More MtF than FtM. Your thoughts

[Mr.X]

I have been noticing and pondering about this for a while now. There seem to be way more male to female transexuals than female to male. If I remember correctly, a leaflet that was given to me said one in 30000 women were trans, while 1 in 10000 men were trans.

The question is, why? Why are there more MtFs than FtMs? Of course the ladies are invited to give their six cents as well.

My first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

My second thought was socialization. The male and female role is pretty strict, but females seem to be more allowed to genderbend a little. The term tomboy is well known, and generally does not have a negative tone to it. But queer does. Males are seemingly less allowed to show feminine traits than females are allowed to show male traits. Consequentely, this can drive MtFs quicker to the decision to transition.

Of course, like in many sciences, we do not know what the raw numbers are. We only see the transexuals that seek help. For all we know, MtFs are quicker (as stated above) to seek help, and FtMs remain in the closet longer, or are easier to accept/choose to live their lives as a woman in the end.

Wild thoughts, I know. What do you guys think? Ever pondered about this?

[Flan]

I think it's a mixture of trans women being more visible and many societies that view persons assigned male at birth who reject their gender role as being "less than." Patriarchal attitudes placing value in male gender roles and by proxy activities goes back to the hunter-gathering societies (even though the obvious answer was that both genders has separate but equally important roles).

[Northern Jane]

My first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

That is my personal opinion - something that was supposed to happen (during gestation) DIDN'T.

[Jack_M]

I think it is, like one of the points you made, the idea that masculine women are to a degree acceptable in society but feminine men not so much.  I almost think it's like there's a lot of women out there who are comfortable enough just dressing more masculine and acting a little more masculine but without having to go any further than that.  So what I feel can happen is that some people like that will identify as transgender but not feel the need to actually go the route of going on hormones or getting surgery, whereas some just don't need to go that route and can stay happy being a masculine female without needing to change their name for example.

Before I continue I am more than well aware that there's more to transitioning than clothing, but this is just example based.

The "unisex" culture is more that male clothing is now considered for either gender, but there's no real female unisex thing happening.  Female tees are female tees, there's no unisex about that.  And female clothing is specific to a women's shape, but women can wear men's clothing, and they can even make male clothing look feminine.  A man's shape is just more straight so if you have curves, you just might need a bigger size but it can work.  Yet feminine clothing doesn't work so well without the body shape. 

Also, with equality efforts and so on, more masculine based traits are actually a good thing for women in the work place and so on.  For example, greater confidence, drive and being competitive.  Whereas more feminine based traits of being soft and shy aren't as great qualities in many work places.  So for women, it can be acceptable, and sometime encouraged in certain areas to be masculine.

So women have the option to be either feminine, masculine or combination of the two and that's all well and good to a degree.   But there's no real alternative for men.  A man can't really go unnoticed or be quite so accepted if they wear feminine clothing.  That stands out.  A feminine man stands out; a masculine woman...meh!  And to really look right in female clothing, you do need to try and fill out certain areas.  So for that people feel the need to either fake body parts or get on hormones and get surgery. 

Basically the way I see it is that I personally believe that for FTM we only see the tip of the iceberg, as in the ones who more need medical intervention or at least a male name.  And perhaps to a degree if having masculine traits wasn't as acceptable or even encouraged for women, we'd maybe actually have more people identifying as FTM so they could act and wear the clothes they want to. 

I'm almost scared to post this for fear of looking like I'm making out that some MTFs aren't true MTFs or something.  But I don't mean that at all.  I mean that I feel societal influence can have an influence just based on what is acceptable and if not, what we have to potentially change to be acceptable as who we are inside.  And I'm also not trying to say it's easier to be FTM because I actually find that the, "Why not just stay a masculine female because that's acceptable?" argument is common.  I actually find some people suggesting they better understand MTF over FTM given the culture we have today.

[Lilyyy]

I HATE masculine gender roles. I think they do not fit me. It upsets me when family members tell me I am going to be a 'man' soon because in reality I am not. I am going to transition into a beautiful woman. I'm very scared but I shouldn't worry too much. I would love for people to treat me like a girl. I hate it when people assume I am just 'one of the boys'

I got hurt today by one of the boys and he teases me because I am weak and effeminate. When we were about 12 we were like the same person - same personality and all. Then we took different routes. I discovered that deep down inside I am feminine but my friend, well.......... he is deffinately male. He is now the most masculine boy in my year - he's 6 foot and I'm still skinny and feminine (i weigh 53kg). I still hate being 1.75m and I feel in pain when people say I am a boy. I would do anything to be a girl.

Your question-

My personality is that being a woman is great. You get to look nice, act civilised be protected and taken care of, be traeted like a possession. It is just great. When I finally transition I will be so much happier. Who wants to be male anyway?

[Liminal Stranger]

Who wants to be male anyway?

Well, you are posting in an FtM thread 
But yeah, I know what you mean and sometimes I feel that way in reverse- then I realize that when it comes down to it, there's a spot either on the spectrum or beyond it for everyone. The cookie-cutter gender mold might be right for them in their original role, or a mold might fit them for the opposite sex, or maybe no mold fits them at all.

The ratio of morphological male and female fetuses, when the higher rate of abortion for the XY fetus is taken into account, is roughly 1:1. However, MtF transsexuals would happen to be a lot more visible simply for the fact that at the very least, they would be seen as "crossdressing". That hardly exists at all for female-raised individuals, who at the most could be seen as tomboyish or butch for wearing a suit. But heaven forbid we let poor confused Tommy try on his sister's old dress and paint his nails...oh what's that? He's a she? Phew, at least she's not gay then!

Another thing would be perhaps the male social upbringing, which has imbued many of these MtF individuals to stand up for themselves. The female role is too often one of meekness and submission, one that discourages breaking the mold in the first place- let alone discovering a gender-sex discrepancy that needs more attention than fitting into the acceptable "masculine woman" role. Since no well-known and accepted role exists in many cases for an MtF, she will have all the more reason to fight for her place in society and the right to a happy and normal life (or abnormal if she wishes). The FtM is likely to suppress his feelings for the sake of being taught to do so, though an MtF might be forced to do the same in order to "protect the children".

But once in female attire, MAAB trans* people of all kinds will immediately gain attention both positive and negative. You wouldn't give a "lady" in a suit a second look in this day and age, but a "man" in a dress certainly catches eyes. If everyone were to come out, I'd expect that ratio to get a lot closer to 1:1.

[Devlyn]

The Forum Stats icon at the bottom of the index page says this about our membership:

Male to Female Ratio:         1:109.5 Average

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Susan's Place is a pretty good indicator of the transgender community at large.

[FTMDiaries]

The Forum Stats icon at the bottom of the index page says this about our membership:

Male to Female Ratio:         1:109.5 Average

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Susan's Place is a pretty good indicator of the transgender community at large.

[Begin huge massive generalisation]
Perhaps... but could it also be that women tend to enjoy groups more than men do, and so are more likely to join (and remain in) a support group?

Think about the world in general: how common is it for women to join support groups? And how common for men? Would women hang around a support group after they've dealt with their own issues so that they can help other group members? Would men? Perhaps the membership figures are skewed by the simple fact that women like to do things together (like support each other) whilst men like to figure things out for ourselves. After all, the Forum Stats are way out of whack with official figures supplied by GICs. Also, FtMs are more likely than MtFs to exhibit autistic traits, which means we're more likely to find groups difficult.
[End huge massive generalisation]

In answer to the OP's question, I think it's because it's easier in our societies for some people who were born female-bodied to make enough adjustments to their lives so that they can cope with some forms of GD without resorting to full transition, whereas it's very difficult for those born male-bodied to make similar adjustments.

I bet the figures look very interesting in somewhere like Iran, where gay men are transitioning in large numbers because that's the only way they can be intimate with men without facing the death penalty, but I don't believe that people who were AFAB are able to transition.

[Natkat]

I think the number is equal But usunally it looks like there is more mtf than ftms, Simple because FTM often tend to blend into sociaty as either being a regular guy or viewed as a tomboy. where mtf who do not pass are standing out.

also In many cultures the FTM thing do not really exist only the mtf part and even if it exist its a small minority. So people know you can be trans if your a man who want to be a woman, but not opposite and I guess that makes many ftms staying in the closet.

So to make it short, I think it equal but ftms just tend to be forgotten cause there often less visiable.

[Jess42]

I have been noticing and pondering about this for a while now. There seem to be way more male to female transexuals than female to male. If I remember correctly, a leaflet that was given to me said one in 30000 women were trans, while 1 in 10000 men were trans.

The question is, why? Why are there more MtFs than FtMs? Of course the ladies are invited to give their six cents as well.

My first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

My second thought was socialization. The male and female role is pretty strict, but females seem to be more allowed to genderbend a little. The term tomboy is well known, and generally does not have a negative tone to it. But queer does. Males are seemingly less allowed to show feminine traits than females are allowed to show male traits. Consequentely, this can drive MtFs quicker to the decision to transition.

Of course, like in many sciences, we do not know what the raw numbers are. We only see the transexuals that seek help. For all we know, MtFs are quicker (as stated above) to seek help, and FtMs remain in the closet longer, or are easier to accept/choose to live their lives as a woman in the end.

Wild thoughts, I know. What do you guys think? Ever pondered about this?

I have a dime, may I have four cents back? No seriously, you can keep the change.

The third paragraph is what I notice a lot where I live. I have seen F2Ms in the beginning stages of transition go in places of business and no one even takes a second glance. I have seen M2Fs go into the same type of places and everyone seems to look or have the same old things to say. It's kind of ironic in that we may be closer to our preffered genders when it comes to double standards for the genders. Or at least where I live anyway.

[FTMDiaries]

I have a dime, may I have four cents back? No seriously, you can keep the change.

The third paragraph is what I notice a lot where I live. I have seen F2Ms in the beginning stages of transition go in places of business and no one even takes a second glance. I have seen M2Fs go into the same type of places and everyone seems to look or have the same old things to say. It's kind of ironic in that we may be closer to our preffered genders when it comes to double standards for the genders. Or at least where I live anyway.

Yes, and not just where you live. There's nothing quite as sobering for an FtM as going out in public with an early-stage MtF. People's reactions to early-stage FtMs are only occasionally negative... but their reactions to early-stage MtFs are almost universally negative.

[Lajs]

I've always thought it was because MtF is more culturally established than FtM. I knew about MtF sex changes long before I even knew FtM even existed - I didn't even think Female to Male transitions were possible, let alone a thing that actually happened. And I might have come out a lot sooner if I'd known about it from the beginning.
   
As others have said MtFs are more visible in terms of how society works and so perhaps, like me, potential FtMs don't come out because they're not aware that how they feel is an established condition. I've watched several documentaries in which FtMs interact with members of the (sadly mostly ignorant) public whose reactions are invariably along the lines of,
"Oh, I didn't know it worked the other way around."

I've even had conversations with friends about transexualism (testing the waters, as it were) in which they've been all,
"Hey, did you know men can grow breasts if they take estrogen?"
And I've said something along the lines of,
"Well yeah. And women can grow what's pretty much a penis if they take testosterone."
And they've been like,
"Haha, noooo! Don't be so stupid, women can never have a penis!"
They didn't know what FtM was and refused to believe it existed even after I explained it to them. I didn't like to tell them how I knew this, though, so eventually I just gave up.

But anyway, coming back to the point, I've always believed that lack of public exposure to the other side of the coin means that potential FtMs, isolated from the LGBT community, just don't know that there are people like them and places to help them. I certainly didn't, though maybe I was just really unlucky in that respect!

[Heather]

Yes, and not just where you live. There's nothing quite as sobering for an FtM as going out in public with an early-stage MtF. People's reactions to early-stage FtMs are only occasionally negative... but their reactions to early-stage MtFs are almost universally negative.

For me my early-stage time wasn't that negative mainly just stares and a few laughs. But nothing overly negative sure people probably just made their commits behind my back but I was ok with that. What's funny now when I have to go out as a guy these days is way more awkward than going out as myself. 

[KamTheMan]

I wonder if more "butch women" would actually transition if it was considered more socially acceptable. Within 20 years that ratio might even out a bit.

[Simon]

I wonder if more "butch women" would actually transition if it was considered more socially acceptable. Within 20 years that ratio might even out a bit.

No, just because a woman is butch doesn't mean she should have been born a man. My own gf is Pansexual and masculine. She has no need to transition and loves being a woman. Of course as time goes on and transition is socially acceptable more people will transition because the taboo of it won't be a hindrance but that still won't depend on if a person is masculine or feminine.

Back to the OP's question. Like a couple others said I also believe MTF's are just more visible in society. We have it easier usually with hormonal changes and they have it easier on the surgical results end. We blend in rather quickly compared to them so they might be more apt to seek out support from each other as a way to deal with society's prejudices. A lot of transguys tend to be loners.

There really is no trans-database that I'm aware of. There are guys I've talked to who just use informed consent with their GP to obtain hormones. I doubt surgeons are releasing data on us to any group taking a tally of us. There really is no way to tell how many of us there are in the world but I'd estimate there are at least tens of thousands of us if not more. I mean Dr. Garramone alone has his business at 70% just doing top surgeries (he mentioned that once but I can't remember where) and his waiting list is huge. Think about that.

[D0LL]

I think the number is equal But usunally it looks like there is more mtf than ftms, Simple because FTM often tend to blend into sociaty as either being a regular guy or viewed as a tomboy. where mtf who do not pass are standing out.

also In many cultures the FTM thing do not really exist only the mtf part and even if it exist its a small minority. So people know you can be trans if your a man who want to be a woman, but not opposite and I guess that makes many ftms staying in the closet.

So to make it short, I think it equal but ftms just tend to be forgotten cause there often less visiable.

I don't agree with this. The statistics aren't based on how many trans people you see on the streets, I'm guessing it's based on how many people are attending therapy, taking hormones, opting for surgery, etc. I can personally say I've never met any other FtMs to my knowledge, but I know a good handful of MtFs.

I've been thinking about this lately, and I wonder if it's partially because of the social stigma of transitioning, and how society accepts appearance. It's much more acceptable for a woman to dress and act butch, because she's either a lesbian or a badass, but it's not at all ok for men to wear drag as their everyday attire. So because these butch "women" are fitting into society better, they maybe don't feel as pressured about their bodies and their appearances. Maybe they don't even know that they might want to transition because they're being left alone to live their lives much more peacefully. They can feel like the man in the relationship without having to go through the trouble of actually making their body a man's body. Meanwhile those born male who only feel comfortable in women's clothes can't lead as normal a life because (for whatever reason) society does not see that as being ok. Not to mention as men age, their features become more defined, and for a transwoman, the changes can be devastating on their mindset when all they want is delicate female features. Transmen will just always look young for their age without hormones.

[D0LL]

No, just because a woman is butch doesn't mean she should have been born a man. My own gf is Pansexual and masculine. She has no need to transition and loves being a woman. Of course as time goes on and transition is socially acceptable more people will transition because the taboo of it won't be a hindrance but that still won't depend on if a person is masculine or feminine.

I think he's simply referring to the transmen who don't transition and simply live as butch women (the same way I referenced those people). He's obviously not saying all butch women are actually trans.

[Simon]

I think he's simply referring to the transmen who don't transition and simply live as butch women (the same way I referenced those people). He's obviously not saying all butch women are actually trans.

Ah ok, if that's the case then a misunderstanding on my behalf. 

[peky]

The data seems to indicate that genetics may be playing a part on it.

In Poland the MTF to FTM ratio is 1:1

[Jess42]

The data seems to indicate that genetics may be playing a part on it.

In Poland the MTF to FTM ratio is 1:1

Yeah but that's not far from the 1:1095 that Devlyn posted. Of course I feel sorry for the person that is 0.095. I do believe they have bigger problems than being transgedered.