SRS

[Lexi Belle]

I've been looking in to a lot of things about SRS, I like to take pride in being well informed about just about everything from here to 5 years down the road when I have SRS planned.

I've come across many interesting sites regarding SRS, originally I had looked at the colon version, then thought... pain, possible ill effects, I don't know if lubricating tissue is worth that.  Then I looked in to how close or far we are from creating self lubricating tissue for neo-vaginas in a more reliable manner. I came across 2 sites.  1 of them I think would be cool to have answered by some people who have had their SRS for a while.

http://www.spanglefish.com/hillingdonstresstherapy/index.asp?pageid=387156

This site suggests that the neo-vagina not matter the material used will eventually adapt to the typical pH levels and mucosa-like tissue of a natal female. 

http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=2679

This site (picture) suggests that there may be a new way to develop neo-vaginas in the future.

Thoughts?

[vlmitchell]

For neo-vaginas, as far as I have heard from everyone, they *can* be self lubricating to a degree but not like the mucosal tissue that you'd really want. Someone else will have to chime in here who's had the procedure as I haven't really experienced what the tactile features of the results feel like.

The buccal procedure seems like the best option at current and the technology to implement it is well known at this point. Heck, they grew a nose on a dude's head with a similar technique recently. The problem, as stated in the link is that you'd have to find a surgeon who would be willing to give it a go, have the money to pay a lab to custom build the part, have additional money to pay a much larger team, and so on.

It's a really promising field right now and it's one of the reasons that I've been putting GRS as a lower priority right now *but* I'm still more than aware that I'll probably be one of the first to actually say "sure, why not" if I go this route due to the fact that no GRS surgeon has actually converted to this method and it'd be a completely new thing even with the best surgeons like McGinn, etc.

I'm probably about ready to start testing the waters with surgeons here and I'll post updates as I know more but, at current, the state of the art just isn't ready for scaled-up production on this technique.

[Lexi Belle]

For neo-vaginas, as far as I have heard from everyone, they *can* be self lubricating to a degree but not like the mucosal tissue that you'd really want. Someone else will have to chime in here who's had the procedure as I haven't really experienced what the tactile features of the results feel like.

The buccal procedure seems like the best option at current and the technology to implement it is well known at this point. Heck, they grew a nose on a dude's head with a similar technique recently. The problem, as stated in the link is that you'd have to find a surgeon who would be willing to give it a go, have the money to pay a lab to custom build the part, have additional money to pay a much larger team, and so on.

It's a really promising field right now and it's one of the reasons that I've been putting GRS as a lower priority right now *but* I'm still more than aware that I'll probably be one of the first to actually say "sure, why not" if I go this route due to the fact that no GRS surgeon has actually converted to this method and it'd be a completely new thing even with the best surgeons like McGinn, etc.

I'm probably about ready to start testing the waters with surgeons here and I'll post updates as I know more but, at current, the state of the art just isn't ready for scaled-up production on this technique.

Actually read that article though, it suggests that the tissue over time with the proper hormonal balance will morph in to the same exact lubricating tissue that you would find in a natal female.

[eli77]

I had the inversion technique courtesy of Brassard a year and a half ago. I don't know about "same exact."  I know that my gear is thinner, more delicate and less flexible than a cis woman's. But... I am definitely self-lubricating. And orgasms are like waterworks.

Of course results vary. Not all post-ops are alike, just as not all cis women are alike.

Also, what's wrong with just using lube? I use lube for some things, regardless. You make it sound like self-lubrication is a superpower. Really it just makes certain kinds of sex slightly more convenient and stains your underwear.

[Lexi Belle]

I had the inversion technique courtesy of Brassard a year and a half ago. I don't know about "same exact."  I know that my gear is thinner, more delicate and less flexible than a cis woman's. But... I am definitely self-lubricating. And orgasms are like waterworks.

Of course results vary. Not all post-ops are alike, just as not all cis women are alike.

Also, what's wrong with just using lube? I use lube for some things, regardless. You make it sound like self-lubrication is a superpower. Really it just makes certain kinds of sex slightly more convenient and stains your underwear.

I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I'd just rather not have to use it if I don't have to. ;p

[anjaq]

I get some lubrication 13 years post op but not enough. I admit I dont know if this would change if I would get into a really arousing situation which is what causes this normally. I had a mixed surgery - inversion + colon flap. But if I feel with a finger, it certainly feels mucous-ish. I think using lube is rather ok though. The reason they sell it in massive amounts in drugstores and even supermarkets here is certainly not just transwomen and gay men who use it - lots of non trans women have issues with inadequate lubrication as well, esp when using condoms.

The futuristic approaches - i guess there is hope, but it should not keep you from doing what you need to do unless it seriously is already in the testing stage at least, so there has been at least one surgery perfomed with that. Or maybe if you feel that way become the first one yourself if that is already offered. Everything else that seems "just around the corner" - my experience with such things as a scientist is that this usually means that it may be coming soon, more likely though it will take another 3 years, another 5 years and then after that another x years - it just gets postponed. So I think to wait for techniques that are not available yet is probably not the best option. if you have to wait anyways, thats fine then, but I'd rather have it get over with than delaying SRS for 10 years in a vague hope that things will change.

[Lexi Belle]

I get some lubrication 13 years post op but not enough. I admit I dont know if this would change if I would get into a really arousing situation which is what causes this normally. I had a mixed surgery - inversion + colon flap. But if I feel with a finger, it certainly feels mucous-ish. I think using lube is rather ok though. The reason they sell it in massive amounts in drugstores and even supermarkets here is certainly not just transwomen and gay men who use it - lots of non trans women have issues with inadequate lubrication as well, esp when using condoms.

The futuristic approaches - i guess there is hope, but it should not keep you from doing what you need to do unless it seriously is already in the testing stage at least, so there has been at least one surgery perfomed with that. Or maybe if you feel that way become the first one yourself if that is already offered. Everything else that seems "just around the corner" - my experience with such things as a scientist is that this usually means that it may be coming soon, more likely though it will take another 3 years, another 5 years and then after that another x years - it just gets postponed. So I think to wait for techniques that are not available yet is probably not the best option. if you have to wait anyways, thats fine then, but I'd rather have it get over with than delaying SRS for 10 years in a vague hope that things will change.

I'm postponing  myself to make sure this is something I want without having regrets like we've all seen before

[Cindy]

I'm postponing  myself to make sure this is something I want without having regrets like we've all seen before

I think that is very sensible. The stats are very straight forward. In Whittle's study in Europe the suicide rate for pre transiton was 33%, for post SRs it was 27%. SRS can cure gender dysphoria but not the other problems we may have.

That stat is often lost, but if you talk to post SRS women you will find that their experience of depression etc post surgery can be quite significant.

And yes there are multiple reasons!

The sensible rule is to take care and talk to your therapist pre and post.

Suicide tends to be permanent and the post mortem psychiatric examination of suicide is not very efficient.

[Marina mtf]

 

LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.

You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.

You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.

[Northern Jane]

Actually read that article though, it suggests that the tissue over time with the proper hormonal balance will morph in to the same exact lubricating tissue that you would find in a natal female.

Well I have been carrying mine around for 40 years and that hasn't quite happened. The skin is softer and more moist than 'external skin' but doesn't produce much lubrication (that seems to come from somewhere else but it is hard to pinpoint). If the tissue was going to "morph" I sure wish it would get more elasticity!!!

[Lexi Belle]

LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.

You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.

You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.

Yeah, but I think it's fairly common for Transsexuals to want to be a normal person in that particular gender, not to say someone without SRS isn't a normal woman or man, but I'd feel more complete personally if I was more in line with natal women.  It'd be beneficial to myself more than anything.  I DO feel it can play an important role in the curing of gender dysphoria as it's a key physical characteristic of the gender.

[Lexi Belle]

Well I have been carrying mine around for 40 years and that hasn't quite happened. The skin is softer and more moist than 'external skin' but doesn't produce much lubrication (that seems to come from somewhere else but it is hard to pinpoint). If the tissue was going to "morph" I sure wish it would get more elasticity!!!

But does it produce more than it had initially?  It even says that some natal woman have trouble with lubrication.

[anjaq]

Nidalexi, I guess it really is a wise choice if you do not feel the immediate need to have SRS to postpone it a while. Better that than rushing into it without being certain about it. This has happened quite a few times and is not pleasant. I read somewhere that up to 10% have some sort of regret (dont know if that includes complications or not). I was uncertain for a while but had a very defined point where it "clicked" and I just knew I need this, and it was the best choice. At that point I could not postpone it either to wait for some better technique, as that decision really made it much worse to delay.

Cindi, thats an horrifying statistic - really 27% of post-op transwomen commit suicide? Thats hard to imagine. I would have thought the higest rate is in TS who do not transition at all, much less already in those who transition but that SRS for a significant number of people makes this even better. Ok, there is a 5% difference there... Insurance payment for SRS here is in part based on the reasoning that it can help prevent suffering and suicides...

Marina, I think it is about both - gender and sex. Just we dont really say "sex dysphoria" because it sounds awful. The distinction as I use it is social (gender) dysphoria and body (sex) dysphoria. For most of us it is both, but for some the social aspects are primary, for others the body aspects are primary. For me, body dysphoria was a biggie. My social environment was not that sterotypically gendered, so while it was not really bearable in the long run, it was bearable for a bit. But at my coming out to myself age at about 21 and transition age at 23, I had serious dysphoria with the body which was dealing with the last effects of puberty. Not just the "downstairs" but also the rest. This is what drove me at last to a fast route to SRS and HRT. But this is individual. I tend to think that late transitioners have more social dysphoria as they got kind of used to the body they have with time but experienced more of the social conflicts with time, for younger TS I can imagine it being a bit different on average as there are a lot of body changes happening that are very noticeable but there was not that much time to get social conflicts (not that they did not happen of course, just the total sum of it is less because of the younger age). I think in the end what many of us want is not only to cure gender dysphoria or body dysphoria but also to be coherent in gender and sex as most people are. Many want to have a gender and sex that matches.

Re the lubrication - I also dont know really where it comes from - probably in part of the colon flap, I had due to complications, but I am not sure. The skin is definitely a lot different from initially. A gynaecologist I went to once was trying hard to find the uterus as I did not tell her about it before, so it seems that it was not totally obvious at least. What I found was that there is some lubrication coming from what used to be the prostate gland. It is not lubing inside though, but at the urea. Orgasms tend to, as was described in the article mentioned in the OP, increase that massively. Which of course is only partly useful as that is more or less the wrong way around .

[suzifrommd]

You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.

According to a poll I took a while back (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,144698.0.html) there's a lot of variety in the reasons why women had SRS.

The number one reason was that they wanted their body to be the correct shape. Number two was that they couldn't stand their genitals, number three was that they hated their body. Sexual opportunities was tied for fourth with wanting to feel more like a woman.

[anjaq]

I feel that is right, Joules. At least thats how I experience it.

[Jenna Marie]

Well, I haven't had mine examined with a microscope. But I definitely am self-lubricating, the tissue feels the same as my wife's (soft, slightly ridged, moist, and delicate), the scent and taste are similar to hers, and a gynecologist did an exam and didn't realize it was surgically created. So I'm reasonably comfortable that mine falls within the range of acceptable variations. I don't lubricate as much as some women, and the "aesthetic details" aren't the same as what's in porn, but that's a bad judge of normal anyway.

It's quite likely that someone with a microscope actually would find some differences, but quite frankly I don't care. (It is, however, perfectly valid that someone else might! I don't care overmuch about depth, either, and that's something that matters to a lot of women.) The main visual/tactile difference to me is that the vaginal vault doesn't collapse when not in use, so I have my established depth and a bit of additional width whether I'm aroused or not, whereas a cis woman's vagina tightens and shortens considerably when she's not aroused.

Personally, I'd prefer what I have to the buccal method, but that's largely because I'm led to believe I have *more* sensation than is typical for a cis woman - there aren't many nerves deeper inside for them - and I'd rather have feeling and limited lubrication than the reverse. Again, though, that's personal preference only.

[FrancisAnn]

Five years seems like a very long time to wait?

For myself I regret not completing SRS long ago so I could have enjoyed a more normal life. Perhaps the procedures will improve for all of us over time so we can all become normal sexually active complete women.

Good luck GF.

[Lexi Belle]

Five years seems like a very long time to wait?

For myself I regret not completing SRS long ago so I could have enjoyed a more normal life. Perhaps the procedures will improve for all of us over time so we can all become normal sexually active complete women.

Good luck GF.

I'm only 19, so I feel it's appropriate.  Knowing me that might get chopped in half or more, it really just depends on how much assurance I get throughout my transition.  5 years is just the maximum time I want to wait.  (Also the last year I'll be eligible to get free SRS through insurance)

I am almost dead certain I want it, but I'd rather be safe with the scary regrets I've come across.

[eli77]

Cindi, thats an horrifying statistic - really 27% of post-op transwomen commit suicide? Thats hard to imagine. I would have thought the higest rate is in TS who do not transition at all, much less already in those who transition but that SRS for a significant number of people makes this even better. Ok, there is a 5% difference there... Insurance payment for SRS here is in part based on the reasoning that it can help prevent suffering and suicides...

This is Whittle's study: http://www.pfc.org.uk/pdf/EngenderedPenalties.pdf

On page 78 they report finding that 34.4% of adult trans people have attempted suicide or self-harm in the UK (a lower rate than in the US fyi). I'm not sure where the 27% post-op rate was pulled from. But if it's being compared to Whittle's findings, then it's attempted suicide/self harm, not actual suicide. It's also a lifetime figure. Sure, lots of post-op women have attempted suicide. I have. That was pre-transition though.

Here is a real study about suicide rates post-op if you are interested: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

It indicates that there are unquestionably still risks after transition, and that suicide attempt rates are still abysmally high. We still live in the same transphobic society that we did pre-transition, so I can't really sustain a lot of surprise at that discovery. It is nowhere near our lifetime rates, though.

Nidalexi, I guess it really is a wise choice if you do not feel the immediate need to have SRS to postpone it a while. Better that than rushing into it without being certain about it. This has happened quite a few times and is not pleasant. I read somewhere that up to 10% have some sort of regret (dont know if that includes complications or not). I was uncertain for a while but had a very defined point where it "clicked" and I just knew I need this, and it was the best choice. At that point I could not postpone it either to wait for some better technique, as that decision really made it much worse to delay.

I'm not sure where you read this, but most studies suggest a rate of regret that is much lower than that. For example: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1024086814364


That said, SRS is not something I generally encourage. Unlike HRT, it's definitely a one way trip. There are lots of potential complications and issues. You have to do maintenance for the rest of your life. And some of the people who do have regrets end up with something like my pre-surgery body dysphoria, for which I can only offer my deepest sympathies. SRS is a very private, personal issue. And most trans communities are pretty aggressively pro-SRS. Don't let that get under your skin, don't let anyone else make that decision for you. If you can do without a major invasive surgery, you should consider avoiding it. And if you do decide to hold off, don't ever imagine that makes you an inch less of a woman or a female.

LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.

You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.

You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.

By that definition, I never had gender dysphoria. For me, it's always been about my body. Living as a woman is just the inevitable side effect of my transition. It was never something I cared much about.

And THAT is why I strongly encourage caution with SRS. There are a lot of very different people with very different experiences of their lives and bodies under this trans* umbrella. Just because I can say that I had SRS only a year and a half into my transition and that it was one of the best decisions of my life, doesn't mean you will be able to.

Please be careful and stay safe.

[FrancisAnn]

I understand it's a big step perhaps, however you are just correcting your gender. And that is no reason at all to consider any harm to yourself. I do not understand why so many people harm themselves over this issue?

Obviously it's your choice however the emotions will never go away.

Again good luck & enjoy your change & new life. The younger the better for HRT to remove most all of the wrong T hormones.