something that is brought about by nuerons firing in the brain or is it something that is a holdover or something that we are born with? I do believe in science and find it quite intriguing for the most part but I think a lot of time scientists leave out a certain Spiritual aspect to their research. I am not talking about a religious aspect but rather an aspect of intellegent design instead of any specific perception. The old saying "mind over matter" interests me. Is this a hint of evolution? Are we mentally evolving higher and higher mental capabilities? Look at us now compared to a thousand or five thousand years ago. A lot of people look to the bible and see a differnce between the God of the Old Testement and the God of the New Testement. What I see when looking with an open mind is not so much a differnce in God or the Creator but a difference in human peceptions of a Devine power. Our understanding has changed and is constantly changing, not the Creator. We used to think that when you sailed far enough in a ship, you would fall off the edge of the earth. We now know the plant is a sphere and not flat and that no matter how hard you try, you will never sail off the edge of the planet. Our perceptions changed and we see the our world different than the ancients saw it. I believe our Spiritual perceptions change too according to what we can or are willing to percieve. Look at how much our perceptions of the Universe has changed over time. We used to believe that we were at the center of the universe and the sun and the solar system revolved around the earth. We now know that we are not at the center of the Universe and we and the other planets revolved around the sun and the sun revolves around a point in the galaxy. WHat changed? Nothing but our perceptions. Everything else is pretty much a constant and has been doing its thing for mellenia.

I believe that religions should be used as pieces of a puzzle instead of being fought over or disagreed upon or used as a means of control. Once perceptions change enough, it's only a matter of time until another religion takes over and holds the symbolism of the age in which spawns it's birth. Corruption by governments or established religions can herald this. Also out of a deperation and hunger for knowledge by the people, or just a staleness by the common accepted Spiritual beliefs of the time. A lot of Christians believe that the Book of Revelation is an end time event. I see it as the death of the old and worn out and the rebirth of a new perception of the Devine Entity. The Mayan Calender sparked the end of one age and a lot of folks believed that something spectacular would happen. What if it did and we don't even percieve it? It started over with the 2nd baktun and the prophecy in that is that it will be the end of "the word of God". What is the word of God? It could be the Bible, meaning that perceptions for the last roughly two thousand years will be changed or forced to change to another higher form of perception. For example we might even see that God or The Creator gave us all the tools to control our own destiny instead of percieving that that particular Entity intervenes in every little detail of our lives or anyone elses. We may even begin to percieve corruption in governments and religious entities instead of just blindly following without question. We may even percieve death as an extension of an eternal existance than just the end of life period. The possiblities are endless when it comes to perceptions and how we see the world and universe as compared to how our world and universe truly are.

Anyway, I am usually and by nature and experience the world's most pessimistic person but when it comes to Spirituality, for some reason I seem to be the world's most optimistic person. Go figure that one out. If anyone can tell me why I am such a paradox in a matter such as this, please enlighten me. I warn you though, I have been called crazy, insane, ignorant and the list goes on for my beliefs. I am about ready to start believing them.
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vegie271

Quote from: Misato on May 25, 2013, 08:11:51 AM
I like this:

Got me thinking of Geroge Carlin second commandment when he squeezed the 10 commandments down.  "Keep thy religion to thyself."

I don't talk about my philosophy very often.  I do find it kind of amusing my belief in reincarnation was informed by a twist on mathematical induction!  My Discrete Math Professor put it once, "If one domino falls, the rest have to" so I just applied that to "I'm alive now!" :)

The comfort I get from my belief is it is a philosophy and it can change.  It's also only mine so if I'm wrong I'll be the only one to pay any consequences if there are any.  But that seems silly to me cause I think I'm a good person.  And for me I'm in rare company too as I'm seeing articles that the new Pope is advocating that even atheists can get into heaven if they're good!  Now this guy holds positions I very much disagree with but, I also expect little from popes.  So I cannot help but like the guy so far! :)




OK well I am a Gnostic Atheist, I am not really interested in Heaven, especially anything I have heard about the Christian idea of heaven that I grew up with, it really sounded boring, the idea of sitting around telling some guy how great he is forever just does not interest me. god just seem really selfish to me. Like some two year old who threw a lot of temper tantrums whenever you did not pay enough attention to him.


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Anatta

Kia Ora Jess,

According to Buddhist teachings, the 'mind' is just 'knowing' and is the root from which 'all' things grow...The 'self' can never acquire pure unpolluted knowledge of the mind- No-self can...

It could be said we are all a paradox of a kind...bundles of selves that make up what we call a personality which is in a constant state of flux ever changing not remaining the same for one moment...

If you attempt to look for your 'self' you can never find it...

"There was a young man who said though it seems I know that I know, what I would like to see is the "I" that knows me when I know that I know that I know!" 

Alan Watts

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: vegie271 on June 05, 2013, 11:01:10 AM



OK well I am a "Gnostic" Atheist,




Kia Ora Vegie,

:eusa_think: I like that  ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Kia

QuoteOK well I am a Gnostic Atheist

Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. Gnosticism is a theistic system of belief, so how do you balance that with an atheistic viewpoint? As a religious studies student I'm always interested in how individuals define their spirituality.
[/quote]
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vegie271

Quote from: Kia on June 05, 2013, 05:10:01 PM
Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. Gnosticism is a theistic system of belief, so how do you balance that with an atheistic viewpoint? As a religious studies student I'm always interested in how individuals define their spirituality.



It is a way of stating that you are certain that "god" does not exist  ;D as opposed to simply being a Agnostic Atheist, sometimes I even go so far as to state I am even an anti-theist when I get confronted by really vehement fundamentalists  ;D

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Kia

yeah but gnostics do very much believe in "god" they call it the Monad or the Absolute, but interestingly enough they believe that the common god that is the Creator is the Demiurge and creates this reality to keep us from the truth of the Monad. Phillip K. Dick had a cool gnostic idea that pretty much sums up gnosticism. He believed it is currently the year 36 and Jesus had just died on the cross, and Satan powerless to stop the resurrection created this whole illusion that the world went on when according to Dick in reality we are all just like ancient Romans or whatever; interesting stuff.

But aside from all that I think I get what you're saying. I was raised to be Catholic and I spent every sunday playing spaceship under the pews because Christianity seemed silly to me and I never understood how if God was omniscient and omnipotent why he cared about every little thing I did.

Edit: no yeah I definitely understand what you're saying now. like agnostic is "no knowledge" and therefore unsure,  you are gnostic "knowledge" and therefore are sure ;)
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Misato

Quote from: vegie271 on June 05, 2013, 11:01:10 AM

OK well I am a Gnostic Atheist, I am not really interested in Heaven, especially anything I have heard about the Christian idea of heaven that I grew up with, it really sounded boring, the idea of sitting around telling some guy how great he is forever just does not interest me.


So totally get ya on heaven sounding boring.
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Anatta

Quote from: Jess42 on June 05, 2013, 09:55:39 AM
There is just one thing that I have a hard time accepting when it comes to Nuerology and all of this just happens in our "brains", near death experiences that happen in operating rooms. This is one aspect of the puzzle that a lot of Christian believers actually believe in. Maybe just because a lot of people experience seeing feeling Jesus's presence (which concretes their beliefs and validates their religious perceptions) but I might add, starts out the same as the death experience in past life regressions. Past life regression in this instance go a lot farther than near death experiences and shows that the beginning experiences are physical perceptions that the Soul hasn't rid itself of yet. Like I said, Past life regression mirrors near death experiences to the "T" with the exception that the person doesn't come back into the body but goes on to different phases of the experience.

Kia Ora Jess,

You may have already read/seen this...(Perhaps in a past life) ;) ;D

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/near-death-experience3.htm

Meta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Arch

Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Anatta

Quote from: Arch on June 05, 2013, 11:49:56 PM
Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.
Kia Ora Arch,

That's true, but sadly for many people this is easier said than done...There's a lot of thought involved when it comes to changing ones beliefs (and I mean lots of 'thought' in the literal sense)...In some cases, years upon years of mental conditioning needs to be de-programmed then re-programmed by creating new neuropathways in the brain...

I'm happy to hear your personal beliefs bring you some form of contentment...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jess42

Quote from: Arch on June 05, 2013, 11:49:56 PM
Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.

Arch, you should be confident and comfortable with your beliefs, but don't let other's beliefs casue you distress or despair. What beliefs we have are unique to us as individuals and each of us are on individual Spiritual levels. Some people may actuall need the type of overcontrolling strict doctorine religions that cause so many outside of that particular religion despair. That path of enlightenment may not be right for you, it isn't for me anyway.

Kuan Yin. No it was this life that I read something similar. ;D I definately believe in supernatural occurances and paranormal phenomona in the sense that it is outside the realm on normal physics and natural perceptions. Eventually I believe that the supernatural and paranormal will be seen as perfectly natural and normal. Ghosts and disembodied spirits is an example. This phenomonon used to be scary but more and more, because of different shows on television, people are picking up voice and video recorders and heading to the nearest haunted location to experience it for themselves. I have investigated this all of my life (from 16 until now, almost thirty years off and on) and let me say that a supposed haunting used to be viewed as bad. the people experiencing it would be relieved that it just happened to be vermin, pipes, limestone deposits, running water underground and so on. If it was paranormal, they were relieved if we could somewhat prove that it was residual and not intellegent. Now more and more people seem disappointed when we can find a natural or normal reason why they are hearing sounds and a few have outright refused to believe when we have proof that we can debunk the haunting. I have had people contact me that have only had one experience usually with "shadow people". I go investigate and usually find nothing and when I try to tell them how the brain works by specifically recognizing human forms and faces and how shadows will sometimes trigger the brain's recognition skills and fool it into seeing human shapes or faces, they sometimes get offended. I myself have see "shadow people" but I recognize it for what it is.

I agree with you about easier said than done. The human ego keeps us mired down in a material world either out of fear or just a comfort in one's view of the world and their self image in that world. I believe that people need to keep an open mind when it comes to Spirituality and not get stuck in one line of thinking because when that train of thought derails, it is a traumatic experience. Not to mention that if something comes about that will blow that doctrine out of the water, we can recognize it instead of trying to hold on to outdated thoughts. Roughly every 1800-2600 years Spiritual perceptions change, but not peacefully though because of the old powers that think they be refuse to change their perceptions or relinquish their control. Along with the needed change of perceptions, teachers come to prod us along into expanding our views. Yeshua or Jesus was the harbinger of a new perception and just happens to be the one we are in now. Not in an established religious perception though. The first Buddah was one along with Abraham and Moses in the Bible.

Maybe my mind is so open that my brain fell out but if you look closely into it there seems to be a pattern or cycles to Spirituality. Much like there are cycles throughout our Universe. Some of them happen ever so slowly that we can't even percieve them in our lifetime like the 26000 year cycle of the Mayan Calender which ended on Dec. 21, 2012 and will end again on Dec. 21, 28,012 whether humans are on this planet or not. Or as fast as one rotation of the planet which is only 1 day to us.
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Anatta

Quote from: Jess42 on June 06, 2013, 07:57:01 AM



Kuan Yin. No it was this life that I read something similar. ;D I definately believe in supernatural occurances and paranormal phenomona in the sense that it is outside the realm on normal physics and natural perceptions. Eventually I believe that the supernatural and paranormal will be seen as perfectly natural and normal. Ghosts and disembodied spirits is an example. This phenomonon used to be scary but more and more, because of different shows on television, people are picking up voice and video recorders and heading to the nearest haunted location to experience it for themselves.

Kia Ora Jess,

I find this guy "Michio Kaku" quite entertaining, easy to understand and very educational...And when he explains what happens when the radio picks up different frequencies  (forms of energy) it opens up ones mind even more...Ah the possibilities are endless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1

::) So your mind is quite open but your brains have not fallen out (well not yet anyway) ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jess42

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 06, 2013, 02:30:17 PM
Kia Ora Jess,

I find this guy "Michio Kaku" quite entertaining, easy to understand and very educational...And when he explains what happens when the radio picks up different frequencies  (forms of energy) it opens up ones mind even more...Ah the possibilities are endless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1

::) So your mind is quite open but your brains have not fallen out (well not yet anyway) ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Yeah Kuan Yin, sometimes I have to check the floor or rum the side of my face under my ears to check for gray matter leakage. ;)

I love to listen to Michio Kaku talk about theories and so on. The man does have a way of opening your eyes to other possibilities.
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Anatta

Quote from: peky on May 24, 2013, 06:59:55 PM

We Jews believe that G-d gives a divine Soul to every human. When a human dies the Soul, unscathed by the actions of the human (good or bad) goes back to G-d. We also believe that every human has an spirit, and  that when we die the spirit goes to the "Sheol" where we wait for the resurrection at the end of times. The Sheol is poorly defined, and we do not know what is the fate for the spirits of bad people.

It is important to know that in Judaism there is no "sin" as defined by Christianity, we prefer to refer to our failures as "missing the mark," or "missing an opportunity."

Kia Ora Peky,

I don't know much about Judaism, (or Kabbalah the 'mystical' part of Judaism that you follow) so I did a bit of digging and found this on "Sheol" ...(Which sounds an awful lot like the Catholic purgatory) 

"Sheol in the OT, comparable to contemporary Greek Hades or the Babylonian underworlds, was a place where dead human beings were sent, to maintain their being in a diminished state. It was a place inferior to natural human life, but not one of punishment, per se. Virtue and sin did not enter into it; based on the OT, everybody went to Sheol."

"Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jess42

One thing that I find really interesting when it comes to belief systems is that most of them have more in common than not at least with the main message anyway. Sheol and Purgetory sounds like they could be used interchangeably. Same way with Karma and Righteousness. I think if religions could put aside petty differences and concentrate on the main message, our world would be a lot better place. Same way with science and religion. If we could study religion through a scientific mind and study science with a spiritual mind, we may have a lot more answers than we do now. What I know about Jesus or Yeshua, is through the bible with an open mind and through historical data surrounding the the myths of his life, times, and teachings also by using an open mind. There is a common denominator to all religions and that really is what should be the focus, not whether or not we are going to heaven or hell but rather trying to see ourselves, our fellow Souls and our world through the eyes of Love instead of the two spheres stuck in our skull.

What about Chakras? Where do we feel Love for something? Where do we feel dislike for something? Do the Chakra points outline the body of the Soul? I tend to believe that the human body is a vessel for our Souls and our Souls are the vessel of our Spirits and the Spirit is that which was Created in the image of the Creator and is pure and untainted like peky said. Our Souls on the other hand contain our personality/personalities and or self identification and allows us to be different and unique individuals. "God is Love" and "with God all things are possible" are really strong messages right straight from Christ's teachings. Unfortunately a lot of religions do not practice this. So according to the Bible, is it not possible that God created transgender people and even if "He" didn't how can a person justify the hate against us. Even when the Bible states "love thy neighbor"? What if God is both male and female, how would some of these religions handle that? Remember the words "with God all things are possible" and this is a possibility is it not? Just like a supervolcano or asteroid wiping out mankind is a possibility and both of these things have happened in the past. Somehow I think most religions would accept the end of mankind before they could except that their God is transgedered because most of them have created a mental image in their minds of what God is. You know you could also call it a mental "graven image" which is direct violation of one of the ten commandments. Anyway, when talking to uber religious people that see things in a constant good and evil light, I always have an argument along the lines of people who are living in glass houses but most of the time (99%) its as fruitful as talking to a brick wall.
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vegie271

Quote from: Jess42 on June 07, 2013, 07:50:45 AM
One thing that I find really interesting when it comes to belief systems is that most of them have more in common than not at least with the main message anyway. Sheol and Purgetory sounds like they could be used interchangeably. Same way with Karma and Righteousness. I think if religions could put aside petty differences and concentrate on the main message, our world would be a lot better place. Same way with science and religion. If we could study religion through a scientific mind and study science with a spiritual mind, we may have a lot more answers than we do now. What I know about Jesus or Yeshua, is through the bible with an open mind and through historical data surrounding the the myths of his life, times, and teachings also by using an open mind. There is a common denominator to all religions and that really is what should be the focus, not whether or not we are going to heaven or hell but rather trying to see ourselves, our fellow Souls and our world through the eyes of Love instead of the two spheres stuck in our skull.

What about Chakras? Where do we feel Love for something? Where do we feel dislike for something? Do the Chakra points outline the body of the Soul? I tend to believe that the human body is a vessel for our Souls and our Souls are the vessel of our Spirits and the Spirit is that which was Created in the image of the Creator and is pure and untainted like peky said. Our Souls on the other hand contain our personality/personalities and or self identification and allows us to be different and unique individuals. "God is Love" and "with God all things are possible" are really strong messages right straight from Christ's teachings. Unfortunately a lot of religions do not practice this. So according to the Bible, is it not possible that God created transgender people and even if "He" didn't how can a person justify the hate against us. Even when the Bible states "love thy neighbor"? What if God is both male and female, how would some of these religions handle that? Remember the words "with God all things are possible" and this is a possibility is it not? Just like a supervolcano or asteroid wiping out mankind is a possibility and both of these things have happened in the past. Somehow I think most religions would accept the end of mankind before they could except that their God is transgedered because most of them have created a mental image in their minds of what God is. You know you could also call it a mental "graven image" which is direct violation of one of the ten commandments. Anyway, when talking to uber religious people that see things in a constant good and evil light, I always have an argument along the lines of people who are living in glass houses but most of the time (99%) its as fruitful as talking to a brick wall.




I am sorry I can't beleive in some all powerful all knowing being who can run around doing things and make this wonderful universe, but leave it so messed up as it is. Why are things in such a state?

Asimov gave a much better theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

better than all of the delirious ramblings of prophets throughout  history

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Sarah Louise

You have your right to your own set of beliefs.

They don't happen to agree with mine, but they don't have to.

Just make sure not to be to rude in expressing your thoughts.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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