A straight man’s thoughts…..Let’s try this again

[CaliforniaAdmirer]

This is in response to my original first two posts that were titled "A straight man's thoughts on his attraction to transgender women."

Let's try this again. I now understand that I was naïve in thinking that some of you would not find me threatening. I am a very open and honest person and I don't think in terms of hurting other people so I am naïve in thinking that other people are the same. Someone told me once "There are two ways to look at people. They are all bad until they prove you wrong or they are all good until they prove you wrong." I choose to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think of myself as a threatening person so maybe I came on a little strong for some of you. I was just expressing myself in what I thought was a safe environment for this subject and I may have made an incorrect assumption.
To those of you who think I may be trolling for sex you have also made an incorrect assumption. If I was trolling why would I clarify that in fact I was not here for dating purposes. I never made any indication in any way to make you think I was here for dating purposes. Some of you want to know what I expect from you. Again I was clear in my posts that I was just trying to understand my attraction and was questioning my own sexuality. I don't expect anything other than to be treated fairly which is all that most people here would expect. Furthermore if my sole purpose here was to fulfill a sexual fantasy why would I expose myself like I did? I put myself out there and talked about my own personal painful experiences. If I was looking to deceive you why would I expose myself in such a personal way? It seems like a lot of work for some sex.
I am not a player with genetic women; I have always been monogamous in all of my intimate relationships. I have only been with three people sexually in my whole life, my first girlfriend, my second girlfriend and my ex-wife. The last time I had sex was with my ex-wife six years ago. So to think my goal here was sex is a little bit off. If sex was my only intention believe me there are a lot of easier ways to get it than baring my soul on a transgender web site.
Finally I did not think talking about sex and masturbation would make so many of you uncomfortable. I would think this is a subject that a lot of you must have discussed with each other but, because I am a straight guy it is not ok? I understand your apprehension after reading some of your responses. I think there have been assumptions and misunderstandings on both sides. So let's just put all of that aside and try and have some intelligent conversation.
Please don't find me threatening. It was not easy for me to come here and expose myself like this. I have been abused sexually, physically, mentally, emotionally, financially and spiritually on a very deep level. I know what it feels like to be exploited and used like an object. I am sorry if some of you misinterpreted my intentions. But, if you read the posts you will see that I was very clear and not at all deceitful. I don't even know why I am still here posting. Maybe it's because of a few kind words from some of you and some friendly e-mails that I received.
My whole life I have been misunderstood and that is why I felt safe here. I thought if anyone could understand it would be the people here.


Peace

[Cindy]

Thank you, you are welcome here. Do understand however that many woman find the concept of sexualization extremely distasteful.

To people who wish to reply do so but please I do not wish to see divisive argument.

If you find the post distasteful or comments upset you please report it or ignore the thread.

I will also remind everyone that Moderators are the only people allowed to Moderate threads.

Thank You

Cindy

[~RoadToTrista~]

You're welcome to poke around here my dear. We've had a small number of regular cismen here and most of them have been nice.

[Valerie]

Again, welcome, and I promise you, it's absolutely NOT personal.

My caution that this isn't a dating or hookup site was simply that, a caution.  It was based on things I've seen in the past.  Forgive me if I feel just a *little* bit protective. 

It's natural if someone's first-ever forum post is discussing sex and attraction for there to be a few raised eyebrows.  There are most likely more people reading your posts that are intentionally withholding their comments because they're watching & waiting to see who you turn out to be. 

As a general rule, and especially on the web, you're gonna' run into a gamut of opinions here, and yes, expect your words to be picked apart & misunderstood, and your motives might initially be questioned,  not because you're you, but because this is the internet & we are human.  You will find many open-hearted people here & you are as welcome here as anyone else.  I'm sorry for whatever pain & confusion has brought you here.  I think you are probably the person you're presenting yourself to be, but stick around awhile before having your feelings hurt. It takes awhile to get to know people & for them (us) to get to know you.  Please don't take skepticism personal--after hearing gunshot all their lives, it takes the creatures of the forest a little bit to realize that the photographer isn't a hunter.

When I joined this site as a cis-person in 2004, I had to earn the trust of this community, and I was prepared to do so.  And I'm not even a guy.  Not to say there's anything intrinsically wrong with men & I love men as much as I love anyone else.  But many people here have witnessed or experienced a disproportionte amount of pain coming from men. 

This site has grown a great deal since I first joined, and the world hopefully has grown a tiny bit more trans* positive, so perhaps that's why I don't the sense the same level of initial skepticism about cis-people since my recent return to the site.  Still, as a new-ish person returning to the forums... forget cisperson, but a new *person*, period, I still tread a little carefully.

But here's my take:  while Susan & her staff have worked VERY hard to make the site as inclusive & embracing as possible, my mentality is that first & foremost this site exists as a safe place for trans* people primarily & their significant others.  So ya' know, if I'm offended by something someone here says, I couldn't care less....because *it's not about me.*   You & I have the world, both real & online to wander & visit....but it's just not that simple for trans* people.   

The most priveleged status in American society is that of the white, Christian, heterosexual, cisgender male-- I fit two:  white & cisgender.  If I fit all categories *except* cisgender, I'd still be less priveleged than I am now.

So the sweet welcome that I have here is a gift to be treasured (and I do, very much), and not my intrinsic right.  I take off my shoes & bow my head, because my opinion is that I am standing on holy ground.


~V.

[Beth Andrea]

Hello!

*Original content deleted by me--Beth*

Welcome, enjoy your stay. Like was said earlier, don't take anything personally; many of us are working through our histories, and sometimes we lash out. That's all, thanks.

[FrancisAnn]

I welcome your interest & thoughts "straight man". Thank you for trying again.

[Mx Pippa]

Well CaliforniaAdmirer. I'm glad that your back, and It's Let's try this again from me to, as I didn't make it to the reply stage yesterday. Well I for one thought yesterday's post was very good, it must be the first thread that I've spent so much time on. I was so comfortable with a lot of your views,  but then again, my work dose bring me in contact with a lot Heterosexual guys who enjoy being around or are curious about being around Transgender guys like myself, so I couldn't quite understand at first what all the fuss was about.

Sorry I used the term above, but I still consider myself and identified with Dr Tracie O'Keefe's definition, a Transgender male, which so far as I know was correct until the Wiki lot up there in the heavens decided to turn things on their heads. I was born with a penis, I still have one and I've no intention of converting it into whatever it becomes, when those brave transsexual women make it to the operating table, so therefore I'm a transgender male. But you can call me She. There again, I suppose Transgender Woman dose have a nicer ring to it.

Getting back to the story line, I like to think I keep an open mind, but one thing I consistently stay single minded about is in my belief that sexuality, and humans in general are as unique as their DNA, their fingerprints, or whatever. Do you know I read through yesterdays post twice, then at the point when I was about to reply, Bet Midler popped into my head and I thought "This one's too hard for me" I think maybe it still is.

One thing that sticks in my mind from yesterday, was your reference to the pain endured through transitioning, thing is, I've never felt I've transitioned, It's not something I can say I've experienced, it's like it's always been there all the time. Certainly never thought I was in the wrong body, but I suppose a true transgender wouldn't.

I've achieved my goals I have a generous augmented bust at 40D, my permanent make-up, and I live as transgender full time. I'm a Transgender in a Transgender body wearing my Transgender clothes.

I suppose I could say I've been Trans since I was 11 years old, if dressing up in Aunties underwear counts, that's 56 years ago,  there's been tons of male stuff in between. I had quite an unusual personality in that at school I spent most of my time hanging with girls, not in the boyfriend roll but as the mates, yet I seemed to be well accepted with the boys even though I didn't hang with them. Cars, Tools, and most practical male stuff are all well ingrained along with the heels and lip colour.

[V M]

Peace Bro 

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Hugs

V M

[Lo]

I'm not a trans* woman, but I've been harassed and bullied by my fair share of cishet men.

To use an analogy as to why some people are off-put by your posting, let's use class instead of gender. Let's pretend that this is a forum for poor people. Not broke people, poor people. People born into poverty with few prospects of a middle-class future. We talk about government benefits, how to feed our families with food stamps, tips for staying safe for those of us who are homeless. Many of us have been hurt by gentrification of our neighborhoods and even the smallest changes to benefits programs. We're angry at the way we're discriminated against by police, who think we're all drug addicts, thugs, and sex workers. We're angry at banks for making it difficult for us to build our wealth and get out of poverty, who would rather just exploit us on the quick. Politicians forget about us a lot, and the focus on helping out the middle class gets old.

So then you join our forum. You're not just middle-class, you're rich. You pull in six, maybe seven, figures a year, graduated from one of the most prestigious schools in the country, work for a fortune 500 company, and all your kids are going to college too. You're well on your way towards a cushy retirement. You have a stock portfolio and a vacation home in Napa Valley. You've never gone hungry a day in your life and you've never worried about your future. But you joined our forum because you like poor people. You write a very long introduction post about why you like poor people, why poor people are so great. You admit that you've fantasized about walking away from "it all" to go live in some developing country because the people there are so "simple" and "happy" without all that material wealth. This is the first time that you've actually talked to people in poverty, though.

We are suspicious of you. It's people like you that drive up the rents that force us out of our neighborhoods and further away from the cities. It's people like you that vote to take away our benefits, that vote to limit our upward mobility. It's people like you that see us as little more than cheap labor to fill up Walmart rosters. It's people like you that ignore how much more the police harass us. It's people like you that call us lazy and undeserving, and not being able to feed our kids is the lot we've earned.

Can you blame some of us for not being thrilled that you're here? We watch TV, we know the talk that rich people talk when it comes to helping out the poor, but we don't see you in soup kitchens. We don't see you speaking up against the crimes of banks or how the war on drugs rarely seems to affect middle-class users. We'll take the allies that we can get, but innocent until proven guilty is a luxury we can't afford. The stakes are too high, the price for misjudging too steep. You wield all the power, here. We hope that you'll use it in our favor, but won't be surprised if you wind up hurting us with it, whether or not you mean to.

Hope that makes things a bit clearer.

[Lo]

Just FYI, that wasn't necessarily my opinion that I was sharing up there (Devlyn).

I was trying to explain the tendency for some of us to be suspicious. Why some of us have the knee-jerk that we do. I'm nervous around people that raise their voices for any reason. Doesn't mean I hate them, that I'm discriminating against them, that I think they're bad people, it's just that yelling scares me because in the past, yelling has always been followed by worse things, and I've been trained to expect that. I've been with my husband for almost 5 years now, and I'm JUST starting to get used to the fact that he's excitable and raises his voice sometimes (like when watching sports), but that it doesn't mean he's angry or is going to start punching holes in the wall.

And if you're going to be my friend, a real friend, then you're going to have to understand that I don't like it when people yell. And if you respect me, you'll respect that reaction I have to yelling and you'll do your best not to do it, and you definitely won't do it on purpose just to make me anxious. You will understand that you wield that power over me. You have the power to turn me into a nervous wreck with a single, tiny action. And if you don't want to be my friend because I ask you not to do that, then you probably weren't going to be a good friend to begin with.

If you're going to be an ally to trans* people, same thing. You have to understand (and respect!) that we are all different people, we have all experienced different things, have different reactions to people and situations, different opinions. You're going to have to accept the fact that not all of us are going to trust you. If you want to be our friend, that's something you're going to have to understand.

[JillSter]

You put yourself out there and you got a few smiles and a few scowls. I admit I was glaring from the sidelines myself, not willing to either welcome you or chase you away. I don't believe your reason for being here is nefarious in any way, but I remain cautious even as I write this.

If you truly want to understand us, consider backing off from your attempt to explain yourself and just talk to us as you would anyone else. "Show me, don't tell me," as they say. Understanding comes with time and patience, an open heart and mind, and the genuine desire to know -- not just the answers to your questions -- but the hearts and minds of the people you're asking.

If you stick around and get to know us, maybe you'll begin to understand. And maybe we'll begin to understand you too.

And maybe you'll learn more about yourself in the process.

As for understanding your attraction to transwomen: In my own attempt to understand my feelings of incongruity between mind and body -- who I intuitively know myself to be vs the physical form that contradicts it -- I was only able to put that aside and move on once I accepted that I don't understand it, and finally stopped trying to explain myself to myself.

So you're attracted to transwomen. Does it really matter why?

I think it's much more important that you accept that attraction for what it is and be completely comfortable with it before acting on it. Questioning it sounds like inner-conflict to me. Doubt. No matter how subtle that doubt may be, it would have an enormous impact on any relationship you would have with a transwoman. If you fear your friends and family knowing that she's trans, she deserves better than you. Not to be harsh, but it's the truth.

Do you see the dilemma?

I think like many well-meaning "admirers" you don't realize that your combination of attraction and confusion can ultimately cause a lot of added pain to someone who has already been through too much, even though you never intended to hurt her. Your relationship with a transwoman should exist regardless of her trans status, not because of it. It should be a non-issue. But you admit that it's the very thing that attracts you.

Personally, I don't see a healthy relationship in that. It sounds more like a fetish to me than genuine interest. In all fairness, we like what we like. We're all attracted to different things. But your focus on her body (and genitalia) more than her mind concerns me. Be careful not to let your attraction devolve into objectification, which frankly I'm not entirely convinced it is not already.

I apologize if any of that comes across as combative. That's not my intention. I just felt the need to point some things out that I hope you'll take into consideration. Please don't take my apprehension to be indicative of the community as a whole. You are certainly welcome to be here, and I am glad you want to learn more about what it means to be trans. But as a trans "admirer" I hope you come to admire us for who we are as individuals most of all.

[Ashey]

And I'm curious about exactly what it is you wish to understand, learn or whatever here. I've read your posts and it just doesn't seem to me to be a clear goal here other than you trying to work your own way through something.

This. I mean, if we can help, let us know how. You don't need to try and gain everyone's trust to post here.

[RavenMoon]

I have only been with three people sexually in my whole life, my first girlfriend, my second girlfriend and my ex-wife. The last time I had sex was with my ex-wife six years ago.

I find this surprising. Are you young? I was mostly in regular relationships, as opposed to one night stands, and I think I've been with about 30 partners. But I'm middle aged now so... lol

So to think my goal here was sex is a little bit off. If sex was my only intention believe me there are a lot of easier ways to get it than baring my soul on a transgender web site.
Finally I did not think talking about sex and masturbation would make so many of you uncomfortable.

So you say it's not about sex, but then you talked about sex.

This is like me saying I like girls with black hair. Saying I masturbate to photos or videos of girls with black hair is unnecessary. That's not about black hair, that's about porn. I have dated girls with black hair, and even more with blond hair. But I'm not saying what we did in bed, because it's unnecessary.

I was always attracted to trans* women, but that's because I'm trans*. Are you "straight" if you like pre-op trans* women? Not really. But that's not important either. Like who you like. It's not hurting anyone.

So being attracted to trans* women, and then talking about porn, as if that has anything to do with trans* women, is about how much it has to do with women with black hair.

I'm not a prude, but I don't talk abut sex much, or about porn. I'm not against porn per se, but I do think it tends to be unhealthy because it's so common these days, and objectifies the people in it. And if you happen to be a trans* woman in porn, well that's even worse. They are more like side show attractions than real people. So I think that's what bothered the members here.

[JLT1]

Cal,

When you see a trans-women, you said that you recognize them because you see something in their face or possibly they're eyes.  The strongest person you will ever meet is a transgendered individual who has successfully transitioned.  There are so many barriers to overcome, so many hurts that happen along the way.  It is a very hard row to hoe.  And many fail, they stop transition and go back, forever stuck in a familiar but unfulfilled and painful life.  Or they die.  The numbers suggest a 20%-40% suicide rate.  You see iron in the eyes.

Going waaay out on a limb here, you see in them the whispers of a hope buried down deep you have that one day, you would join them.  You see in them a strength of spirit that you do not possess. They represent the first step of your own journey.  That is just my guess.  If I am wrong, I am so very sorry.

No hugs yet but a hand shake.

Jen

[DriftingCrow]

Hi CaliforniaAdmirer, welcome to Susan's Place. We have a community of members here who are in loving relationships with transmen and women, and some other members who are attracted to transmen and women who aren't in relationships, we also have friends and allies here, so there is a place for you to join our discussions. Like the "real world" Susan's has a wide variety of members with various points of view, experiences, and cultures, so you'll encounter those who have suspicions (as you've seen) and those who don't. I think it is important and healthy to discuss what's on your mind (even sexual desires), so I hope you learn a lot about yourself while you're on here.

I find this surprising. Are you young? I was mostly in regular relationships, as opposed to one night stands, and I think I've been with about 30 partners. But I'm middle aged now so... lol

I don't find it surprising, I know lots of middle aged people who haven't been with very many people. I got the impression he was middle aged (especially since he's been married and divorced for 6 years or so). I am young (25), but I've really only had "real sex" with one and a half persons (the "half" is because I am not sure if a particular time actually counted. . .  ), which is likely far lower than some others my age. It just seems like some people think that those who haven't been with a lot of people are weirdos or crusty old maids/lads who don't know how to have a good time. But, I think it's natural to have people who either have lots of partners over a lifetime, and others who don't have a lot, since not everyone wants or likes that.

When you see a trans-women, you said that you recognize them because you see something in their face or possibly they're eyes.  The strongest person you will ever meet is a transgendered individual who has successfully transitioned.  There are so many barriers to overcome, so many hurts that happen along the way.  It is a very hard row to hoe.  And many fail, they stop transition and go back, forever stuck in a familiar but unfulfilled and painful life.  Or they die.  The numbers suggest a 20%-40% suicide rate.  You see iron in the eyes.

Just had to say, this is quite beautiful Jen.

[RavenMoon]

I don't find it surprising, I know lots of middle aged people who haven't been with very many people. I got the impression he was middle aged (especially since he's been married and divorced for 6 years or so). I am young (25), but I've really only had "real sex" with one and a half persons (the "half" is because I am not sure if a particular time actually counted. . .  ), which is likely far lower than some others my age. It just seems like some people think that those who haven't been with a lot of people are weirdos or crusty old maids/lads who don't know how to have a good time. But, I think it's natural to have people who either have lots of partners over a lifetime, and others who don't have a lot, since not everyone wants or likes that.

I was just married for nine years. That was my last relationship that ended a year and a half ago. My second longest relationship was about 6 years. There were many more that only lasted a few months. And a few that overlapped.

I haven't been with anyone since my ex. I figure at this point it wouldn't be fair to whome ever I meet so I'm going to wait until I'm done with my transition.

[Cindy]

Lets keep on topic please.

Thank You

Cindy

[Cindy]

OK people.

I'm concerned about people being triggered.

Please calm down

[Gabrielle]

CA - I guess I understand wanting to understand more about ourselves.  It is sort of a quest of my own.

I wish 40 years ago I had had a forum in which to ask questions.  My life might have been radically different.

I was never a "straight man," though I tried acting the part.  So, maybe I am not the best person to answer any of your questions, though I do hope you find your answers, CaliforniaAdmirer.  If you are lucky, you may find you are not the person society has made you, but something more complex and exciting. 

[Lo]

Forgive me Lo, but I have to take exception with your analogy. 

You too are assuming that my post was indicative of my personal opinion, which it isn't. My post following is. But then it's really not a matter of opinion either, it's a matter of unconscious reaction which isn't really something that can be "disagreed" with. I can disagree with my own reaction to loud noises and raised voices (and I do), but that doesn't change the fact that I am made uncomfortable by them and in the interest of my own well-being, will often try to get away from their source.

What is my opinion, though, is that things like gender dysphoria aren't at all comparable to a history of abuse. (I would know, I've experienced both.) I think it's a teeny bit disingenuous to some into a forum about gender struggles (and victories) and say that your own, completely different history of struggle makes you able to identify with us. Because that's just not the case. I'm sure lots of transphobes have been abused themselves; the abuse itself is independent of one's ability to truly empathize. But I also believe that to truly respect someone, more important than acknowledging similarities, you must acknowledge your differences.

I also believe in the existence of axes of privilege/oppression, also called "kyriarchy" (the concept of which is pretty firmly understood to be real by academics and social scientists), but many of us here don't.