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Passing & stealth; and bigotry, hate, and prejudges!

Started by Godiva, July 05, 2007, 09:58:18 AM

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Godiva

Although, I detest most competitive sports, in favor of more communal and nurturing activities, I am going to use a sports idiom for the sake of expediency. The transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others. The transgender community must be welcomed at the table of equality to bargain for it fare share of power sharing and claims to societal resources. To achieve this takes monumental and deliberate effort. The most important aspect of this change is how people think about transgender individuals. Individual members of our community must be taken seriously and regarded with due and equal respect, like all should receive in a functional and balanced community that does not just tolerate, but truly values diversity for the contribution all are capable of making to society.

How are we to achieve this is the central question. I will start my remarks by quoting another contributor to this forum that has made, in my opinion, one of the most important contributions to this site I have read. Please, do not misinterpret my intentions regarding this quote. I am praising, not flaming this individual for her courage and insight. In fact, I have had to struggle with my own issues in regards to her point, but the issue is key to our progress to total societal acceptance.


   Why Do I Feel Uncomfortable When I See a Very "Unpassable" Transwomen
« on: June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM »   
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Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.



Most would expect to hear a response to the question of societal acceptance of transgender individuals; that it must start with self acceptance. I am not going to make this trite, shallow, and over used reply to this very serious question that can involve issues of life and death of members of our community. Equality must be extended to all by all, whom truly value and love humanity in all of its exquisite manifestations of beauty.  If we as transgender people are having difficulty in acceptance of ourselves and other transgender individuals based on our appearance, it is a result of how the larger society makes transgender individual feel about ourselves and people like them.

There is no denying the fact, that since the beginning of time, beauty has not just been valued by society, but has also been very much a standard and indicator of social, cultural and financial success. Unfortunately, the opposite of beauty, particularly feminine beauty, has historically been socially shunned and harshly treated by society. To value physical beauty is an integral aspect of the human condition. The standards of beauty are as old as humanity itself, and how people respond to it, is as equally ancient. Can this be changed so to allow those that do not meet these strict social standards of beauty to be totally and equally enfranchised by society? I think so.... but not easily. There have been many, throughout history that were not beautiful, but found a way to be fully loved and embraced by society. This is not just an issue of passing or stealth as a transgender person, the issue of personal beauty goes well beyond this. But the issue of not passing as a transsexual makes you an open and conspicuous target for societal scrutiny.

Given, the present state of bigotry, hatred, prejudges that exists in society towards transsexual people, the issue of passing can very easily be a serious issue of life and death, and absolutely must be taken very seriously by all within the community and by those attempting to provide aid and comfort to members of the community. Nothing said or done, by anyone, within or outside the community should compromise this issue. This issue is, if one seeks to understand fully the transsexual community, the place one needs to begin there search for understanding about transsexualism. This is the starting place that, like no other issue, defines success.

What can be done beyond passing in seeking complete societal enfranchisement? First we must not be complacent! We must ask ourselves and others the hard questions. These questions must be addressed to all, especially those within our community and to those well intended individuals that have attempted to help the transgender community. These questions should be asked, not in the spirit of confrontation, but in the spirit cooperative enquiry into the inadequacies of past approaches to the problems we face as a community, and how to make them more affective in gaining equality within the larger society. Humility and shared effort are absolutely bedrock to achieving progress.

Godiva
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Rachael

*sigh* if this is a revival of that locked topic, this will follow suit rather quickly i fear.
my 2p: It is going to be a LONG LONG LONG time before society can see a 'man in a dress' and be broad minded enough to accept them as a woman. For now, society atleast in the western world works on a gender binary to a large extent. men, and women. Not passing is no reason to stop trying, if you do, you will simply be miserable. Passing is a wonderful feeling. your finally who you are. inside and outside are congruent. Im currently living semi stealth, only my two housemates, and some friends i already have know, but thats it, they know about something thats the past. I came out to my male housemate the other day after living with him a week, and its an od experiece telling someone you were once male externally, very different to saying your really a girl inside... and to me, very embaracing, and thats why passing is important to me, yeah its about me, but i do the external things for society, i could not transition and feel fine inside, knowing im a girl, but i want to be treated as one, thus i put the effort in, and contry to a lot of trans folk, i only started 'dressing' in female clothes a few months post hrt. I only started wearing a bra since i needed it... yeah, im a bit odd, but i dont care, im a normal girl that fits into society nicely, i identify as female, not a transexual female, ive transitioned yes, but from female inside and male outside to female everywhere, isnt that the point? Why must there a be a transgender community to be accepted? or a gay community? or a black community? surely society is what we want? surely a world where nobody cares what colour, sexuality or gender plays in a person, aside from who they are... he transgender community only serves to fuel the segregation and social grouping of society.
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Jessica

QuoteThe transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others.

We can demand until we are blue in the face.
That doesn't mean that it will be granted.
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Shana A

Godiva,

Thanks for a truly insightful post. I agree that these issues you bring up are important. Transphobia is deeply entrenched in our society, and we need to look at and confront our own internalized phobias to transcend them and to create a world where it will be safe for all of us to live as whatever gender we are.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Rachael

Quote from: Jessica on July 05, 2007, 12:32:47 PM
QuoteThe transgender community must reach a point in society that its individual members are able to demand total inclusion and acceptance on an equal playing field with all others.

We can demand until we are blue in the face.
That doesn't mean that it will be granted.
i agree, the more we 'demand' the less people are likely to give us anything we ask... behaving like spoilt children will just get us treated like them.
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Sandi

Quote from: GodivaUnfortunately, the opposite of beauty, particularly feminine beauty, has historically been socially shunned and harshly treated by society. To value physical beauty is an integral aspect of the human condition. The standards of beauty are as old as humanity itself, and how people respond to it, is as equally ancient. Can this be changed so to allow those that do not meet these strict social standards of beauty to be totally and equally enfranchised by society? I think so.... but not easily. There have been many, throughout history that were not beautiful, but found a way to be fully loved and embraced by society. This is not just an issue of passing or stealth as a transgender person, the issue of personal beauty goes well beyond this. But the issue of not passing as a transsexual makes you an open and conspicuous target for societal scrutiny.

First I agree with you on much of the post, especially about bigotry and hatred. But the reasons some of us are shunned and treated harshly has little to do with any lack of beauty. If that was so, genetic woman lacking beauty would be shunned and treated harshly too. Now it is true that some of the opposite gender may, to a small extent, shun one lacking in beauty, but not for the reasons you state.

More often than not, we are treated harshly because of our own attitudes and fears. I've known some, who had told their story and come out at work. Said that they were female, and happier with life as female, then went around with a long face and snarled at everyone. That doesn't make living their new life sound very convincing.

When I transitioned on the job my story was similar to this person's, except that I actually went around happy and cheerful, and if someone didn't accept me, I smiled and moved on. Eventually a friend who had known me for over 20 years said, "I can tell that this is the real you." It made me very happy of course, but I knew without her later explanation why she felt I was happier, was because, I was, and I acted like it. There was little difference in how well either of us passed, it was our attitude and the way we treated society that made the difference in how we were treated.

As a former member here once said:

QuoteGID doesn't make you a member of the opposite sex. It only makes you Think you are and at that point you are subject to all of the same variations that exist with in that gender and all persons of a particular gender don't meet the cultural/social expectations of others for that gender. It is how you relate to/with and are axcepted by the opposite sex and or gender that determines your actual membership. Once you take that to the bank, they cash it in for you and life becomes brighter, trust me on this.

The core identity simply is not affected by the views of others, rather how we are able to face the world with that core identity because of our own fear which is a product of the views of others until delt with and conquered within ourselves. The core identity can only come through in it's fullest expression when it has ceased to be afraid to do so and actually has learned to respect itself for what it is.

In other words, the GID itself is not in conflict. Instincts such as self preservation and pride are instead in conflict with GID.
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Kara



If passing was not that big of a deal, we would all throw on dresses and call it a day. When we could afford SRS, we would do it.

No vocal training

No Hormones

No Therapy

No hair removal

No nothing...

I think that it is wonderful that someone can feel that comfortable enough in their own skin to not make much of an effort to pass but I do wonder their motivation. Regardless of how we feel inside, at the end of the day we work towards validation of our Identities by others. We all want peace inside but cannot deny the comfort of peace outside. Relevant or not, that is how I feel.


BTW, Communities, while needed for social change, more often than not, do more harm than good on an individual level. Renae was a good example of this. With "Communities" come messages that are attempted to be sent out to the rest of the world. These messages ultimately only cover one point of view. This immidiately disenfranchises(sp?) everyone who feel differently. This causes division in the "community" and tends to push many away. Happens with Blacks, Gays, Christians, and pretty much any other people who choose to come under one banner.

Unity requires a clear cut agenda, complete with objectives and an expiration date.


laters...
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Laura Eva B

The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure ...

Even if you are "read" appearance, mannerism, and voice tempers reaction, even most guys will accept a good looking TS woman, yes "beauty" trumps all !

But I think it is a lost cause if we expect anything other than upturned eyebrows, stares, ridicule, even hostility, towards someone who is obviously male presenting as female ?

Sad fact is that society is not accepting of things outside of the norm .... and "man in a frock"  just invites laughter and abuse.

Personally I have no wish to fight for the acceptance and rights of indiviuals who will never pass, I'm happy as I am, to be seen as a woman, and someone who will "woodwork" as time passes .... really sad but its where I am, and its the big divider within the TS community.

Successfull and convincing post-ops go their own way and dissapear off the register of "social acceptance" leaving the "unpassables" to represent the TS condition !

Would I go to a bar or restaurant in the company of an unpassable TS ?  No way am I secure enough to do that (!), just like my reason for not campaigning but "blending".

Laura x
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Rachael

Laura, i agree entirely with your post, theres nice sentiments in the community, and its nice to be friendly, but at the end of the day, folk need to realise the harsh reality of this situation. stop living in cookoo land, and to me, if a trans woman doesnt care about passing, and just wants to wear female clothes and be seen as female socially, surely thats along the lines of CD, TV? Transition is about becoming physically female...
i do have a problem with my own passability, i know im attractive enough, and i do see myself as female in the mirror more often than not, but my self confidence throws me sometimes, and the fact i think id be read more around an unpassable trans person is fairly justified. Point is, this is a medical problem, once we pass totally, and are post op, we can have the normal life we want. Sure, theres plenty who want to campaign, and fight, but thier guilt tripping those who want to have normal lives i find unacceptable. We are not leaving the unpassable people to represent the condition, many dont pass by choice TO represent it. I for one will live my life as i was meant to once im post op, as myself, with my own goals, and for number one. i dont think thats biggoted, or selfish, i think its my right.
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Jessica

Yes Laura and Rachel, unfortunately, that is absolutely correct. 
It is the reality of the condition.

So, let me ask you this.

What am I to do knowing that it isn't possible for me to ever pass?
Hold out as long as I can before charging into a police station with a toy glock?
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Rachael

you could try doing as much as is possible, and surgery does work. ive yet to find someone who could NEVER pass.
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Keira


Yeah, but surgery for some to pass is 50K or more (not to mention that this pushes back SRS quite a bit more), are you going to bankroll that?

On many jobs, it could take quite a while to be able to get that kind of money, meanwhile
you would be severely depressed possibly for 5 years and more.
Its easy to sit in your, and my situation, and say such thing

It also depends where you are. In certain areas, not passing has much worse consequences than others, which means that passing half-way is not really an option, unless you want to face death every day.

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Jessica

Let me restructure the arguement.

This is the main idea.
QuoteThe only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" ... is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

Lets Negate That:
A transexual woman will not find a "happy life" ... unless she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

Obviously Life isn't happy in your birth sex or you wouldn't be here.

Therefore, the only way to be happy is to: "pass absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure."

And if that isn't possible, No Happy Life.

You sure leave a lot of options open for those that don't pass.

Jessica
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Rachael

we arnt selecting options, society does that, i dont think its fair to start having a go at those who can pass because they do.

and your right Kiera, i forgot how much it costs >.<
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Jessica

I'm not having a go at anyone.

I'm deconstructing an arguement and saying it has no place in a support site like Susan's.

Fortunately I'm not a moderator and don't make those decisions.

It was this type of arguement that has been the cause of so many locked topics I can't even count them.

I think the flaw (which I initially agreed with but then recognized it for what it was) is as follows:
A transexual woman will not find a "happy life" ... unless she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.

There are plenty of people who don't meet that criteria that have found a happy life.
Because it's not necessarily what is on the outside that makes you happy.

I'm out of this topic.
Jessica
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Sandi

Quote from: Laura Eva BThe only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" ... is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure.
I think you are trying to put me in a box that I don't fit into. I'm very sure that I don't pass close to 90% of the time, though I think probably more often than not. However the happiness in my life isn't predicated on how well I pass. Only on how I am accepted by friends, neighbors, and most others I deal with. My happiness comes from within. No one (NO ONE) can take that away from me, anymore than they can take my dignity away.

Sure I hope to pass and be accepted as much as possible, but I knew before starting transition what I was getting into, and accepted that there would be bumpy times.

One neighbor wouldn't talk to me for a long time, except an occasional "sir" or other intentional mis-use of pronouns. Instead of rolling my eyes, or a harsh remark I would smile and once even winked at him. As this is a friendly neighborhood, and neighbors here get together often to chat in one yard or another, eventually he was corrected by neighbors a couple times. Whether he changed because he saw he wasn't bothering me, or because of comments from other neighbors I don't know, or care. He tolerates me now, and is even friendly, at least to my face.

People our attitudes and the way we react can be the biggest factor in how we are accepted when read. If some attitudes don't change, I avoid them as much as possible, but I refuse to them change my life.
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Rachael

the arguments havent caused the lockage, no view point can really. its the ensueing fights between differnet camps OVER the subject that gets the topics locked.

and tbh, i think it DOES have a place on susans, granted this is a support site, BUT we need to accept that we transition in the wider world, not on susans, and we need to understand life, not flit around throwing flowers iaround the ethernet... the world is harsh, here of anywhere, we need to understand and prepare ourselves for it. not propogate unsustainable ideas.
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Kate

Quote from: Sandi on July 06, 2007, 02:08:27 PM
People our attitudes and the way we react can be the biggest factor in how we are accepted when read. If some attitudes don't change, I avoid them as much as possible, but I refuse to them change my life.

Exactly. Since I've been here, I've been warned of SO many awful things: I'll be fired, disowned, neighbors will kick me out, my employer will seize my computer, my friends won't adapt, my wife will leave, people will think me a pervert and hide their kids... and they just didn't happen.

I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

~Kate~
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Lori

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
Exactly. Since I've been here, I've been warned of SO many awful things: I'll be fired, disowned, neighbors will kick me out, my employer will seize my computer, my friends won't adapt, my wife will leave, people will think me a pervert and hide their kids... and they just didn't happen.

I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

~Kate~


Have you considered why those things didnt happen?  Because you pass? Do you think it would have been the same for you if you looked like a man with lipstick and a bra?

We have had this converstion many times here at Susan's. The issue isn't whether we at Susan's or other transsexuals are open or supportive. Most that find their way here are more sensitive to the passing issue and know how much it hurts those that don't and we are more open and understanding.

Arguing about who is more Intersexed, more female, more sexy, more pretty, more passing or whatever doesnt help the issue. You are barking up the wrong tree or beating a horse that has been beaten so many times in the past it gets really old to read.

The issue is not how society is supposed to be or how we want it to be. It's how it really is in real life. As long as you live in LA LA land where everybody is educated and understanding then the more ignorant and blissful you can be. More power to you if you think everybody lives in a world where everyone is accepted. For those that live in the real world though, they know society is cruel and not very understanding nor are they ready to deal with somebody that dresses as the opposite sex yet looks nothing like the sex they are trying to imitate.

I have been out with non passing TS's. I mean ones that have had srs and still look like men. Not just in the face, but the frame, hands, neck, shoulders, arms, legs, you name it. Think of John Elway with a bra, long hair, makeup and a vagina and no hrt. I understand that is the best they can do. I understand they are not freaks and they are nice people and its o.k to be with them. Society on the other hand.. well lets just say the public does not like it. They stare, point, whisper, sir them to death and it is really sad but ya know, that is just how it is. Here these people are, post op for 5years and they still have to go to support groups because they are just not happy and they will never pass. They never will acheive what they desire. It is not their fault. They did the best they could. It's just not good enough most of the time though, but the issue is does not lay with them. They could be happier if society would just accept them and let them be themselves.

Life is going to be much easier if you pass or look somewhat like your target sex. If you cannot pass at all, you better have a huge sense of humor and a really thick skin. It is not impossible to live transitioned and not pass, but it is far better and much easier if you do pass. I won't go as far to say they will never be happy not passing because I believe there is a way to be happy for anybody that truly desires it.

Honestly, I'm scared to death. I have seen society in action with non passing TS's. I dont want to be one. I shudder to think that if that is the best I can do, when it is my turn, I'll put that pistol in my mouth and be done with it. I will not live like those people. I refuse to. I can only hope that I will pass one day and hope for the best. After 36 days of hrt, there is no way of knowing yet. I still have time.
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Laura Eva B

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
I know these things DO happen, but I also think we project our own insecurities at times onto a world which is far kinder and deserving of respect than we give it credit for.

Kate, I so agree, where I live people are not out to be hostile, most of us live our lives to make friends, to get on with people; exchanging "small talk" with total strangers on train or bus makes us realise that we've more in common than we are different. 

Sometimes I think I'm drawn into friendly chat by other women because they've "read" me and they're curious, but I guess that's just my paranoia.

Passability is not a "holy grail" as you can be seen as a "TS woman", and still find strangers respect you, feel you are "brave" in what you're doing, and are really friendly. 

The important thing is to present yourself as best you can, be smart always (women read a lot into clothes - at work its "I really love that top" etc.) but "dress to blend", be seen to be confident and absolutely at ease in yourself. 

But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

Sure there are your old accquaintances, but what if they drift away, what if you "re-locate" for work or another reason ?  We have long lives ahead of us and we don't want to be solitary ....

Will you always be constrained to a kind of "TS ghetto", and be forced to seek to find support and friendship in the TS/TV/TG world .... not the "real" world ?

Guess by living a "happy life" I meant living the life I would have wanted if I'd been been born in the correct gender, or as second best living unambiguously as a woman. 

For some "happy life" might just mean happier than their pre-transitioned existence.  But if you don't pass, and really think you'll never pass, then you're making some really tough decisions about balancing "inner contentment" with the harsh reality of living for ever as a visible "TS woman" ?

Hard decisions ?

Laura x
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