Yet another Yeson VFS thread

[Charlotte]

It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered enough on the phone that I got frustrated with it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1IL24PWe1fE (it's kinda loud and badly recorded!) and there's an example of the lip trills I'm so fond of.

It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone. This is what I figured out back in october and it was quite uncomfortable to do initially. I also don't understand why my speech therapist never focused on that?

Jennygirl: that's awesome I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Hi Voodle,
I listened to the recording and it's absolutely female. For my 2 cents the second half is more an issue of resonance rather than pitch. To me it just sounds like a woman trying to do a serious voice maybe like a news presenter. So whoever misgendered you wasn't listening very closely IYSWIM.   I'm very glad it all worked out ok for you in the end! Out of interest how does the second half of your recording compare with your pre-surgery voice?

It sounds good if your voice settles higher now more easily, thats definitely a plus. I am not sure about the recording - it sounds fine to me throughout but I guess I am not the best person to judge such things.

What still confuses me is why one needs to train to raise pitch. Basically this is what my voice therapist is trying now already - we do lip trills a lot plus exercises with exxagerrated questions - the goal there is to go really up in pitch at the end of saying for example "what?" and by that get more comfortable using the upper range. I found I also will actually have a higher pitch overall if I do a lot of these. But my hope somehow is that with a VFS this would not be needed so much or be easier. Because I have a hard time to get up in pitch and stay there with training exercises a lot. My therapist claims if I do this really a lot and practice daily, that I would be able to raise my pitch (she is opposed to VFS, so I apologize if some of her doubts seep through me now ).
So basically what training are you doing then? Lip trills only or do you also do some other exercises?

Greetings

Hi Anja,
In the last couple of months since I booked surgery I've been doing all my old voice therapy exercises again because I read that pre-op voice therapy, surgery, and the post-op voice therapy gives the best results. (This wasn't specific to Yeson, but voice surgery in general). As a result my voice actually has improved a bit so sometimes I wonder whether I could get there just by practice alone. In the end though I think the answer is no. I've been struggling with my voice for so many years that it's got to be more than a just a lack of skill (i.e., a physiological issue).

I have read that Dr. Kim ties off 1/2 to 1/3 depending on the individual, but does anyone know what would happen if a person got tied at 2/3? would the person sound like a chipmunk? lol.

Hi Junebug,
I wonder if anyone other than Jenny has had more than a 1/3 of the vocal fold tied off? Everyone seems to get the standard 1/3. Like Jenny I also had a tracheal shave to get rid of my massive adams apple so I worry that could make a difference to the result a bit.

[Ducks]

re: training to raise pitch, I'm not an expert but I recall my early testing was to find fundamental frequency but also habitual pitch.  Habitual pitch is where we hold our voice through habit.  For me it was lower than my fundamental frequency, so I am guessing that for those who get this surgery need to also change their habitual pitch.  I imagine it sounds 'wrong' when the physical changes force a higher pitch, and if we didn't train ourselves to be comfortable with a higher pitched voice, we would continually drop back into our comfort zone or "habitual pitch".  I think that this surgery isn't a magic cure, it is a tool to help make your habitual pitch / speaking voice easier to contain within the normal female range. 

Training also helps learn the muscles necessary to keep the larynx high and so reduce resonance which is often the hardest thing to get rid of.  Anyone who has to talk to someone else in the bathroom knows how 'boomy' our voices can be, and raising the larynx to reduce resonance can fix that booming quality.

I think I will go back to speech training before I book surgery to get into the best shape vocally for a good result. 

My $.02

[anjaq]

Hi Anja,
In the last couple of months since I booked surgery I've been doing all my old voice therapy exercises again because I read that pre-op voice therapy, surgery, and the post-op voice therapy gives the best results. (This wasn't specific to Yeson, but voice surgery in general). As a result my voice actually has improved a bit so sometimes I wonder whether I could get there just by practice alone. In the end though I think the answer is no. I've been struggling with my voice for so many years that it's got to be more than a just a lack of skill (i.e., a physiological issue).

Yes, I think there is something to that. I am struggling for a long time too, but admittedly my voice training was not that extensive and doing something wrong for 10 years was of no use. But now I am trying more, still cannot get it really well even with training... So I am not sure it is really such a great possibility.

But what Duck says also makes sense - that a lot seems to be about habitual speaking frequency. This is hard to change. I keep falling back down from an otherwise rather o.k. speaking pitch by habit. I guess with surgery it is harder to fall down because your voice then breaks apart, so you have a reminder to not do that again.

Resonance is still a puzzle to me. I did some resonance training and it seemed to have worked but it also seems that by doing that I was harming my voice as now that we have corrected my voice issues in respect to the wrong use of my vocal folds my voice soounds boomy again. I am not sure it is male resonance so much as it is once more using my full vocal folds which makes the voice fuller and more resonant overall but that is supposedly ok. There are so many components to this. To eliminate resonance as much as possible was what I did for a while, but that sounds bad too and harms the voice in the long run. So resonance is needed, but it has to be the correct one... tricky

[Jennygirl]

Ducks you are absolutely right about VFS not being a magical cure on its own- I have tried to stress this over and over!

[voodle]

Hi Voodle,
I listened to the recording and it's absolutely female. For my 2 cents the second half is more an issue of resonance rather than pitch. To me it just sounds like a woman trying to do a serious voice maybe like a news presenter. So whoever misgendered you wasn't listening very closely IYSWIM.   I'm very glad it all worked out ok for you in the end! Out of interest how does the second half of your recording compare with your pre-surgery voice?

Thank you It has been getting better lately, my voice in the latter part of that clip is somewhat different from how I sounded pre-surgery, but it's more subtle, my voice was definitely deeper before with an average frequency of 120hz and an overall deeper resonance. My trained voice after surgery sounds a lot better than anything I could do prior to the surgery as well.
I was very concerned that the surgery didn't work for a long time because my voice sounded nothing like a lot of the other Yeson patients but I have had a camera stuck down my throat to check and it has healed correctly so it appears that my using my voice incorrectly was the problem there

Hi Junebug,
I wonder if anyone other than Jenny has had more than a 1/3 of the vocal fold tied off? Everyone seems to get the standard 1/3. Like Jenny I also had a tracheal shave to get rid of my massive adams apple so I worry that could make a difference to the result a bit.

I actually had half my vocal chords tied also, but I'm not getting anything done about my adams apple because it's quite small.

Jenny: in regards to the Clonazepam, I think they gave me 150 pills in total. I took them for about 2 months after the surgery (once I could start using my voice) then had to stop.

[Charlotte]

I actually had half my vocal chords tied also, but I'm not getting anything done about my adams apple because it's quite small.

That's really interesting to know.    Did Dr Kim say why he decided to suture half? Was it just you had a low average frequency or was there some other reason? (I seem to remember Jenny saying part of the reason Dr Kim decided to suture half in her case was because she had damage on one of her cords).

[voodle]

I really have no idea but it was after the voice examination and I'm guessing it depends on the size of the vocal chords. I did ask Dr Kim about it and he said it depends on the patient but I don't recall the specifics.

[anjaq]

my voice in the latter part of that clip is somewhat different from how I sounded pre-surgery, but it's more subtle, my voice was definitely deeper before with an average frequency of 120hz and an overall deeper resonance.

LOL - somewhat different? I mean the difference between a 120 Hz voice and anything in that clip there, even the last part ist quite noticeable I would say
I guess one should not necessarily take a 240 Hz voice as a goal - sure it sounds femme-female but a 180 Hz or 200 Hz voice are great female range as well. I would not even want a 240 Hz voice, it would never fit me. For Jenny as I can see in the pictures and videos, it seems to fit and she started out a bit higher than 120 Hz as well. But we in the lower range of 110 or 120 Hz probably can be ok with a 170-180 Hz voice - it may not sound as femme but still female. I think with voice it is the same as with so many girly things - We would really like to be more on the femme side of female average if we could and then compare ourselves to in this case a 240 Hz voice, believeing that the change from 120 to 160, 170 or 180 Hz is subtle - but it is not really that - in a way it is a bit suble, jus tlike FFS can be sublte or the results in the face of a Hormone Therapy can be sublte but at the same time those seemingly small changes are what makes that difference between a male and female external perception.

[anjaq]

I really have no idea but it was after the voice examination and I'm guessing it depends on the size of the vocal chords. I did ask Dr Kim about it and he said it depends on the patient but I don't recall the specifics.

Given that Amy got less than a 1/3 suture as I understand it and had very short vocal chords, that seems to make sense. Plus probably the need for more pitch increase? In Dr Kims reply he said that he could not completely feminize my voice as I was starting at 110 Hz. I assume he would, if I still want to try, suggest possibly doing more than a 1/3, although I would assure him that I do not need a 220 Hz voice to feel ok, so maybe I would not need it - I think to overdo that, making the opening too small is bound to be harder to get used to in terms of breathing. I have now read two reports of women who felt that they had some issues with breathing in very fast post-OP, so I guess one can get used to that, but if this effect is more pronounced due to a larger suture, I can imagine it to be harder.

[AmyBerlin]

Hi Anja, all,

Given that Amy got less than a 1/3 suture as I understand it and had very short vocal chords, that seems to make sense.

Yes, I got slightly under 1/3, due to the length of my vocal cords and due to being around 150 Hz average in male mode before. However, I was able to reach down to 82 Hz before. So, Dr. Kim and I agreed to shoot for 220 Hz average afterwards, and 145 as the lower limit.

I think to overdo that, making the opening too small is bound to be harder to get used to in terms of breathing. I have now read two reports of women who felt that they had some issues with breathing in very fast post-OP, so I guess one can get used to that, but if this effect is more pronounced due to a larger suture, I can imagine it to be harder.

I have noticed no such effect postoperatively, not even under heavy physical exercise (45-minute run).

Regards,

Amy

[AmyBerlin]

Hi everybody,

it's postoperative day 24 and I've got news to report: up to now, I've literally used my voice only for seconds each day and it was very hard to get a sense of where it sat. So today, I conducted a little experiment: since I know my pre-op voice pretty well, I decided to produce a low note and put my larynx in the position that I would have used for an A2. Added breath, and out came: F3, a minor 6th higher. From there, I managed to gliss up an octave to F4 (feeling nowhere near any limit, though), and back down again, although (still) with miserable tone quality. If my lower limit is transposed in proportion, this would give me C3 as rock bottom, which is perfect for an alto. The whole test took under 10 seconds and was deliberately performed not to test any limits (it's far too early for that), but to verify that the core octave for feminine speaking is there.

I know, this is only a rough idea of where my voice is headed, but at least it can safely be said that the surgery did work. Which eases my mind a whole lot.

'Til next time, take care,

Amy

[Shantel]

Hi everybody,

it's postoperative day 24 and I've got news to report: up to now, I've literally used my voice only for seconds each day and it was very hard to get a sense of where it sat. So today, I conducted a little experiment: since I know my pre-op voice pretty well, I decided to produce a low note and put my larynx in the position that I would have used for an A2. Added breath, and out came: F3, a minor 6th higher. From there, I managed to gliss up an octave to F4 (feeling nowhere near any limit, though), and back down again, although (still) with miserable tone quality. If my lower limit is transposed in proportion, this would give me C3 as rock bottom, which is perfect for an alto. The whole test took under 10 seconds and was deliberately performed not to test any limits (it's far too early for that), but to verify that the core octave for feminine speaking is there.

I know, this is only a rough idea of where my voice is headed, but at least it can safely be said that the surgery did work. Which eases my mind a whole lot.

'Til next time, take care,

Amy

Congratulations! It is always so reassuring to know that another person is experiencing great success as a result of their trip to Yason.

[Charlotte]

Yay Amy! So very pleased for you! 

[Jmtl]

Congrats amy!!!! i wish you more fast recovery!! And give us news!!!

[anjaq]

Oh great Amy! Happy for you. Pretty neat that it really works that way that you actually do produce a higher tone with the same "setting" of the voice as before. This is what one is hoping for - meaning if you do the same thing as before surgery, everything just comes out a bit higher. Should make those higher pitches more easily available too. Great to hear.

[Lara1969]

Great to hear Amy! I hope your recovery will continue as good as it was.

Lara

[AmyBerlin]

Hi all,

2 more days to go until "general conversation" time. YAY!

This past month, I took it very easy on my voice and on most days, didn't speak at all. I notice it is getting easier and easier to make sounds. Although I personally think the timbre is pretty much unaffected by the surgery (I do notice the transposition, though!), my girlfriend says it's definitely feminized (without me making a conscious effort – my voice is still so feeble, I wouldn't even dare to twang it like I used to).

I contacted Jessie for some medication and voice maintenance questions and she assured me everything was normal and going according to plan. She also asked me to send in a "Rainbow Passage" each month for them to keep track of my recovery. So I'll be posting the same "Rainbow Passages" here, so you also can stay tuned how I'm doing vocally. When the time comes, I'll also try to sing a tune.

I'm so curious how things develop!

Greetings,

Amy

[Allyda]

I'm very happy for you Amy! I also look forward to your future "Rainbow Passages." Being able to hear how well you've come through this will very much help me with my decision.

Ally

[anjaq]

I totally second that.

And best wishes for Amy.

[alexiakk]

I had my VFS 4 days ago with Dr. Kim and I'm now in a "shut up" state. My pre-op pitch without raising is 174.6 Hz and the raising pitch is 182.1 Hz (OK I have to acknowledge that I do not know how to produce the feminine sound like a lot of you guys do), so the raising one, although it's raised a bit, it's still very easy and with no larynx modification technique.

Dr. Kim told me, my natural resonance method is already feminine in some sense (more precisely, like a kid? or like, Britney Spear-ish?), just that my articulation and the way I speak sounds like a early puberty boy, so he'd against me on learning those techniques by speech therapist. He predicted that if I try to learn those techniques my average Fo will be about 310 Hz, which is insane... he wants me to learn how to produce clear and light voice though.

I asked Dr. Kim about the same question on falsetto last time I asked him, and it was as what I thought - Asian singing studies just don't differentiate head voice and falsetto, instead they call them both "false voice" and thus "falsetto", so in Korean's terminology, soprano sings in falsetto (I misunderstood last time) lol He said "you don't have falsetto post-op" is in speaking, still able to produce that "head voice" or "falsetto" in their terminology after operation 


Added: mine was shorten only 1/4, as Dr. Kim doesn't want me to go in average 250 Hz when speaking...