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How can I help my cisgender friend understand me being trans

Started by Brandon, November 12, 2013, 03:15:15 PM

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Brandon

To make the long story short , She's very nice an accepting, She just has a hard time understanding the gender dysphoria and, How I am in fact a man or young man mainly because everyone was brought up to believe a penis makes a man and vice versa, Me and her also plan on going to Silver Bells next week , So I was possibly gonna bring it up then
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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aleon515

I don't know but aren't you rushing your young friend? She might be nice and cute and everything but you don't have to do it at age 16-17, whatever, and certainly not the first date. Get to know her and the whole thing will come out at some point. If it gets at all serious, you can talk about it in honest way. This is who you are, you don't have to apologize in any way. Many cis gals are totally okay with trans guys.

--Jay
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Brandon

She already knows I'm trans she wants to understand me more, And is trying
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Adam (birkin)

I find that it is best to keep things sweet and simple. It depends what approach you want to take and how you see yourself.

From my experience:

Getting into talk about "identity" only works on the liberal sorts, and then they often end up misunderstanding because they think it's all about expressing yourself and whatnot.

Personally, after discussions with my endocrinologist, after reading research on the biological causes of transsexuality, and so on, I really fall into the "medical condition"/biological causes camp. So what I tell people is that in the womb the brains of transsexual people are conditioned to have the mapping of the other sex, and that I have not just a mental sense, but a physical sense that my body is supposed to be that of a man. It usually comes out as "the biggest theory right now is that the brain gets a wash of hormones that make it like the other sex - so while I wasn't born with a penis, my brain feels it should be there, I've always felt I should have the body of a male and not a female, so I am taking treatments to fix that." I imagine it's somewhat akin to losing an arm/leg and still having phantom sensations of that limb. Your brain tells you to move your leg, you want to move your leg, but the leg is not there.
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Shaina

Well, as a cis woman, I also had a difficult time understanding the trans community initially. It was not because I didn't accept trans people-which you say your friend already does-but because I lacked information. For instance, a trans man truly being a man though he was born without a happy stick, once seemed counter-intuitive. :)

Two things really helped me wrap my head around what was once such an unfamiliar concept.

First, it was explained to me that biological sex and gender are not the same thing. This was reinforced through examples and questions like "If a woman had a mastectomy or hysterectomy is she less of a woman without those parts?" or "Do you consider everyone you meet with a penis a real man? Then it clearly doesn't define manhood" Those examples don't directly apply but I found them helpful.

Second-and this might be more difficult with a new friend-but hearing about trans people's experiences really helped. This involved being told that attraction and their gender were separate, too. With guys, this meant differentiating between butch lesbians (identifying as women attracted to other women) and trans guys who are men regardless of attraction. Just as my identity as a woman wouldn't change with whomever I liked, being a trans guy was not some reaction to being attracted to women.

I don't know if any of that made sense lol but I wish you the best of luck with everything Brandon! 
I was a child and she was a child   
    In this kingdom by the sea:   
But we loved with a love that was more than love—
    I and my Annabel Lee
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Brandon

Quote from: Shaina on November 12, 2013, 04:23:48 PM
Well, as a cis woman, I also had a difficult time understanding the trans community initially. It was not because I didn't accept trans people-which you say your friend already does-but because I lacked information. For instance, a trans man truly being a man though he was born without a happy stick, once seemed counter-intuitive. :)

Two things really helped me wrap my head around what was once such an unfamiliar concept.

First, it was explained to me that biological sex and gender are not the same thing. This was reinforced through examples and questions like "If a woman had a mastectomy or hysterectomy is she less of a woman without those parts?" or "Do you consider everyone you meet with a penis a real man? Then it clearly doesn't define manhood" Those examples don't directly apply but I found them helpful.

Second-and this might be more difficult with a new friend-but hearing about trans people's experiences really helped. This involved being told that attraction and their gender were separate, too. With guys, this meant differentiating between butch lesbians (identifying as women attracted to other women) and trans guys who are men regardless of attraction. Just as my identity as a woman wouldn't change with whomever I liked, being a trans guy was not some reaction to being attracted to women.

I don't know if any of that made sense lol but I wish you the best of luck with everything Brandon!


Actually it did especially coming from a cis woman who didn't accept it at first
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Shantel

I like to point out initially as a first step in that conversation that because a female can give birth that doesn't make her a a real mom much less a real woman any more than if a male impregnates that female will he be a real dad much less a real man. You can get anyone to agree with that, it's a great opening then take it to the next level.
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Brandon

keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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DriftingCrow

I think The Gender Book(let) is great. Its comprehensive and has illustrations. It might be a fun way to bring up the subject if you don't want to seem very serious on your outing together.

http://www.thegenderbook.com/

Maybe you can print it out if you like it, and use it in combination with the suggestions above.
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Shantel

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 12, 2013, 07:32:33 PM
I think The Gender Book(let) is great. Its comprehensive and has illustrations. It might be a fun way to bring up the subject if you don't want to seem very serious on your outing together.

http://www.thegenderbook.com/

Maybe you can print it out if you like it, and use it in combination with the suggestions above.

Good idea Henry, didn't know it even existed!
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Jack_M

Simple answer: she'll never understand.

There's a big difference between acceptance and understanding and the only people who will ever actually understand are other trans* individuals.

The best way I've found is not to try and force people to understand.  I've just told people that knew me by a female name that I'm a man.  And left it at that.  Anyone new, I don't even bring it up.  I just say I'm Jack and if they talk to others and find out then that's what happens, but I'm not going to entertain anyone wanting to try and "understand" because to me that simply just means that they don't think it's a real thing, or don't agree with it and want you to try and convince them.  I don't mind close personal friends maybe asking things like, "When did you realise something wasn't right?" or "How are your parents taking it?"  But not things like, "What do you mean you get upset about your body or think you have the wrong parts?  What's that all about?"  The first two are more friends just trying to get an idea about who I really am now that I'm no longer hiding.  The quest to "understand" is more intrusive and none of their business.

People ask questions but I know full well they're not going to understand why I feel the way I feel, or what dysphoria is all about so personally I see it as something that's just not worth bothering to explain.  And if they're a real friend, simply saying "I'm a man" should be enough.  This pressure for you to try and make them understand is a futile venture and really shouldn't be important. 

Also, I view this forum as the place to discuss dysphoria or any other medical issues.  Unless it's an interested family member, I can't see why anyone would need to know about the issues I face in the same way I don't want to hear about their issues that I can't relate with either.  Like a girl talking to me about dress shopping.  I don't want to know and quite frankly, I'd rather they not discuss it with me.  I find that some trans* individuals, early on, can get a little too excited and start explaining away these things that frankly just disturb those who can't relate.  Like elective surgery to "butcher" your chest, or fashion some penis out of the skin of you arm or stab yourself with a needle every week or whatever else you face.  It's stuff that for those of us who need it, seems like a miracle, but truly terrifying to someone who could never imagine doing that to themselves.  Who cannot relate to being so adverse to their own body as to take such drastic action.  It can distrub and sicken people and for many, they'd just rather not know.  It can push people away.  Most people are more likely to be uncomfortable if you start bringing up dysphoria about private parts or talking about surgeries you want/need or medication you want to take.  I don't want the skinny on diabetics injecting themselves with insulin, and I'm sure they don't care to know about me injecting T every week.

My best advice: tell this friend you are a man, and that's pretty much the end of it.  There's nothing to understand.  You're a man in a female body and further down the line you might do something about that but regardless of medical intervention or not, you are still, right here and now, a man, and that's all you really have to say on the matter.
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DriftingCrow

Idk Jack, I got the  impression Brandon and this girl were going on a date. I think a girlfriend has a legitimate interest to want to know a little more. We don't know what she asked Brandon or what she knows about trans people. Just telling a girlfriend "I am a man in a female body" probably isn't the best place to begin and end, she's going to want to discuss his feelings. If Brandon wants to, he should talk about his feelings with her and clearly explain what transgender is.


Also, from being on this site I've conversed with SOs and allies who do seem to truly understand.
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Jack_M

They can only accept, no one can really understand and I think that's the difference.

It's like a math problem.  If you can solve it, you understand it.  You're in the class with other people that understand the problem.  If you can't solve the problem then you don't understand the problem itself.  You can come to accept that the answer is correct, because people who do understand the problem are in that class and tell you that that is the answer.  From there you can either accept the answer without really understanding it yourself, or refuse to accept it because you can't personally understand it to back it up with personal knowledge.   Without actually being in that class, you're only really at a level of accepting; not understanding.

The terms "understand" is thrown out there in a way that more means accepting in an empathetic manner.  Like people saying they understand what someone is going through after losing a love one, but they actually can't because that loss is personal to that person and can't be compared.  How they perceive and handle it won't the the same way you might or have done in the past.  You can empathise and imagine what they're going through, you can never fully understand.

I dunno, I'm genuinely of the impression that it's not something that should be discussed and more just accepted until much further down the line.  If it's a date, I'd like to think on a date it'd be more talking about the people we are and interests and not so focused on one persons problems.  That's kinda the worst thing to do in a date.  It doesn't seem like a good starting point and more off putting than pro-active.  I wouldn't want to be on a date with someone where they start trying to make me understand their problems with anorexia or bulimia (other dysphoria examples).  That'd actually put me off the person; it doesn't seem appropriate on a date.  And I know I'm not alone.  How many have been on dates with people who talk about their ex and get out of there quicktime?   I just personally don't think it's something worth going into in detail early on.  Even if someone says they want to understand, I still read that more as they want to get to know you better.  They want to know who you are for them to get why you identify as a gender contrary to sex, and not so much a lecture, books, graphic discussions.  When people get to know you, they grow to "get" why you're trans because they see how you act, interact, dress, portray yourself, etc, etc and they now "understand" you.

I still say that personally, I'd tread softly, and I wouldn't share emotional turmoil with someone until I get to know and trust them and sharing the negative aspects of our lives becomes something we both share and not just that one person, and that takes time. Simple questions, yeah.  Explaining dysphoria and gender VS sex and binary and so on, it can be just too much too soon and likely that's how the other would see it.  Anyone on a date wants a boyfriend or girlfriend, they're not looking for a problem, they can better deal with emotional problems each other have further down the line when they've secured that boyfriend/grilfriend and they know they're worth the time and patience.

I view this as like anything else.  EVERYONE has problems, trans or not.  Let those problems be addressed later on down the line.  If it's a date, advertise yourself for who you are, not explaining who you are.  Put the positive out there before bringing in the negative.  And bring in the negative when that starts to become a shared thing rather than throwing everything on the table early.
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Brandon

Quote from: Jack_M on November 12, 2013, 07:47:27 PM
Simple answer: she'll never understand.

There's a big difference between acceptance and understanding and the only people who will ever actually understand are other trans* individuals.

The best way I've found is not to try and force people to understand.  I've just told people that knew me by a female name that I'm a man.  And left it at that.  Anyone new, I don't even bring it up.  I just say I'm Jack and if they talk to others and find out then that's what happens, but I'm not going to entertain anyone wanting to try and "understand" because to me that simply just means that they don't think it's a real thing, or don't agree with it and want you to try and convince them.  I don't mind close personal friends maybe asking things like, "When did you realise something wasn't right?" or "How are your parents taking it?"  But not things like, "What do you mean you get upset about your body or think you have the wrong parts?  What's that all about?"  The first two are more friends just trying to get an idea about who I really am now that I'm no longer hiding.  The quest to "understand" is more intrusive and none of their business.

People ask questions but I know full well they're not going to understand why I feel the way I feel, or what dysphoria is all about so personally I see it as something that's just not worth bothering to explain.  And if they're a real friend, simply saying "I'm a man" should be enough.  This pressure for you to try and make them understand is a futile venture and really shouldn't be important. 

Also, I view this forum as the place to discuss dysphoria or any other medical issues.  Unless it's an interested family member, I can't see why anyone would need to know about the issues I face in the same way I don't want to hear about their issues that I can't relate with either.  Like a girl talking to me about dress shopping.  I don't want to know and quite frankly, I'd rather they not discuss it with me.  I find that some trans* individuals, early on, can get a little too excited and start explaining away these things that frankly just disturb those who can't relate.  Like elective surgery to "butcher" your chest, or fashion some penis out of the skin of you arm or stab yourself with a needle every week or whatever else you face.  It's stuff that for those of us who need it, seems like a miracle, but truly terrifying to someone who could never imagine doing that to themselves.  Who cannot relate to being so adverse to their own body as to take such drastic action.  It can distrub and sicken people and for many, they'd just rather not know.  It can push people away.  Most people are more likely to be uncomfortable if you start bringing up dysphoria about private parts or talking about surgeries you want/need or medication you want to take.  I don't want the skinny on diabetics injecting themselves with insulin, and I'm sure they don't care to know about me injecting T every week.

My best advice: tell this friend you are a man, and that's pretty much the end of it.  There's nothing to understand.  You're a man in a female body and further down the line you might do something about that but regardless of medical intervention or not, you are still, right here and now, a man, and that's all you really have to say on the matter.


Well I'm not gonna say Cis people won't understand, Yea the gender dysphoria no but she's different and really does want to understand, Unlike other associates at my school, I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt . I have to disagree not all trans people even understand me so thats b.s to me
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 12, 2013, 08:01:41 PM
Idk Jack, I got the  impression Brandon and this girl were going on a date. I think a girlfriend has a legitimate interest to want to know a little more. We don't know what she asked Brandon or what she knows about trans people. Just telling a girlfriend "I am a man in a female body" probably isn't the best place to begin and end, she's going to want to discuss his feelings. If Brandon wants to, he should talk about his feelings with her and clearly explain what transgender is.


Also, from being on this site I've conversed with SOs and allies who do seem to truly understand.

And she told she is trying because she wants to help me out, I am attracted to her, She asked me to discuss how I feel
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Quote from: Jack_M on November 12, 2013, 08:41:27 PM
They can only accept, no one can really understand and I think that's the difference.

It's like a math problem.  If you can solve it, you understand it.  You're in the class with other people that understand the problem.  If you can't solve the problem then you don't understand the problem itself.  You can come to accept that the answer is correct, because people who do understand the problem are in that class and tell you that that is the answer.  From there you can either accept the answer without really understanding it yourself, or refuse to accept it because you can't personally understand it to back it up with personal knowledge.   Without actually being in that class, you're only really at a level of accepting; not understanding.

The terms "understand" is thrown out there in a way that more means accepting in an empathetic manner.  Like people saying they understand what someone is going through after losing a love one, but they actually can't because that loss is personal to that person and can't be compared.  How they perceive and handle it won't the the same way you might or have done in the past.  You can empathise and imagine what they're going through, you can never fully understand.

I dunno, I'm genuinely of the impression that it's not something that should be discussed and more just accepted until much further down the line.  If it's a date, I'd like to think on a date it'd be more talking about the people we are and interests and not so focused on one persons problems.  That's kinda the worst thing to do in a date.  It doesn't seem like a good starting point and more off putting than pro-active.  I wouldn't want to be on a date with someone where they start trying to make me understand their problems with anorexia or bulimia (other dysphoria examples).  That'd actually put me off the person; it doesn't seem appropriate on a date.  And I know I'm not alone.  How many have been on dates with people who talk about their ex and get out of there quicktime?   I just personally don't think it's something worth going into in detail early on.  Even if someone says they want to understand, I still read that more as they want to get to know you better.  They want to know who you are for them to get why you identify as a gender contrary to sex, and not so much a lecture, books, graphic discussions.  When people get to know you, they grow to "get" why you're trans because they see how you act, interact, dress, portray yourself, etc, etc and they now "understand" you.

I still say that personally, I'd tread softly, and I wouldn't share emotional turmoil with someone until I get to know and trust them and sharing the negative aspects of our lives becomes something we both share and not just that one person, and that takes time. Simple questions, yeah.  Explaining dysphoria and gender VS sex and binary and so on, it can be just too much too soon and likely that's how the other would see it.  Anyone on a date wants a boyfriend or girlfriend, they're not looking for a problem, they can better deal with emotional problems each other have further down the line when they've secured that boyfriend/grilfriend and they know they're worth the time and patience.

I view this as like anything else.  EVERYONE has problems, trans or not.  Let those problems be addressed later on down the line.  If it's a date, advertise yourself for who you are, not explaining who you are.  Put the positive out there before bringing in the negative.  And bring in the negative when that starts to become a shared thing rather than throwing everything on the table early.
[/quote

Well I'm not one to hide who I am, I do trust her she's a good person I'm not saying she's gonna understand every little detail, But again I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, Besides not many people understand her so she trys to understand people her age
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Jack_M

The way to view it in a way that might make sense of what I'm trying to say in the quest for the impossible.

Can you understand what it means to be born female and want to remain female?  I can't.  I can't understand what it's like to look in a mirror and hate my body because it's not feminine enough.  I can't understand what it's like to wish I had bigger boobs, or bigger hips and skinnier waist.  I get that that's what some women experience but for me, personally, it's alien and I cannot relate and therefore never understand.  I can compare - as in I want the opposite, but it's exactly that, a polar opposite.

So that's what I mean about treading carefully.  They won't be able to understand you in a legit manner in the same way you won't be able to understand them for who they are.  You can both accept each other as being who you are and that's the important part. 

Just don't feel that her need to "understand" you pressures you into having to explain yourself anymore than you'd expect her to explain why she's perfectly happy being female.  And try to avoid going so far as to be portraying yourself as damaged emotional goods.  If there's ways to keep it light, keep it light, but I'd also keep it to the point and exceedingly brief, make a relationship or getting to know each other be about Brandon and this girl, not about trans issues.  If aspects of your life or experiences you face as a consequence of being trans make you angry or emotional, that's perhaps not the best stuff to discuss right now.  Get me?  That would be my personal concern and why I wouldn't personally explain anything other than all that needs said: I am a man.
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DriftingCrow

I think we should trust that Brandon is making the right choice for his situation. We don't live his life, so as you've illustrated, we can't understand his situation fully. He already made his choice to explain what it's like to be transgender more, and we should respect his judgment. Also, high school/young adult dating is often a bit different than adult dating, often younger people already know the guy/girl they're bringing out on the date. Most dates are between classmates, friends, or people you work with. Adults can be similar, but adults tend to be a little more confident and have more experience, so going on blind dates or on a date with someone you barely know is more common than in younger folks. This girl already knows he is trans, and it's likely if they're classmates, already been friends, or co-workers that she already knows who Brandon is as a person, likes him, and that's why she's going to Silver Bells with him.

He came here asking for ways to help illustrate what transgender is. I agree though Jack, he should try to keep it more on the lighter side, hence why I suggested the Gender Booklet, and I think Shaina's and Shantel's suggestions could also be brought up in a light hearted way. I also agree she shouldn't pressure him to tell all, but I think I'd trust Brandon to know when he's being pressured and when he's ready to tell someone he cares about a little more about his inner self.
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Brandon

Quote from: Jack_M on November 12, 2013, 09:21:18 PM
The way to view it in a way that might make sense of what I'm trying to say in the quest for the impossible.

Can you understand what it means to be born female and want to remain female?  I can't.  I can't understand what it's like to look in a mirror and hate my body because it's not feminine enough.  I can't understand what it's like to wish I had bigger boobs, or bigger hips and skinnier waist.  I get that that's what some women experience but for me, personally, it's alien and I cannot relate and therefore never understand.  I can compare - as in I want the opposite, but it's exactly that, a polar opposite.

So that's what I mean about treading carefully.  They won't be able to understand you in a legit manner in the same way you won't be able to understand them for who they are.  You can both accept each other as being who you are and that's the important part. 

Just don't feel that her need to "understand" you pressures you into having to explain yourself anymore than you'd expect her to explain why she's perfectly happy being female.  And try to avoid going so far as to be portraying yourself as damaged emotional goods.  If there's ways to keep it light, keep it light, but I'd also keep it to the point and exceedingly brief, make a relationship or getting to know each other be about Brandon and this girl, not about trans issues.  If aspects of your life or experiences you face as a consequence of being trans make you angry or emotional, that's perhaps not the best stuff to discuss right now.  Get me?  That would be my personal concern and why I wouldn't personally explain anything other than all that needs said: I am a man.

I get what your saying, That's what I do with everyone just explain it and leave it at that, If someone knew you as female though you can't just say your male with getting funny looks, But I do get it
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 12, 2013, 09:45:52 PM
I think we should trust that Brandon is making the right choice for his situation. We don't live his life, so as you've illustrated, we can't understand his situation fully. He already made his choice to explain what it's like to be transgender more, and we should respect his judgment. Also, high school/young adult dating is often a bit different than adult dating, often younger people already know the guy/girl they're bringing out on the date. Most dates are between classmates, friends, or people you work with. Adults can be similar, but adults tend to be a little more confident and have more experience, so going on blind dates or on a date with someone you barely know is more common than in younger folks. This girl already knows he is trans, and it's likely if they're classmates, already been friends, or co-workers that she already knows who Brandon is as a person, likes him, and that's why she's going to Silver Bells with him.

He came here asking for ways to help illustrate what transgender is. I agree though Jack, he should try to keep it more on the lighter side, hence why I suggested the Gender Booklet, and I think Shaina's and Shantel's suggestions could also be brought up in a light hearted way. I also agree she shouldn't pressure him to tell all, but I think I'd trust Brandon to know when he's being pressured and when he's ready to tell someone he cares about a little more about his inner self.

I agree with the both of of you guys
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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