Why Do I Feel Uncomfortable When I See a Very "Unpassable" Transwomen

[melissa90299]

Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

[Kate]

It's about your own insecurity. You're not grounded in who you are. Is your reaction unusual... no. Is it especially healthy... no.

Exactly. I'm guilty of it too, and I think it just exposes my OWN fears of never passing and so on. It's not THEM I'm ashamed and embarassed of, it's ME.

~Kate~

[debbiej]

Exactly. I'm guilty of it too, and I think it just exposes my OWN fears of never passing and so on. It's not THEM I'm ashamed and embarassed of, it's ME.

Your not guilty of anything but having a natural reaction towards something, that in this society, is not the norm. Of this I am certain. It happens to me everyday. I live in county that is 98% white. We were at the county seat last week and there was a black man walking down the street. I saw African Americans all the time when I lived in the Chicago area. I had very little reaction when I saw someone of African decent when we lived near Chicago. Now in our white county I had a different reaction because it was unexpected. Did I go hail down the next pickup truck or alert the authorities? NO. Did you go alert the Drag police? I bet not. We've grown beyond that (I hope).

I also bet that if you had an opportunity to talk to the person and hear her story you would react differently the next time you saw her.

Its okay. You're okay. I'm okay. The fact that we recognize that we shouldn't rely only on that initial natural response proves it.

Debbie

[Nikki]

Would an "unpassable transwoman" be a woman that tries to pass as trans but anyone can tell she's a GG? I know a couple of very "passable transwomen" I don't know if they trans or GG but they can sure "pass" for trans. You have to "pass" when you are trying to represent yourself as something you aren't. I have to "pass" every time I go out as a guy, but I don't have to pass as a woman neither do the women you are judging. Maybe if you put less focus on being pretty and FFS and BA and whatever else to make GG's jealous, instead of seeing "unpassable transwomen" you would just see "women".

[Sandi]

Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended.

I do feel something, but it isn't offense. It seems similar to the sympathy I felt around my late aunt. She was  big boned, broad chinned and often taken for a man. She didn't like it of course, but was used to dealing with it.

OTOH I have no time for transsexuals who will out another intentionally. That happened when a person I knew from a Milwaukee transgender group came to Janesville to go shopping with me and another TS friend. She arrived wearing as T that said TRANS AND PROUD (or close, don't recall exact wording). She wouldn't change, so my friend and I refused to go in public with her. Not because we were ashamed of being transsexual, but because we didn't want to be clocked.

[mavieenrose]

I think your reaction is totally understandable Melissa given the number of images of 'perfect' woman and manhood that are projected at us every day by the media, and also given the continual reinforcement of these stereotypes by so many individuals in the trans community. That said, reactions like this do make me feel uncomfortable as I can't help feeling that in some way there's an element of eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) lurking, menacingly behind the scenes.  It wasn't long ago that Hitler's troops were gassing people they considered inferior or abnormal (in those days all of us in the trans community would probably have suffered, not just those who didn't 'pass'...)

For me the important thing is to recognise that you felt like this, and to then try to accept that this is really only about your fears, your discomfort and your prejudices.  Maybe the person you have seen is happy (or at least happier than they once were...), has good friends and/or family that love them and is carving out a better life for themselves than they might otherwise have had.

What most often upsets me when I meet people who do not fit the social norms (and this can be for so many different reasons, not just trans...) is the idea that they could be lonely, feel unloved, have financial difficulties and be the victim of discrimination.

I've been lucky in my life; I am a white european so I don't suffer racial discrimination, don't have a disability so I can access all the facilities I want to in my city and unless I tell people that I wasn't born a girl they never know.  Others don't always have so much luck and they may well need our support.

MVER XXX

[Maud]

I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

I never feel uncomfortable or anything why should I? If they don't pass to that degree then I'm such a contrast to them that no one would ever read me by assosiation, if that's the typical public image of trannies then i'm perfectly happy for everyone to see us that way because it makes it easier for me to just blend.

[melissa90299]

I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

I never feel uncomfortable or anything why should I? If they don't pass to that degree then I'm such a contrast to them that no one would ever read me by assosiation, if that's the typical public image of trannies then i'm perfectly happy for everyone to see us that way because it makes it easier for me to just blend.

Besides feeling uncomfortable, I also have a feeling of superiority to these people, which also is not healthy, good point that these people are CDing in public, CDing is so foreign to me that I forget that even exists.

[Nero]

I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

Can you tell a CD from an unpassable TS?

[Kate]

Besides feeling uncomfortable, I also have a feeling of superiority to these people, which also is not healthy, good point that these people are CDing in public, CDing is so foreign to me that I forget that even exists.

Well, I'm not sure it's fair to consider anyone who doesn't pass a CDr (not that there's anything wrong with CDing anyway). There will always be TSs who can't pass very well, no matter what they do. Heck, despite the constant reassurances I get, I still fear I may never pass very well (in the end, only experience will cure that - or prove me right). But I have to transition anyway and just do my best.

I have to assume these unpassable women are doing the same?

~Kate~

[Keira]

I think that many unpassables are CD, so if they don't pass, hey, I didn't pass too well without hormones either so its no skin off my back. Its almost impossible to distinguish a CD from an unpassable TS, so I don't try. Even with CD's there are those that pass very well (usually young) and those that don't.

Though, you seldom see CD's outside some neighborhoods during the day. It is mostly at night that you can see them in certain areas.

What bothers me is unpassable TS's in all senses from presentation to voice to attitude taking the mantle of representing all TS's in the media. That used to happen all the time and for a long time it put me off transitioning as I had no positive role models. These days, there is at least a balance, where a more varied number of TS are public. Its like in the time when the only gay people knew where the flaming ones, while they represent a small minority of their pop.

[LostInTime]

Just curious on how you know that they are T.

I have met some pretty manly looking women, a few I had to look up at in order to look them in the eye. Deep voices, light facial hair that they would bleach or pluck out. Bushy eyebrows. Also knew for a fact that they were natal females.

I think sometimes others assume too much.

[melissa90299]

I generally fail to care, if theyr'e obviously not TS just CDing in public then i just have a chuckle to myself.

She makes a good point, I think you can make a good guess, in retrospect, I think the people I saw were CDs.  I mean one could not exist going around looking like that 24/7. OTOH they could be TGs on their first time out although a TG/TS would probably have more going on their first time out than these folks.

[Shana A]

Early on, I used to joke that I couldn't pass my way out of a paper bag, on a good day. At a certain point in my process of discovery I decided that I don't need to pass as anything, people see what they want to see. Some might see a frumpy woman, others might see a man in a dress, I'd guess that some others might not notice or care at all. I can't control anyone's perception of me, all I can control  is the way in which I might wish to express my gender, and how I feel about whether or not I pass.

We have all been barraged by negative media perceptions of transpeople our entire lives. I believe that everyone of us carries a certain amount of internalized transphobia, it is our choice to recognize this, and if we choose, to try and overcome it. I also hope (and work) torwards a future day in which it is OK not have to "pass", when it will OK to openly and safely express ones gender, wherever on the continuum it might be.

zythyra

[Maud]

Can you tell a CD from an unpassable TS?

Yes.

[mavieenrose]

What bothers me is unpassable TS's in all senses from presentation to voice to attitude taking the mantle of representing all TS's in the media. That used to happen all the time and for a long time it put me off transitioning as I had no positive role models.

Yes I can understand that Keira, it's so frustrating when an individual or minority claims to represent everybody else.  If people want to talk about their lives and their experiences to others that's fine by me, but they really should remember they're only experts on their own lives.

Sadly, it's an unfortunate fact that in the trans-community only certain types of people will tend to want to go public and this inevitably distorts the public's image of what it means to be trans.

MVER XXX

[SusanK]

Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman...

And why is she causing you to be uneasy, for you or her? Or for the fear others may use her to define you? I'm sorry that you feel uneasy in the presence of non-passing ts', but why is it a problem for you if you're getting on with your life? What if the situation were reversed, and you her and she you, would you expect such a reaction for another human being, and perhaps someone who you would expect something other than rejection? And even knowing it's not reversed, what do you think others think of you? Maybe in their eyes you're not passable (not having met you)? Are they just being nice for the same reasons you feel for the other ts? Imagine the pain in her heart when they know other ts' don't like her because of her decisions in life to be who she is?

Just my thoughts. When presented with such a situation about someone else, I remember the adage, "For there but the grace of God go I." Would the Dalami Lama reject her, or you for your view of her? It's normal to feel uncomfortable with others outside your view of people, and it takes more to step outside your own world to accept others as they are in the face of your own feelings. That's the hardest thing people can do, simple accept people without prejudice.

[melissa90299]

I am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

I am in early recovery and still trying to perfect the skill of not taking other people's inventory. That is one reason these feelings bother me. I am trying to live with the philosophy that I am no better or no worse than anyone else but it is easier said than done.

[katia]

melissa, do you think that a gg would feel uncomfortable when she sees   a Very "Unpassable" Transwoman?

[melissa90299]

melissa, do you think that a gg would feel uncomfortable when she sees   a Very "Unpassable" Transwoman?

Some would and some wouldn't depending on their point of view but not for the same reasons. Was there a point to your question?