Sexual deviancy.

[NatalieT]

Hi all,

There's something that's really getting me down at the moment. It's how so many people view ->-bleeped-<-/transsexualism as some sort of weird erotic fantasy.

It just makes me feel really upset that we can be viewed like that. I have always hated having a libido, it just makes me feel sick and I derive no sexual pleasure whatsoever from being the person I have always felt I should be...why is it so difficult for some to understand?

[Sophia Hawke]

Can i ask, do you have no interest then in sleeping with others as a woman?  Or, intimacy with a significant other?

I can understand your hatred of your libido, since thats one thing i hate about myself.   And if you're dealing with men, there's always going to be some degree of, "I want this, gimme gimmie gimmie!!"  on whatever their interest is.   

If they just are thinking that though.  Isn't that generally considered transvestism that they are thinking of?

[NatalieT]

Can i ask, do you have no interest then in sleeping with others as a woman?  Or, intimacy with a significant other?

I can understand your hatred of your libido, since thats one thing i hate about myself.   And if you're dealing with men, there's always going to be some degree of, "I want this, gimme gimmie gimmie!!"  on whatever their interest is.   

If they just are thinking that though.  Isn't that generally considered transvestism that they are thinking of?

In answer to your question, no. I can't really imagine having a sexual partner, but that's just me! I'd like to be in a loving relationship with someone who isn't really interested in sex.

And yes, that does refer to tranvestism, but generally people aren't really clear about what the differences are, and it's really irritating!!

[Sophia Hawke]

A great video that explains what it means to be us very well(at least to me)

Im still pre-hrt, and ill tell you, im almost envious of you in a way.  Cause i am interested in it, and its a frustrating nightmare.

[musicofthenight]

This is a complicated issue.  After all, there are a lot of weird erotic fantasies.  If you can imagine something, it's probably someone's erotic fantasy.  And, most of them, not all but most, are okay.

So, I'm not a huge fan of the term "deviancy."  We need words to express the difference between something that's weird and something that's wrong.  Otherwise, something very tragic happens.  Weirdness starts to carry the same shame as wrongness and wrongness gets to pass itself off as weirdness.  Everything becomes muddled, confusing, doubt-inducing and I think that's a large part of what you're suffering through.

Gender and sexuality are branches of the same tree.  Perhaps more comfort with the first will help you become more comfortable with the second.  Perhaps not.

For what it's worth, I don't think being transgender and asexual is even all that weird.  I'm shades of both myself.

It's hard to have patience with people who don't understand.  When they're someone who matters to you, maybe you could explain the difference: people generally keep sexuality and sexual fantasies to themselves, but gender is public.

[MadeleineG]

You should read "Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us" by Jesse Bering

[Ashey]

Pre-HRT me would be flattered and wouldn't mind much being objectified. HRT me is a bit disgusted and actually has some self-worth now.

[Sophia Hawke]

Pre-HRT me would be flattered and wouldn't mind much being objectified. HRT me is a bit disgusted and actually has some self-worth now.

Yeah i figured this one out quick.  Although for me, it kinda goes both ways being pre-hrt.   I actually find alot of men scary now, even ones i known for several years.  Pre-HRT i sometimes get the question, are you a girl?  Which i guess means im starting to become semi passable, even though i havent worked on my voice at all yet.  Though i do put ALOT of effort into my appearance.

I can tell you though.  I've started attracting creepy old men,  many of them ive known for years.  Now im kinda scared of em.

[Nicolette]

I don't believe the OP was about being objectified, but rather about being upset that others could think that a tg/ts's motive for being this way is driven by a sexual fantasy. I was upset years ago regarding this. But then I starting ignoring what the haters had to say. There's always haters no matter who you are.

[Aina]

I always feel bad afterwards when I become aroused when thinking or imagining becoming a girl. Yet at times I honestly not sure it is really a bad thing, and at times I believe the feelings of feeling bad about it derive from societies views on the subject and what I was taught when I was younger. I wish I didn't happen but it happens, we cannot control what turns us on, at least those my opinions.

Is it weird? maybe but what is normal? No one is normal there is no true normal people.

[Sophia Hawke]

I don't believe the OP was about being objectified, but rather about being upset that others could think that a tg/ts's motive for being this way is driven by a sexual fantasy. I was upset years ago regarding this. But then I starting ignoring what the haters had to say. There's always haters no matter who you are.

Most people simply dont know what transexuals/transgendered people are.  Being lumped into the LGB crowd doesnt help either.    It doesnt help either that most trans people are MTF(although thats changing) and alot of that is because of awareness and the fact that most women are largely ignored when they say things.   

Two things are going to change this.   One is overall awareness.  The other is "hopefully"  ->-bleeped-<- falling under more of a medical condition type definition instead of psychological, even though theres a clear psychological aspect.  Gender Dysphoria is all about the brain recognizing the body and going "WTF thats not right?!?!".  At least to me anyways.

[Beth Andrea]

Hi all,

There's something that's really getting me down at the moment. It's how so many people view ->-bleeped-<-/transsexualism as some sort of weird erotic fantasy.

It just makes me feel really upset that we can be viewed like that. I have always hated having a libido, it just makes me feel sick and I derive no sexual pleasure whatsoever from being the person I have always felt I should be...why is it so difficult for some to understand?

You can't help how other people see things. Most often it's because they don't know any better...so that's why we should be able to discuss it with them, and give them a brief education on the TG/TS world. (If you do talk with them, keep it as simple as possible)

Then, if they still choose to see us as "preverted", then they are now being ignorant, and mean. At that point, they're not worth worrying about anymore.

[musicofthenight]

I always feel bad afterwards when I become aroused when thinking or imagining becoming a girl.

I don't think this is as bad as you suspect.  It's a lot easier to be oneself in one's own sexual fantasies when... one is oneself.  Where exactly is the shame in that.

The one thing I'll argue is that it's probably a bad idea to build a life around a sexual fantasy.  There's more to gender than sex, and those are the parts that should be public.  I hope that makes sense.



Can I add that objectification isn't necessarily a bad thing?  It takes a very special person to do it right, but I like to be objectified.  I like to be treasured.  Objectification without dehumanization, see...

[Sophia Hawke]

I don't think this is as bad as you suspect.  It's a lot easier to be oneself in one's own sexual fantasies when... one is oneself.  Where exactly is the shame in that.

The one thing I'll argue is that it's probably a bad idea to build a life around a sexual fantasy.  There's more to gender than sex, and those are the parts that should be public.  I hope that makes sense.



Can I add that objectification isn't necessarily a bad thing?  It takes a very special person to do it right, but I like to be objectified.  I like to be treasured.  Objectification without dehumanization, see...

Those smooth talkers will always get you! :-)

On another note,  i see plenty of cis-women at bars(i work in the industry) just picking up guys for a good time.   Intimacy is a part of regular life(casual or not).   If i didnt think about sex as a women, or have that fantasy, i would probably question my trans status.  And im not saying that anyone else should, but for me personally, yeah.   I'm not saying is top factor in it either.  But id really like a lasting and fulfilling relationship as a women, sex included.

[Aina]

I don't think this is as bad as you suspect.  It's a lot easier to be oneself in one's own sexual fantasies when... one is oneself.  Where exactly is the shame in that.

The one thing I'll argue is that it's probably a bad idea to build a life around a sexual fantasy.  There's more to gender than sex, and those are the parts that should be public.  I hope that makes sense.



Can I add that objectification isn't necessarily a bad thing?  It takes a very special person to do it right, but I like to be objectified.  I like to be treasured.  Objectification without dehumanization, see...

Well I don't think it is really a bad thing, or horrible. I think part of me enjoys it but at the same time it is not 100% what I want so I feel a bit bad afterwards. If you understand what I mean.

[Nicolette]

Can I add that objectification isn't necessarily a bad thing?  It takes a very special person to do it right, but I like to be objectified.  I like to be treasured.  Objectification without dehumanization, see...

It can be exploited to one's advantage, no? I admit, I love my body being loved, not just my brain. But they have to work in concert.

[musicofthenight]

So, your theoretical model is more real than I am?  Thanks for that.

(j/k, really.   )

I have met with a similar prejudice for self-determination before.  It presents me with a dilemma, but I think I need to lay some groundwork to express it.

dehumanize - To deprive of human qualities such as individuality, compassion, or civility
objectify - To present or regard as an object
(both from TFD)

And, linguistically speaking, the opposite of an object is a subject. 

Is there such a thing as humanizing objectification?  I believe so.  Admiration, respect, appreciation - are these not cases where people use people to fulfil their own needs and desires?  Put it another way, if I choose to make people respect me, if I insist on subjectivity and not being a "mere" object, does that make me any more respectable?

I don't think so.

Beauty and goodness and utility and so forth - these are qualities of objects.  Being human means being a subject and an object both.  Please don't take that from me.  Don't tell me I can't be useful.  Then I can't be beautiful or noble in the service of anyone but myself.

That's so lonely.

By all means defend my right to pursue happiness, to be autonomous and free, so seek what I want.

Sometimes I want to say "take me."  Please respect that.

[Ashey]

I actually never even contemplated being with a guy that was specifically attracted to transsexuals. I always assumed I would end up with someone who liked me regardless of what my genitals were. And I really don't have any interest in anybody doing anything with my penis anymore. It's just there like a lame decoration now. So for somebody to be interested in me because of it is really weird and uncomfortable to me. So I guess it's not even that I could be a fetish or fantasy or object of desire to someone, which I'll admit can be kinda flattering and exciting. It's that someone can specifically like me for a part or parts about myself that I dislike that makes me not want to be with them. I mean, let's face it, if there is a sexual interest in me because I'm a transsexual, it's because of the guy parts. If it wasn't, they'd just be straight (if they're a guy). And all this is on top of the warnings I've heard before from various people; 'watch out for ->-bleeped-<-s', etc. So that's where I stand now, cautious and wary of ->-bleeped-<-s/admirers and those with a '->-bleeped-<- fetish'.

[Sophia Hawke]

I actually never even contemplated being with a guy that was specifically attracted to transsexuals. I always assumed I would end up with someone who liked me regardless of what my genitals were. And I really don't have any interest in anybody doing anything with my penis anymore. It's just there like a lame decoration now. So for somebody to be interested in me because of it is really weird and uncomfortable to me. So I guess it's not even that I could be a fetish or fantasy or object of desire to someone, which I'll admit can be kinda flattering and exciting. It's that someone can specifically like me for a part or parts about myself that I dislike that makes me not want to be with them. I mean, let's face it, if there is a sexual interest in me because I'm a transsexual, it's because of the guy parts. If it wasn't, they'd just be straight (if they're a guy). And all this is on top of the warnings I've heard before from various people; 'watch out for ->-bleeped-<-s', etc. So that's where I stand now, cautious and wary of ->-bleeped-<-s/admirers and those with a '->-bleeped-<- fetish'.

Im really not a fan of words like ->-bleeped-<-/->-bleeped-<- ect.  Even transexual seems to have a sexual connotation.  I am a woman to me.  Other "transwomen" fall into the same catagorey as cis-women for me. Which is women.  I have difficulty viewing it any different, penis or not.

[Makalii]

Wow. Thankyou for this thread and all who take part in it. This underlines some things that have truly been bothering my mind recently. All of your feelings and opinions have been helpful to me. Just want to say this is one of the reason's why Susan's Place is great. Seek it out and ye shall find.

I have been told by some that sexual deviancy such as dom/sub etc. is wrong and by others that it is just weird, or that pleasure through "objectivity" is dirty and that fetishes and "kinkinesses" are unhealthy. But my personal feelings on the matter is that sexual activities should be something that is open, that is free, and that there should be room for imagination and creativity. I don't say this as a way to justify my own thoughts or to sound suggestive.

If this is what makes you happy then this is what makes you happy.

As per feeling guilty about imagining yourself as a woman (or man, idk if it's the same or not.), so long as your identity isn't centered around that pleasure, and instead that pleasure is centered around your identity, what's there to feel guilty about? It's just an erotic fantasy in which you happen to be yourself, no shame in that.

And the association between imagining oneself as a cis-female and the idea of being "objectified" and/or wanted for ones body. The need to feel desired on a physical level is something that I think we all feel. And we want to feel desired in the right way, for the right reasons, unlike the desire that people like ->-bleeped-<-s will bring forth. I think this is one of the lessons to be learned for any trans person who ever went through a sort of gay/lesbian self exploration phase (If anyone has a less discriminant way of saying that please feel free to tell me. I just couldn't think of a better way to say it.) Being desired as a man and being desired as a woman are two entirely different things, obviously. And they don't necessarily have to do with the gender of the person who is desiring, but the identity of the desired person. (This is also another good reason why sexual orientation and gender identity are separate from each other but linked together by a common chain that is intimacy.)

These are all just my humble opinions. I don't mean to impose ideas on anyone else or make generalizations about anyone. This is just my thoughts.

With Passion, Maka ^_^