Pre-Op transsexuals Are Still Male . . .

[Northern Jane]

It really is about sex, or the changing of it by definition, NOBODY is going to change my Gender

YOU TELL 'EM TERRI-GENE!

In a strange sense of timing, "Law & Order: SVU" was on last night and aired "Fallacy" (episode 4.21 from 2003), the story about a pre-op who killed her boyfriend's brother to protect her secret. It is a particularly well-done portrayal (in my humble opinion) and touches on many of the problems with being pre-op.

[beth]

               I agree with Terri as far as the history goes.   The word TRANSsexual was a misnomer in my opinion since "TRANS" suggests movement as in transition.

               The word for the surgery needed should be Genital Correction Surgery  GCS in my mind.  Transsexual would be dropped in my world and replaced with something like "Misbodied" to more clearly illustrate what the condition is.


beth

[Leigh]

GRS>>>>>>>>>>> genital reconstruction surgery

[beth]

   It's better than SRS but "reconstruction" sounds like an option rather than a correction IMO.

[DawnL]

Beth, in answer to your question, I  think my friend chooses to be the way she is. But you know, Northern Jane, I really think that she's well past the RLT stage, since she's been living for fifteen years as a woman. Sorry Dawn, but my post is not a crock. She has had everything legally changed.

Gina, I was not saying your post was a crock, I was saying the idea that a full time non-op transwoman is still technically male is a crock.  Sadly, there are some transsexuals who believe that unless you have had SRS or are actively seeking SRS, you're only TG and technically still male.  On the other hand, just because someone looks very feminine, per this woman's website, doesn't mean she's a woman.  There are plenty of CDs who can do the same thing.

Dawn

[gina_taylor]

Very good points there Terri. You've really given me alot of thought about everything.

I remember Virginia Prince. Kelly Stevens, a past member of Susan's had mentioned her to me, and I had forgotten that she had coined the phrase "Transgendered". More or less people have over exagerrated the term these days, and I agree with you that the word 'Transgender doesn't really hold much meaning anymore either.

But as for SRS vs GRS, the way that I see it is that we are changing our sex not our gender. When a doctor pulls the new born baby out from the mother's womb, he announces the 'sex' not the 'gender.' of the baby.But I do agree with you that as long as I am recognized in the common public as a woman or a female, I'll be happy. 


I'm sorry Dawn if I offended you. No hard feelings.  I was just reading Gia Darling's website and she is quite happy with the way she is and she says that femininity is in the mind and not between the legs. So I understand your point there.

I hope that you all enjoyed reading Dawn's Bio. I found it to be very interesting.

Gina

[Terri-Gene]

Just me I guess, but it occurs to me if a lot of people spent less time wondering what to call themselves and working for what they want instead, there would be a lot happier bunch of people out there.  Remember all the sayings of the past, like "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me".

Thats only a little bit true as we all know that words do hurt, but given the situation, it is just one of those things we have to take in stride for our own mental protection.  It is a matter of what you are, not what people without a clue call you.

I'd buy that particular definition of GRS Leigh, but I hear it used in several ways I can't agree with.

Terri

[Leigh]

It is surgery plain and simple.

The only reason there is debate is to find something that is acceptable to society.  It is the same at the cd/tv/tg/ts/pre/post arguement.  Justification for where or what.

Some dr's are board certified plastic surgeons, urologists or both.  So you are having plastic surgery or urology problems needing an operation.  Thats all anyone else needs to know and probably more than they care about.

Leigh

[gina_taylor]

Last night I had the opportunity of meeting Dawn, and I was a little surprised. She wasn't quite what I had expected from her young pictures, and she actually looked older than she was. She introduced me to a friend, and later that night to my surprise I found out that she is a transsexual who has been living full time for the last seven years. She was very convincing! Unfortunately due to a heart problem, she cannot start HRT, so she's content with breast forms, and as you know those that are not on HRT cannot do SRS. But she's happy now being able to live full time as a  woman.

Gina

[Cassandra]

Not being able to do HRT does not exclude SRS. However if she is content with the status quoue, good for her. I met Denise this past month and she was quite passable. HRT is not the end all be all Gina. There are options should you find you cannot go down that road. Don't fret hon. Just keep your eyes on the prize.

Cassie

[Terri-Gene]

whats more important, looking like a girl or being one?  And being on HRT or not has absolutely no bearing on the ability to withstand SRS unless there are health reasons that would prevent it anyway.

Terri

[Danielegrl]

   It's better than SRS but "reconstruction" sounds like an option rather than a correction IMO.

GRS = genital reconstructive surgery make sense to me because genital reconstruction is purely cosmetic. Once a person has had an orchiectomy they have done all there is needed both mtf and ftm to get the gender change by social security and on birth certificates.

After an orchiectomy its purely cosmetic. Thats the same for a FTM who gets a historectomy.. Many DR's will give you the letter for saying you had a gender change if you had an orchy and name change and live as a woman. This is the same for FTM's.. If they have a histo and name change and live as a man thats all they need. anything else is purely cosmetic legally.


However, jails and some prejudice people will say differently.

[Terri-Gene]

I could agree with your logic Danielgirl and there would be many who would not seek surgery anyway who would agree with you, but for the few, no amount of legal papers will make it for them.  It's a matter of knowing you are no different and subject to the same things as other women.

I'm orchie, and I possess absolutely no male identification and have lived, worked  and identified as a female for many years before HRT which I am now into since Sept of 2003, and I can tell you right now it does nothing toward relieving my view of myself nor would any more legal paperwork I could obtain.  It's not about paperwork, it's about what is and is not and until I am no different I will not feel completely female, even though realistically I will probably never use a vagina, it's just that it will be there, even if it is never used.  Thats the only way I understand my condition and nothing short of that completes or fullfills anything.

Cosmetic?  About as cosmetic as a triple bypass to a heart patient.  I see nothing cosmetic about it, it is a necessary proceedure for my continued mental health and ability to funtion as a human being.


Terri

[DawnL]

GRS = genital reconstructive surgery make sense to me because genital reconstruction is purely cosmetic. Once a person has had an orchiectomy they have done all there is needed both mtf and ftm to get the gender change by social security and on birth certificates.

This procedure is not cosmetic to transsexuals.  I think that definition (GRS = genital reconstructive surgery) works in that many transsexuals view their condition as a birth defect and by extension, their genitals as a birth defect.  So in that sense, the surgery is correcting a defect, hence is reconstruction.  There is considerable argument that those who do not seek surgery are not transsexual, who, by definition have the overwhelming desire to make themselves as much like the opposite gender as possible.  For these people, there is nothing cosmetic about this procedure and I agree with Terri-Gene that I won't feel completely female until that "thing" has been fixed.

Dawn

[gina_taylor]

I'm sorry, but I do beg to differ about the useage of hormones. In this area, I've done my homework, and I know  that 98% of the surgeons doing SRS require that the patient must be on hormones for a certain length of time. Now in answer to your question Terri, I feel it is both. I watched Dawn play a game of pool, and some of her mannerisms were masculine instead of feminine, and it got me thinking that she looks like a woman but acts like a man. It could be vice versa. Thoughts to ponder 

Gina

[Victoria L.]

That really does offend me.

Just because I was born like this does not make me a male.

People always tell me not to judge a book by the cover. but they're always doing it, just like if I told them I was a girl, and they started to hate me, that'd be very much judging the book by the cover.

Inside is what always matters... That's what I've been told, and I kind of wish my mom would stay true to that...

[Sara]

So true Victoria, I have known for many years, even before I was molested by a man at the age of 5 that i was a female. I played with paper dolls, did makeup and hair on my sisters and they did the same for me, I even got my best friend to join in (he was a male), after many years my best friend said to me it's ok if you are gay I still like you as a friend. WOW thanks but I am not gay, he thought because I never had a girlfriend for so many years that I was gay. The truth is, I never identified with a male female relationship nor a male relationship for that matter because of the man who molested me. I spent years trying to find out why I was the way I was and bended to pressure from society to be a male. I had so many problems with testosterone it was not funny, it created more stress in my life than anyone could imagine. I can hear the words even now of my then pshcyatrist "theres nothing wrong with you, you are just a red blooded male" but then he told my mother that I would face a life long battle with gender issues. So I guess the theory behind being born a male you are a male or are pre-op transexuals still males is stupid. I hate my genitals and have always wanted them to look like a females, my shapely body resembled a female body, I have always been very far removed from the male identity everyone else has given me and to this day I cannot relate to males on a mateship basis. SO the answer for me is yes a pre-op transexual is always a female first. Her mind is what makes her a woman, not HRT not GRS. Do I think that males brains can change by taking hormones hell yes.

Sara.

[gina_taylor]

Last night I went to the gender friendly nightclub and Dawn was a little more friendly with me, and I really thought that she was a real woman to me in her attributes. She was nicely dressed and her mannerisms weer very feminine. So I agree with both Victoria and Sara on the notion that transsexualism is of the mind and is not of the surgeries.

I have just come to terms with myself that my mental problems are that I have a female brain and that is perhaps one thing that my neuropsychologist has overlooked. That I am a man with a woman's brain! Thoughts to ponder.

Gina

[DawnL]

Define "woman" before this conversation has any real meaning.  A vagina?  A female brain?  Certain mannerisms or traits?  A genetic test?  The answer is not so easy because for any definition you write, there will be exceptions.  Are the women outside your definition then not women? 

Discussion about mannerisms are meaningless because there are plenty of women with man-ish gaits and man-ish gestures or speech and all those women are quite certain of their femininity.  Femininity here does NOT mean the normal suggestion of dainty, made-up, dressed in a girly way, or excessively girlish mannerism--it means only the sense of being female.  Too many transfolks confuse the two IMO.

You are what you are.  Anyone can call themselves a woman and they may actually believe it with great conviction but do other people *see* you as a woman, treat you like a woman?  Are you accepted as a woman?  It think it is pretty hard to forge on if other men and women won't accept you as a woman. 

This has always been the transsexual dilemma.  Some respond with excessive displays of femininity, some remain more male and insist they are women anyway, and some blow their brains out because they can't handle the conflict of their internal conviction versus what the world reflects back.  Many have surgery to become more congruent.  Whether this makes them women is another matter.

I think this discussion is moot.  It really is just another labeling exercise.  I think it matters most that women truly accept you as one of them by action and deed, not by title or how you are dressed.

Dawn

[Sandi]

Well this may offend some but it is the best description I have seen, and it was on this forum by Adel, a past member. It impressed me enough that I saved the quote:

GID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex. It only makes you Think you are and at that point you are subject to all of the same variations that exist with in that gender and all persons of a particular gender don't meet the cultural/social expectations of others for that gender. It is how you relate to/with and are axcepted by the opposite sex and or gender that determines your actual membership. Once you take that to the bank, they cash it in for you and life becomes brighter, trust me on this.

The core identity simply is not affected by the views of others, rather how we are able to face the world with that core identity because of our own fear which is a product of the views of others until delt with and conquered within ourselves. The core identity can only come through in it's fullest expression when it has ceased to be afraid to do so and actually has learned to respect itself for what it is.

In other words, the GID itself is not in conflict. Instincts such as self preservation and pride are instead in conflict with GID.

_______________________

It's about realizing the non-negotiable nature of human dignity, and the fact that others can't take that from me unless I give it away. ~Donna Rose~