Yet another Yeson VFS thread

[Charlotte]

Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

Amy, your voice is sounding really good for only 32 days post-op. Comparing your pre- and post-op voices I can tell what you mean by the reduction of the mid-high end it just sounds so much more relaxed.  I'd never really thought about it, but listening to recordings of my 'phone voice' I can hear it too. Maybe it's a common trait of all feminized trans voices. It's almost as if you can hear the effort required to raise the pitch that much.

[Charlotte]

I did some research on this, and it seems like to Asian people they only recognize 2 different voices - true voice and false voice. We'll have no speaking falsetto post-op so it's always in chest voice  I think to them falsetto and head voice sound similar so they put them in one category. But in fact "true" falsetto is quite rare to produce with short vocal cords; like my voice teacher told me that I don't know how to produce the "disconnected" falsetto but the "connected" head voice pre-op. Almost all voice types above mid-high tenor naturally uses head voice instead of falsetto.

Alexia, thank for explaining this! I think I understand now: chest and head voice are kind of the same thing with chest the low end of the range and head the high end of the range - both called 'true voice' in Asia. Falsetto, on the other hand, is a completely different method of voice production - called false voice in Asia. Does that make sense?

[MeganChristine]

Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

@Roni: I find your voice very appealing and feminine already, but I'm totally with you that it takes constant focus and effort to keep the voice there, which was my main reason to undergo VFS as well. So, if the effort problem doesn't prove unsurmountable, I'd do hair transplants first, then VFS. Just my 2¢, your mileage may vary.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

Hey there Amy,

First of all, congratulation on your VFS Sounds like you're healing well 32 days and speaking already YAY! Really looking forward to hear the future progression Have you started the exercises yet?

-MegC

[Roni]

Another vote for hair transplants first.  Have you decided if you'll go for FUT or FUE yet?

Hi Charlotte. 

Haven't really extensively looked into the differences between FUT and FUE. But as I understand it:

FUE
*More expensive
*Less visible scarring
*Hair results in regard to growth, strength, longevity, etc. slightly less better than that of FUT

FUT
*Less expensive
*More visible strip-like scarring
*Better results than FUE

Am I missing anything here? Right now I'm mainly concerned over the excellency of the results and would probably go for FUT considering it is cheaper, and the scarring does not bother me as I will be growing my hair out to cover the scar anyway. If someone could make a case for FUE, that would be great. 

[anjaq]

Amy, I think I am pretty impressed. Of course it will take a while longer to hear what will be your final voice, as it is now it still is breaking at times, probably because you are hitting the low end of your register, and it sounds rather breathy and not very high in volume, but its just a month post op, so for that time it seems to be great already, considering this is your relaxed low end, no effort voice. I am happy for you if this goes on and heals as well as with the others, it will be great. I will look forward on what the ENTs here in Germany will say once you have healed and are going to your examination there. I bet they will be impressed about Dr Kim .

[Allyda]

Hey everybody! 

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls

Seriously you sound very feminine, and very natural. I'd give everything I have to have a voice just half as good as yours. You don't need VFS. I'd go for the hair issue first.

Best Wishes!

Ally

[alexiakk]

Alexia, thank for explaining this! I think I understand now: chest and head voice are kind of the same thing with chest the low end of the range and head the high end of the range - both called 'true voice' in Asia. Falsetto, on the other hand, is a completely different method of voice production - called false voice in Asia. Does that make sense?

They are all true in western studies

But I think Asian people differentiate true/false voice mainly based on timbre instead of vibration pattern. For example, operatic female singers usually use their head voice on singing high notes, in US we call head voice "full voice", but in Asia they consider all operatic female voices as "false voice". In fact all of the notes are mixed, there's no such thing as "pure chest voice" or "pure head voice", you can sound very chesty and strained (and they will perceive it as true voice), or very heady (and they will perceive it as false voice) by modifying proportion of chest voice/head voice in your mixed.

The boarder line of their standard is actually very vague - for example, my Filipino friends cannot categorize the voice Ariana Grande or Mariah Carey uses when singing - some claims that they use true voice and some claims that they use false voice (to Yeson I think they'll say it's false), they even think these two are good at switching between true/false voice (In fact they never change methods, it's just the component they put).

Falsetto is an entirely different pattern in western study. It's definition is also very vague in Asia - some say that it's the vibration of only the ligament part of vocal cords and other say that it's the incomplete closure of vocal cords, some people even say that it's the vibration of vestibular (ventricular) folds.

So generally:
Chesty & stained = true voice

Heady & ease = false voice

Falsetto = false voice

They distinguish by timbre.

[Charlotte]

Hi Charlotte. 

Haven't really extensively looked into the differences between FUT and FUE. But as I understand it:

FUE
*More expensive
*Less visible scarring
*Hair results in regard to growth, strength, longevity, etc. slightly less better than that of FUT

FUT
*Less expensive
*More visible strip-like scarring
*Better results than FUE

Am I missing anything here? Right now I'm mainly concerned over the excellency of the results and would probably go for FUT considering it is cheaper, and the scarring does not bother me as I will be growing my hair out to cover the scar anyway. If someone could make a case for FUE, that would be great. 

I think with FUE you get a much softer hairline because the surgeon can cherry pick the finest hairs (at least that what they say). They yeild is about the same as FUT with a good surgeon. Also, for me anyway, I don't really want yet another scar on my body with all the numbness that comes with a massive scar.

[alexiakk]

Am I the only person who's able to talk with not much labor (with just a bit hoarse) 1-2 week post-op?

I felt really guilty these 3 days as I am having my FFS... so I MUST TALK. I hope things won't be messed up because of these 3 days talking and I will return to the "shut-up" mode again.

I found something interesting though - my F0 in English raises way more than my F0 in Chinese, and I really don't know the reason. Another thing makes me kinda frustrated is that the lowest note I was able to produce pre-op is A2 (in good time G2), but days ago I was still able to produce an A2 post-op 10 days... They told me that the low notes will diminish gradually and I should stop producing them anymore until they are totally gone.

Amy, I thought your current lowest is C3 - did you have any experiences on low notes during the first month?

[AmyBerlin]

Hi Alexia,

Amy, I thought your current lowest is C3 - did you have any experiences on low notes during the first month?

In the first month, on the few occasions when I said anything, my voice would sometimes be as low as Bb2 (E2 was the preop lower limit). Current lowest note is Db3.

Hope this helps,

Amy

[AmyBerlin]

Hi all,

another month has passed, so it's UPDATE TIME! So here are the new and old voice samples, all in one place:

	German (Der Nordwind und die Sonne)	English (Rainbow Passage)
Feminine/elevated (everyday speaking) voice preop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0fbDP36ry7K	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hN6hw8TOxK
Masculine (original) voice preop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JPQiX70wiD	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0X8tQgYcmcw
1 month postop		http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV
2 months postop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s1j7Weqs0JsD	http://vocaroo.com/i/s1teNwvony7g

You can find an audio progress report on my voice development here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Dm4JPn9vsu. Overall, I'm very happy with the way things are going.

Love,

Amy

[anjaq]

Thanks Amy. Yes it is pretty great! Congrats.
Actually I think that attempt to make a male voice was actually getting into an androgynous range, but it was not really male sounding. So your best effort to come out as male sounds not really male - Thats neat. But I guess it is forced anyways, so I doubt that you could slip into it by accident.
What I noticed is that your readings are using a bit less inflection and prosody than pre op. But thats to be expected 2 month post op considereing you are just starting to use the full range again. What I noticed was that in some sentences in the spoken report, you seem to want to go lower for some single words, but it will not work anymore. Similar to Meghan. your voice becomes breathy and has less volume there, so I guess you are getting into that low end range that is not really useable anymore. So possibly you will also end up with a bit higher voice than you now use as an average voice to get that pitch range available so you can also go a bit lower when speaking. Comparing both recordings of the readings pre (everyday) and post op, the pitch seems to be the same, but you can hear that in the post op recording you are using a bit of a different resonance. It doe snot sound male but it makes the voice sound a bit different. But again - considering that this is a no-effort voice, just think about what would have come out if you would do the same pre-VFS. probably it would be that pre(male) recordings
Actually ... does it feel from the way you use the voice and muscles and control over the voice box similar to what you did in the pre (male) recordings now but it comes out as you posted it?

[AmyBerlin]

Dear Anja,

What I noticed is that your readings are using a bit less inflection and prosody than pre op.

Quite intentionally so. I've just started doing voice exercises today and sang a simple song for the first time since surgery, but the flexibility and agility of my voice are nowhere near where they were pre-op, yet. But I'm confident my abilities will return.

What I noticed was that in some sentences in the spoken report, you seem to want to go lower for some single words, but it will not work anymore. Similar to Meghan. your voice becomes breathy and has less volume there, so I guess you are getting into that low end range that is not really useable anymore.

Yes, it's weird, the mind plays all sorts of tricks on you while getting used to the new voice... And yes, if I had spoken with the muscles used the same way pre-op it would have sounded SO male. In the recording I spoke without even raising the larynx, literally with no effort at all. Over the next weeks, I'll gradually start shaping the voice more to make it sound a bit prettier.

Amy

[anjaq]

Hi Amy

Quite intentionally so. I've just started doing voice exercises today and sang a simple song for the first time since surgery, but the flexibility and agility of my voice are nowhere near where they were pre-op, yet. But I'm confident my abilities will return.

Yes, I was thinking that you would do so. It is just 2 Months now, so still time for just slowly starting again to use your voice fully. So now you will have to learn to play a new instrument - your own modified voice

Yes, it's weird, the mind plays all sorts of tricks on you while getting used to the new voice... And yes, if I had spoken with the muscles used the same way pre-op it would have sounded SO male. In the recording I spoke without even raising the larynx, literally with no effort at all. Over the next weeks, I'll gradually start shaping the voice more to make it sound a bit prettier.

I think I can hear that you did not raise the larynx - but that is still amazing to have a really no-effort at all - voice and it still sounds like that in the recordings. So this would be in the future the point where you would drop down to if you really are totally relaxed or sick or ... - and that is great as it still doe snot sound male - and as you said, it is a lot easier now to apply resonance changes, so it should be easy in the near future to get a really beautiful voice with just a little bit of effort and that is really great. It basically is all that was to be exprected for a good outcome of this surgery, right?

By the way on a totally different note - did Dr Kim say anything about loud screaming or calling out loudly post-op? Is it something that should be avaoided forever or is it at some point safe to do? (e.g. calling for help in a  really dangerous situation)

Again congrats on your success
Bye for now. CU.

[AmyBerlin]

Hi Anja,

By the way on a totally different note - did Dr Kim say anything about loud screaming or calling out loudly post-op? Is it something that should be avaoided forever or is it at some point safe to do? (e.g. calling for help in a  really dangerous situation)

He cautioned against singing and loud voice use up to 2 months after the surgery. I still avoid it as much as possible, especially since it still causes fatigue quite quickly. However, yesterday somebody dropped my piano keyboard lid (I've got an old-fashioned Blüthner drawing-room grand, so it's quite a noise)  and I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal. Initially, I was afraid that I might have messed something up – not so, the voice is still the same. However, I'm going to try to limit loud voice use at least until the half-year mark.

Amy

[anjaq]

I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal.

That made me LOL. - Neat.
My questionw as more about the long term effect though. e.g. after a year - is it a problem then to really scream out in panic loudly or to make any sound at the most loudness possible? Did he say anything on that or is there really only a restrictin on that for the first months and after wards you can use the voice fully in all aspects? I am worried sind of course when doing loud noises, the strain on the first suture next to the opening must be quite high.

[Jennygirl]

I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal

Sounds like your new vocal folds are acclimating

Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

[anjaq]

Sounds like your new vocal folds are acclimating

Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

Totally sounds great! I would really love to involuntarily shriek and laugh like that - though I must say I can shriek and giggle at a high pitch right now as well if I am in the right mood. But this totally sounds great. You all are quite lucky to have your new voices. I am happy for you.

[AmyBerlin]

Dear Jenny,

Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

Yes, the laugh has definitely changed, although before surgery, I used a "head-voice laugh" that was perceived as feminine; some people even commented on it and said they found it cute. Well, it was definitely characteristic. My new laugh is much more like a regular girl laugh.

The shriek though was definitely head voice, since I didn't strain at all. I have made no attempt yet to belt in chest voice in order to give my vocal folds time to heal. What I've been doing to get back into singing is to sing along with Ella, Sarah Vaughan, Dee Dee Bridgewater and Diana Krall CDs. Their singing style is very relaxed in that it doesn't require lots of physical exertion, but is full of rapid runs and arpeggios that help develop flexibility and range. Tomorrow morning I have my first post-surgical appointment with my voice teacher. We'll see what she says.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

[anjaq]

Oh yes I guess I also do a head voice laughter at times - but sometimes I don't - depends on my mood , I guess. But it would be interesting to have a womanly laugh without head voice - You two are luring me really into getting another contact with Dr Kim. He should not reject me again now that I managed to fix my hourglass glottis issue - but if I do it will be next fall only - there is no timeslot before where I could be away for such a long time. Ah well.
I would be really interested in what your voice teacher (is it a voice therapist or phoniater or a singing teracher?) has to say. They usually are so dead against it... it would be cool to get them convinced - it would really speak for the procedure.