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Losing either way

Started by Asche, December 08, 2013, 07:31:19 PM

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Asche

At my last therapy appointment, my therapist said something that I heard, at least, as saying something like that by dressing the way I do -- skirts or jumpers, but still having a beard, and thus mixing my presentation between male and female -- I was either pushing people away or signalling that I wasn't part of their group, and so I was responsible for my difficulty connecting with other people.

Anyway, yesterday I was going to a chorus rehearsal, and though I usually wear a skirt and tights there and have never gotten any negative feedback (and someone even said something that suggested they would be okay with me wearing a skirt and tights to the concert, as long as they were black), yesterday I had this sudden feeling of revulsion -- that I was doing something shameful and making a fool of myself in public.  I ended up changing into pants.  But the whole way over and the whole way back I felt like I had just drowned my pet cat, or maybe my baby.  It was like someone had punched me in the gut real hard.

It's like my choice is to either dress in a way that feels like I am being myself, but be shunned or held at a distance, or else suppress some deepest part of myself in order to pass for normal and have a (possibly vain) hope of fitting in (not that I've ever in my life managed to "fit in.")   Do I lobotomize myself (cf. "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest") in order to have some place (however menial) in human society?  Or do I stand in solidarity with this part of myself and spend the rest of my life in not-so-splendid isolation?

I've never thought of myself as trans-gendered, only maybe gender variant, because I've never felt like I was "a woman trapped in a man's body," but some of this stuff is awfully like what transgendered people are writing.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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JLT1

Asche,

Today, be what you are. Sometimes, just enjoy the now.   But you are on a journey.  Be open to possiblities.

Hugs,

Jen.
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Jamie D

I dare say, Asche, that many of us who post to this board feel neither like a "woman trapped in a man's body," nor "a man trapped in a woman's body."

It seems to me that the mixed presentation is in keeping with the non-binary identity.  As far as gender presentation goes, just take a look at how many cultures have unisex clothing such as sarongs (or their functional equivalent).  It is only misguided societal norms that would make you feel revulsion.  Be a trend-setter!  Be happy with yourself.
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Kaelin

At least around people who support you, I think you're obligated to show them the real you.  I'd feel better about the all-black comment if I knew that the women were dressing that way for concerts as well, but it does sound like an indication of support.  The gender blending approach tends to drive away a lot of people, but there are still others who will embrace it (although finding them can be challenging at times).

A "lobotomy" or something else isn't going to help so much, because whatever treatment you'd hope to escape with is going to change who you are, and the "side effects" are probably going to do more harm than good.  I met someone who was studying math who had a eye disorder that caused his eye positioning to shake around, but he didn't want to get it fixed because a typical outcome was diminished ability to study (at least in math).  Even if non-conformity was a disorder (and it's not), I still think you'd probably be giving up something valuable to try to "fix" it, and I don't think that the "many" relationships you maybe make afterwards are going to feel as good as the "few" you're making now.

The WPATH Standards of Care say they're "for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People."  Even if you identify with your assigned gender, and even if you argue yourself into the idea that you're not transgender as a result (that you only nonconform on expression and not identity), there is still a decent amount of overlap in experience, and you basically belong in the same room.  That you've listed your gender as "?" should make you even closer to their situation, because if you do adopt a non-cisgendered identity (trans-binary, third-gender, non-gender, fluctuating gender, whatever), you're unequivocally in their camp, but you need to feel free that you're equally good, your challenges are equally genuine, and your thoughts are equally authentic regardless of the identity you may end up adopting.  That we have the androgyne board here (and it fits you well) is a vote from Susan that you're already welcome in this corner of the Internet, regardless of where things go from here.

I think it is misguided for your therapist to give you the idea that you're pushing away people, because that attribution implies you don't want others around you.  I don't think you'd be in a choir if you felt that way.  Nor do I think you present this way to mess with others.  You probably wouldn't be talking about giving yourself a lobotomy if you felt you just had those reasons -- and if you just wanted to mess with people, you'd probably use more variety, do something easier, or take on something that makes you less vulnerable.  Your presentation may drive some people away, but that effect is a combination of your presentation, social norms deeming your presentation "weird," and those people taking those social norms to heart, and the moral blame does not lie with you (I'd blame the social norms myself, and the institutions which perpetuate them).  If your therapist is blaming you, you probably need a new therapist.
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Natkat

I know people who had blue hair,pircings everywhere, who have a beard and wear dresses, or skirt and hairy legs with make up and masuline look beside.

I do not rejejct those people for there look, if I rejejct them I do for there behaviour, the same time my dad dress in a horrible "all farmer clothing all out of style, but I do not reject that he is my dad.
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I somethimes enjoy looking more queer, othertimes more casual and I also get into trouble, specially when it comes to work and dresscodes I had a strugle to fit in and look presentateable.
however mentally I belive it best just to be yourself and even if I sort of belive you may scare people away with your look, you must remember true people who care would not be jugding you on that by the first place.

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Lo

Yep! The people who mind don't matter, and the people who matter don't mind.

That's what it comes down to for me.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Asche on December 08, 2013, 07:31:19 PM
I've never thought of myself as trans-gendered, only maybe gender variant, because I've never felt like I was "a woman trapped in a man's body," but some of this stuff is awfully like what transgendered people are writing.

Asche, I wrote the exact same thing last year.

Back then I considered myself androgyne, but I've learned that not all transgender people relate to the "trapped" metaphor. Many, like me, simply feel uncomfortable with the traditional gender presentation of their gender or have a desire (as I did) to live as a member of the other gender.

It helped me realize that transgender experiences vary considerable. There's almost nothing about which you could say "I don't feel/do/want X so I'm not Trans."

I made the decision to transition. I've been living as a woman for nearly six months now, and I feel like I've been far truer to myself during this time than during my entire life before.

I still don't "feel like I'm a woman" whatever that means. I suspect I'm a classic case of non-binary gender, someone with elements of both genders. That made it challenging to find the right presentation for me, but what I'm doing now feels right.

I hope this helps. Good luck. Keep your mind open to all possibilities as you explore.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Asche

Quote from: Kaelin on December 09, 2013, 07:26:44 AMI'd feel better about the all-black comment if I knew that the women were dressing that way for concerts as well, but it does sound like an indication of support.
Everyone was wearing all black.  Sopranos and altos also wore a colorful scarf.  We have two women singing tenor, and the one next to me was indeed wearing a (black) skirt.  I was perfectly willing to wear pants for the concert, as I saw no reason to draw attention to myself at a public performance (except, hopefully, by the beauty of my singing :) )


Quote from: Kaelin on December 09, 2013, 07:26:44 AMA "lobotomy" or something else isn't going to help so much, because whatever treatment you'd hope to escape with is going to change who you are,...
That's the point.  All my life I've gotten the message that I will never be accepted for who I am, so if I want to be accepted, I have to change who I am, or at least pretend to be someone different.  Which I have been an utter failure at.

What this little experience is showing/reminding me is that my "odd" dress (to use my therapist's term) comes from something very deep within me.  It's not just something I'm doing for the hell of it, which is how a lot of people take it.  I don't know if the therapist is taking it that way.  I don't even know if what I am hearing is anywhere close to what he was saying, either.  I go into these things expecting to be rejected or told I'm doing it wrong and it takes me a long time to trust that that's not what is going to happen.

"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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Asche

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 09, 2013, 01:15:08 PMI still don't "feel like I'm a woman" whatever that means. I suspect I'm a classic case of non-binary gender, someone with elements of both genders. That made it challenging to find the right presentation for me, but what I'm doing now feels right.
I don't "feel like I'm a woman," nor do I "feel like I'm a man," other than anatomically (and by training.)

My mixed presentation is as much as anything a compromise between my desires and my anatomy.  I have a beard because I don't like to shave (I think if I were a woman I would be one of those women who refuses to shave her legs or armpits or -- FSM forbid -- her privates), and anyway even if I shave, it's still obvious that there's something to shave.  And my body shape is unmistakably male.  So rather than be a bad imitation of a woman, I prefer to present as a man who wears women's-style clothes, but designed for a male body.  (Yes, I make my own clothes.)  I also have a phobia of pretending to be what I'm not (I'd make a lousy spy) and getting caught.

I sometimes think that if I could be magically transformed into a woman (not just SRS and hormones, but the whole thing), I might go for it.  Or maybe not -- I might feel just as straight-jacketed in the role of a woman.  (Especially with all the @#$% they have to put up with.)

BTW, thanks to all the people who responded.  It makes me feel less alone with all this.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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Kaelin

If you can't bring yourself to present as desired for a concert, it's worth continuing to do so for rehearsal -- it at least might embolden others to nudge/encourage/drag you through the door even if you can't muster the move on your own, or it may make it easier to take the plunge at a less-formal performance.

I don't think whether you are or are not a woman really depends on whether you'd "look good" or not -- it's about your brain.  You have given decent counter-statements that you don't feel like a woman anyway, but even if you don't feel you could ever transition for practical reasons, it's not necessarily a bad idea to try to figure out who you are without the boundaries of appearance -- although boundaries from the gender binary are likely what was making you contemplate the female binary role in the first place.  You may simply want to be Asche, with your gender regarded as irrelevant for all matters (so people aren't trying to force you into an identity that binds you to an arbitrary set of rules that no person should be held to, but rules that exist due to societal forces).

With that in mind, you may need a new therapist, because your values are so far apart that your therapist seems to have trouble properly engaging with you.  From my best interpretation of your posts, you don't feel that anyone should be forced into gender norms or be discriminated for/against, even if they do possess a binary gender identity.  Any such rules (how you dress) with arbitrary conditions (such as gender) that do not serve an essential purpose (like obligating a certain minimum of clothing be worn in certain locations for public health reasons, or compelling someone to pay reasonable dues for a society they wish to be a member of) should be done away with.  It's not necessary to have a therapist who says you're doing the right thing, but the person shouldn't be amplifying messages that are already making you feel guilty -- a good one will force you to articulate your thoughts (which you are already doing decently in here) or will pose questions that compel a more neutral/open-ended response to intellectually stimulate you (to help you solve your problems).  Instead of a therapist referring to your dress as "odd," a therapist should say "the way you dress" or "your presentation" (and maybe ask about how it feels, where you're doing it, where you'd like to do it, how does your family and social circle respond to it, what your plans are, etc).  You may feel challenged at times, but you shouldn't feel miserable for it.
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Taka

men in skirts can be totally hot. depends a little on the style (and the eye of the beholder) though. please don't abandon your skirts just because of something one person said, there are likely to be more who actually kind of like your clothing style, than the few who oppose it.
https://www.google.no/search?q=male+skirts&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=R9uyUuGpFcSC4gTLoIGgCg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=704#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=men's+skirts&tbm=isch

it's not your clothing that keeps people on a distance. it's more about how close you'll let them get to you. the things you say with words or body language. whether or not you smile, and when you smile if you do.

even with pink hair, i managed to shut up high school kids and make them listen seriously to their lesson. we also managed to become as good friends as students and teacher can be without things getting weird.
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VeronicaLynn

Almost all of this is about having the confidence to pull off whatever look you are wanting to pull off. Cis-gendered people even have this feeling at times, if they are trying a new style...I've reinvented myself more times than Madonna...sometimes it's crossed gender lines more than others...every time it's just as awkward until I get comfortable with my new look...the whole experience can be a confidence building experience if you approach it that way...
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Asche

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on December 19, 2013, 10:55:49 PM
Almost all of this is about having the confidence to pull off whatever look you are wanting to pull off.
I think I'm fairly successful at creating a look that I can stand behind.  At least that's how I feel about it.

It's when I don't feel self-confident that I "lose."  I have to convince myself that there are people out there who accept me before I can feel confident.  I'm inclined to see the glass as half-empty (or mostly empty), anyway, so it's like I have to do a con job on myself to feel confident.  It doesn't take much to punch a hole in the con job.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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Asche

Quote from: Taka on December 19, 2013, 05:51:34 AMit's not your clothing that keeps people on a distance. it's more about how close you'll let them get to you....
Rationally, I agree with you.  I'm probably responding to people in ways that push them away.

But I can't see it.  And, deep down inside, I've always been convinced that I'm a worthless person that no decent person would want to get within arm's length of.  Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.  ~25 years of therapy helped me act most of the time like I don't feel that way, but the conviction is still there, like an underground reservoir of sewage, and it doesn't take much to tap into it and let all that compressed sewage shoot out.

BTW, many thanks for your many kind words.

"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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B. Battles

Hi Asche,

I'm not sure if you'll find this helpful, but I'd like you to know that you're not alone and there are people who will really love how you are and how you present yourself. Back in August I was at an exhibit where there was a bearded androgynous person. They wore a tailored dress and were well groomed. I was completely taken with them. I had an instant crush. I didn't say anything though, of course, because I was too shy. So, instead I pretended that I hadn't noticed and tried not to stare (which is hard to do when you think someone looks gorgeous).

It sounds like the people at your chorus accept you and as my story is meant to illustrate there are other people who will like the way you dress too. It's true that the way you present yourself, aesthetically speaking, will communicate something to people but your therapist's inference that it is driving people away is a little unfair. Sure, it will turn people off with don't like androgyny, but on the other hand it will appeal to people who do. Not to mention there are a whole ton of people who don't care either way.


"Some people like what you do, some people hate what you do, but most people simply don't give a damn."

― Charles Bukowski




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Space Pirate

The phrase I just keep telling myself over and over through this, and one that's gotten me through some pretty dark days is this: I am what I am.  Your life is your life and if your therapist doesn't get it, you're the one paying them, not the other way around.

My own psychiatrist, who I've been seeing for both psychopharmacology and therapy since I was thirteen (I'm six months from thirty, so it's been a loooooooooooong time) struggles with this.  It isn't for a lack of empathy but a lot of people, even supposedly trained professionals just don't know.  Especially if you're in an area without a lot of diversity, most people only know in the abstract.  I live in an area with a huge arts scene, so people encounter androgyny a lot more often than other places, but if I go back to my hometown where everyone claims to be tolerant on paper, because they don't encounter it day-to-day they have no idea how to react.  We work off a script.  When you go off script people have no idea what to do and this confuses them, and if they aren't used to adjusting the script because everyone else is performing the same act they are, they struggle.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane.

-Philip K Dick
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