Pre-Op transsexuals Are Still Male . . .

[gina_taylor]

I was discussing with a friend about a transsexual friend that has been in RLT for the last fifteen years and she is engaged to a female. His question to me was "Does she still have her penis?" He feels that as long as she has that, she is still technically a male and not a female. I tried to defend my transsexual friend but there was no point,     even though she has been living and working as a female for the last fifteen years.

Gina

[Northern Jane]

FIFTEEN YEARS?

I don't think I'd call that a RLT - sounds more like a "life style" choice.

[beth]

              It may not be by choice. She may not be able to have SRS due to financial or health reasons.  I wont get into whether she is a woman here as we never seem to be able to define "woman" and I don't know her particular situation.




beth

[DawnL]

I wont get into whether she is a woman here as we never seem to be able to define "woman" and I don't know her particular situation.

I will.  If she's legally changed her name, is living and working fulltime as a woman, and never reverts to her previous male identity then she's a woman especially given she's been at it 15 years.  It's that simple.  "Technically still a male" per Gina's post is crock.  We do not define ourselves by our genitals.  Period.

Gina, unless your male friend has some special qualifications, I doubt his opinion is valid.

Dawn

[harbour]

well we all know too well that our genetalia doesnt define our gender... i  think other people have a problem with wanting to draw a line between man and woman, some people sit down and tell us what is a transexual and all the rules when they dont have a sodding clue they just feel a little threatened and confused by it all,

[Leigh]

My questions are:   Did you have permission to talk about this person private information?  If not, why were you discussing something that is no ones business? 

If there is a valid medical reason that makes surgery impossible then I would accord them the status of woman.  I cannot accept the money issue. $50 a month for 15 years plus interest is way over $9K.  9K buys a damn good surgeon.


Leigh

[Thundra]

<<<< well we all know too well that our genetalia doesnt define our gender... i  think other people have a problem with wanting to draw a line between man and woman, some people sit down and tell us what is a transexual and all the rules when they dont have a sodding clue they just feel a little threatened and confused by it all, >>>>

Not really.  I went back a re-read this string, and it didn't seem to me that anyone was trying to diss someone. I think that if anything, TG people seem to be confused as a whole.  Everyone always states that we should not confuse sex and gender. Yet, that seems to be happening here.

As for the woman in question, if she lives as a woman full-time, and has made every attempt to change every piece of documentation that she legally can, than I see everyone according to her wish to be addressed as a woman.  That is her gender-role.

BUT...........the other observation is also valid.  Changing one's legal status (i.e. gender role) does nothing to address their physical anatomy.  Therefore, in the realm of sex, or sexual identity, technically and societally, she is still male.  But as long as she does not expose herself, no one will know, so the point is moot.

Some would also argue that changing one's genitalia also does not change their sexual identity. Do not confuse sexual-identity with sexual-preference.  More specifically, many dykes would argue that a m2f post-op is still male in their opinion.  Which is their perogative.

I would observe that the very term trans-gendered is short hand for transgendered-male, or transgendered-female.  The former referring to a m2f and the latter to f2m's.  Conversely, referring to someone as transsexual would suggest that their sexual-identity is at issue, not their gender. Part of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

So, I do not believe that it is an either/or situation.  The person to whom is referred above could accurately be called both a woman and male.  It depends on the level you are speaking about.  After post-sugical intervention, she could be referred to as both woman and female.  But in some corners, she will always be simply male regardless of her wishes.  C'est la vie.

Why worry about it?

[DawnL]

I would observe that the very term trans-gendered is short hand for transgendered-male, or transgendered-female.  The former referring to a m2f and the latter to f2m's.  Conversely, referring to someone as transsexual would suggest that their sexual-identity is at issue, not their gender. Part of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

I think this is an interesting observation.  Transsexual and transgendered tend to have very specific personally derived meanings within these communties and are little understood outside those communities.  The term "transsexual" is very ambiguous in that it suggests it is about sex not gender (the average person has no clue there is a difference), and yet, most transsexuals don't want to be described as transgendered because to them, this implies something different--that they are CDs or TVs and they don't necessarily want to be lumped together with these groups.  Labels labels labels...

Dawn

[Shelley]

Part of the problem could be that the terms get used interchangeably, when they have completely different meanings.

I agree Thundra,

It does cause confusion particularly when they are used interchangably by those that don't know the difference and use one over the other as a "nicer" alternative or as one being more politically correct.

But in some corners, she will always be simply male regardless of her wishes.

Way way too true unfortunately.

Shelley

[Cassandra]

The term "transsexual" is very ambiguous in that it suggests it is about sex not gender

True to a point DawnL. In clinical terms it is not ambiguous though. It is specific to those who must completely change their physical gender, such as myself. It is however a term that we TS's do find erroneous and misleading. In point of fact GID was previously SID thus now we have gender Identity dysphoria instead of sexual identity dysphoria. In general I prefer transwoman. Someone like Dennis may prefer Transman. We use TS here because we have both and want to include both sexes. But you are right it is somewhat ambigous.

Well, there you go I started out kinda disagreeing and ended up agreeing. I'll just post this anyway. 

Cassie

[DawnL]

True to a point DawnL. In clinical terms it is not ambiguous though. It is specific to those who must completely change their physical gender, such as myself. It is however a term that we TS's do find erroneous and misleading. In point of fact GID was previously SID thus now we have gender Identity dysphoria instead of sexual identity dysphoria. In general I prefer transwoman. Someone like Dennis may prefer Transman. We use TS here because we have both and want to include both sexes. But you are right it is somewhat ambigous.

Well, there you go I started out kinda disagreeing and ended up agreeing. I'll just post this anyway. 

Cassie

I think transman and transwoman are good but when defining everyone in that group,  transsexual is the word we use but it is archaic much as sexual identity disorder is.  Using your GID analogy, the correct term for the group should be transgenders but this word also describes CDs, TVs, genderqueer, and genderbenders.  While I think CD and genderqueer may be milder forms of gender dysphoria, I don't want to be lumped with the gender benders or TVs or are often something different (my opinion only).  We're probably stuck with transsexual though many who transition become men or women and escape the term altogether.

Dawn

[Susan]

I think transman and transwoman are good but when defining everyone in that group,  transsexual is the word we use but it is archaic much as sexual identity disorder is.  Using your GID analogy, the correct term for the group should be transgenders but this word also describes CDs, TVs, genderqueer, and genderbenders.  While I think CD and genderqueer may be milder forms of gender dysphoria, I don't want to be lumped with the gender benders or TVs or are often something different (my opinion only).  We're probably stuck with transsexual though many who transition become men or women and escape the term altogether.

Dawn

I still perfer transgender. I know it's an umbrella term but it's descriptively accurate. or as my Subtitle says "We stand at the crossroads of gender balanced on the sharp edge of a knife."

[Sheila]

We all know that we have some pretty good defnitions for Transgender, transsexual, etc., but do we really have a good definition of woman or man? Look it up in the dictionary or any other place.
Sheila

[Cassandra]

Dictionaries are fluid. Aint was not a word until it became a part of the dictionary. Latin is a dead language because the definitions of the words are not changeable. Take most words from todays dictionary and compare them to a Webster's from the 19th century. Today's defintion is tommorrows archaic term. We define who we are why should'nt we define the word and the definition.

Cassie

[Northern Jane]

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile, trying to figure out where I stand on the use of terms.

It's not as straight forward as it ought to be, is it?

First, the "M" or "F" on identification papers such as driver's licence is to aid in the identification of an individual so one would expect such documents to reflect the apparent sex of an individual.

For anything medical of course, the anotomical sex is appropriate, except in the cases where knowing the individual used to be the opposite sex is important.

It gets complicated! If an anotomical male, living as a woman, is arrested for a serious crime, do you put them in a women's jail? (They're in deep doo-doo no matter which one they're sent to!)

As to the word "transsexual" I have mixed feelings about it. "Trans" meaning in a state of movement or change, or spanning boundaries only half fits. For me, I did not see anything in a state of change or spanning boundaries; the apparatus I was born with was typically male and the mind was typically female so it was a simple (static) birth defect. Post-operatively I didn't use the term. If I had to explain to a doctor or someone what happened, I simply said I was born with male genetalia.

For myself at least, the term transgendered is something I can't clearly define, maybe because I  don't put the same limitations on the gender roles that broader society does. If I see a female with short hair riding a Harley I think "Cool!"

JMHO and worth what you paid for it

[Shelley]

If an anotomical male, living as a woman, is arrested for a serious crime, do you put them in a women's jail? (They're in deep doo-doo no matter which one they're sent to!)

I think the answer is obvious either

Be good or Don't get caught.

I'm for the first option.

[gina_taylor]

Beth, in answer to your question, I  think my friend chooses to be the way she is. But you know, Northern Jane, I really think that she's well past the RLT stage, since she's been living for fifteen years as a woman. Sorry Dawn, but my post is not a crock. She has had everything legally changed.

If anyone is interested you can read about her in her website at: www.dawnashley.com. She gives a very nice bio  on her website.

Gina

[JenniferElizabeth]

All I can say here after visiting her site. Hell she is  a woman
period!!!! She I guess transsitioned at what 15? If we all had Aunts or mothers like she grew up with, we'd all be in a easier way. Not to mention all the help from her college
girlfriends. I don't see how lables fit her anymore. She is what she is a WOMAN.

[gina_taylor]

That's a very good assesment Jennifer. She's had a very good transition since she was eight, thanks to her grandmother and so forth. I wish that we all could have it so easy. I'll be personally talking with her soon, as I've recently developed a nice friendship with her. Hopefully I shouldn't embarass her with any unexpected questions.  :-[

Gina

[Terri-Gene]

 

The term "transsexual" is very ambiguous

Don't see anything "ambiguous" about the word at all.  originally it was a medical term to describe only those who exhibited cross sex behavior and also desired surgery. 

We've been through it more times then not around here, but "Transgendered" was a term originally coined by Virginia Prince to describe someone who had all the characteristics of a transsexual except that they didn't feel surgery was necessary to thier relief.  Transgenderd was applied only to those who lived full time in the cross sex invironment full time but did not seek surgical and/or hormonial treatment.  All other subsets of what is now called Transgender were recognized as CD/TV etc.....

over time all the subsets began using the Transgendered label and eventually even Transsexuals began using it to describe themselves because of the aversion to the word "sex" in Transsexual, which is why many hold that the word Transgender has no actual meaning anymore.

Personally I see the term "sex" in the TS label unthreatning, since to me, It really is about sex, or the changing of it by definition, NOBODY is going to change my Gender as in TG, it is the sex of my body that is being addressed, not my Gender and why I still use the term SRS rather then GRS which again is popular among those who resent the word "Sex" and would rather say thier Gender is being changed.  Actually it really doesn't matter what is in a word, it matters only that personal goals are accomplished, and in todays world, though it has not rational as to what it is actually describing, the word Transgendered is more recognized by the common public then the term Transsexual, though that term is explicitly specific as to what it refers to.  All I want is what I need and what anyone calls me is a little irrevelant, as long as it is female or woman.