Does 'evil' pre-exist humanity?

[The Middle Way]

What do y'all think?

[katia]

only humans can be evil. nature is red in tooth and claw (i've been wanting a reason to say that, so thanks!) but it is supremely indifferent.  that said, i think it makes sense that evil is not this vaporous presence hovering over us, a separate entity. i think it comes from within and is completely manmade.  my jury is still out on sharks, bears and mosquitoes though. i think they really might have a sentient evilness.
now that i think about it, my beliefs on "good" and "evil" are summed up nicely in a book i once read. i don't think i can quote it correctly here (it has been too many years) but i will try.
"there is no good or evil, black or white. just many horrible shades of gray."

[The Middle Way]

only humans can be evil.

i think it comes from within and is completely manmade. 

my jury is still out on sharks, bears and mosquitoes though. i think they really might have a sentient evilness.

Well, do mosquitoes pre-exist humanity then? 

nature is red in tooth and claw (i've been wanting a reason to say that, so thanks!) but it is supremely indifferent. 

I don't think nature is indifferent, just disinterested. Supremely.

[HelenW]

You're gonna hafta define evil for me to really say.

Is it like porn, undefinable but you know it when you see it?  Or can we define what it is?  Is it subjective only?  Can it be nailed down objectively?  Is it relative or absolute?

All these questions need answers, methinks, if we're to talk about it.

What is it?

smiles & hugs
Emelye

[cindianna_jones]

Polar bears eat seals.  But they are really cuddly and cute.  They can't be evil.

[RebeccaFog]

Humanity IS evil.

Get with the program.   

[The Middle Way]

You're gonna hafta define evil for me to really say.

I was so afraid of this reply I remembered to put evil in quotes.

What is it?

I don't know. Is it an ineffable force, like, God, maybe?

Now. If God is the absolute creator, and by extension the controller, of the World, or the Universe even, then this 'evil' concept comes from where, exactly?

And if we were to 'do evil', does 'God' not own half of that? Having, you know, started the whole ball rolling, one way or another...

Or does it work some other way?

tmw

[The Middle Way]

Yes, it does.  According to the Holy Scriptures, Lucifer was a very high-ranked angel of God but deviated from good and evolved as evil.  Therefore, the devil was the first one to "show" evil long before humanity existed.

Ok, then. Let me see if I got this right: the seeds of evil were sown in heaven. IE: essentially, that God created the devil and hence, made evil work. (Or was God just that bad a judge of character when He staffed His organization, "up there"?)

Hmmm... begins to sound like one of those episodes of South Park, to me.

Actually, here is what I think (NB: this is just 'what I think' and does not try to cross out what you might think):

This God versus The Devil idea is a story that means something else, which is more subtle.

Once upon a time, there was everything in potential, before the clock started ticking. Whether  it was inevitable or not, matter came into being (stuff happened), and time kicked in, the mama heartbeat. Now, time wounds all heels: *The Destroyer of Worlds*.

Matter (which was always imbued with 'spirit', aka 'God') can be more or less shown to decay (though at a more fundamental level it can take virtually forever). Dust to dust, as they say. Same as it ever was.

Now, because we are somehow 'here', materially, we might identify strenuously with our form, which can be shown to be impermanent. We might do stuff that strictly benefits this incomplete and decadent vessel, at the expense of the rest of the picture (whatever that might or might not be). This might be bad stuff to do. Because material(ity) was always there, in potential, the seeds of entropy, cycles of birth and death, might be inevitable, we might say that The Devil is in The Details.

Some tend to identify strictly with the form ("this *here* is what I know, and that's that"), some with the not form (and ascribe everything to that which is ineffable)...

But there is more than one path (maybe more than two) we can go by, in the long run...

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How ev'rything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

tmw

PS:

Dust to dust, as they say.

or, dust to...



That's a reliquary:

"The relics are mainly pearl-like 'beads' collected from the ashes of spiritual masters after their cremation."

[Squirrel]

And here I thought that it was Coyote who stirred things up.

S

P.S. None... I see dead people

[The Middle Way]

dead people? do you mean ghosts?

where do you see them? can you see this 'seeing?' is this perceived perception something like the reflection of the moon in a pond, rather than the moon 'itself'?

yours,
stirrer of the soupless soup

[cindianna_jones]

dead people? do you mean ghosts?

in the reliquary

[The Middle Way]

well yeah, I guessed that much, but, elsewhere?
your post is only confusing to me 'cause of the stupid movie that has 'I see dead people' as its hook, as they say in the trade.

from The Spook Show by Whoopi Goldberg

I smoke too much. Russell R Russell smoked too much and he died from it. My husband and his friends lit Russell R Russell up, like a brown cigar from Cuba, they smoked him, they smoked him right down until he was gone. But not all of him would burn. He had lovely teeth and his smile wouldn't burn.
...

nota



and/or: what gets stirred?

[LostInTime]

Before humanity there was nature and thus no evil as it took humanity to define the concept.

-------------

Nature acts without intent,
so cannot be described
as acting with benevolence,
nor malevolence to any thing.

In this respect, the Tao is just the same,
though in reality it should be said
that nature follows the rule of Tao.

Therefore, even when he seems to act
in manner kind or benevolent,
the sage is not acting with such intent,
for in conscious matters such as these,
he is amoral and indifferent.

The sage retains tranquility,
and is not by speech or thought disturbed,
and even less by action which is contrived.
His actions are spontaneous,
as are his deeds towards his fellow men.

By this means he is empty of desire,
and his energy is not drained from him.

[The Middle Way]

Before humanity there was nature and thus no evil as it took humanity to define the concept.

and/or refine the concept.

yours
shaken not stirred

[RebeccaFog]

Before humanity there was nature and thus no evil as it took humanity to define the concept.

   For shame.  Birds have been around since before the puny humans & birds are intensely evil. Just ask a chicken.

[The Middle Way]

Before humanity there was nature and thus no evil as it took humanity to define the concept.

   For shame.  Birds have been around since before the puny humans & birds are intensely evil. Just ask a chicken.

The eagle picks my eye
The worm he licks my bones
I feel so suicidal
Just like Dylan's Mr. Jones
Lonely, wanna die
If I ain't dead already
Girl you know the reason why.

yours
chicken soup

And here I thought that it was Coyote who stirred things up.

"When the mind stirs all sorts of things are created and then
all kinds of mind appear"

...

'"It is the eyes that see and the mind that
knows is not the eyes: to say that it sees is wrong.'"

"If the eyes can see, when you are in
a room, do you see the door outside? Those who are dead
and still have eyes, should see things if they still see, how can
they be dead?"

yours
mind's not-eye and/or eye don't mind

[Terra]

That depends, when do you consider humanity to have started? When were we no longer a part of nature, when were we considered human? (I beleive in creationalism as a guide that coexists with darwin)

Even if you found that point, the concept of evil and good is a flowing one. Where those bounderies for a christion lie is far different then those of a islamic. Same thing for religions past as well as societies. Remember the mayans, they practiced live human sacrifice. Even the nazis (I'm not supporting them, making a point only) were dangerous because they thought they were in the right.

Evil, good, truth, lie are all concepts that are as fluid as water and time. So my final answer would be that evil was born the same day we started calling ourselves human.

[RebeccaFog]

Humanity predates Evil.