question about "the left wing"

[kariann330]

Why doesnt the NRA support closing loopholes?
If they care about gun safety so much, why dont they try harder to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and mental patients?

It is not a "loophole" as you keep calling it. What happens at gun shows are 100% LEGAL private sales. Just as you coming to my property, or compound as i affectionately call my heavily wooded 16.5 acres, sitting down at my kitchen table and purchasing  a gun i don't use anymore....say my 2nd generation Taurus PT92 SS and then going out behind my trailer and tossing 17 rounds down my personal range before you take your new purchase home.

A loophole, is illegally bypassing a law for ones personal benefits....such as driving 5 over the speed limit.

[TerriT]

Im independent and i dislike both sides of the aisle.
But this:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html
Thats why im against guns.

This is not a very good reason to be against guns.

1. Your map consists of total reported crimes, not anything specifically related to guns.
2. Reported crimes are largely, well, reported in the US and other industrialized nations. They are much less reported in third world nations which lack an adequate police force to even report crimes to.
3. The US has a very large population. 313 million. The population of Russia is less than half of that, and of course many crimes in Russia go unreported anyway.
4. In the US, everything from breaking a window to smoking a joint is considered a crime. You map does not contain any of the relevant data.

However, we can peruse the FBI's crime database to give us some more accurate information.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

It can be remarkably informative. There is a massive amount of data to sift through and I would encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to investigate. The data is listed by year from 2007 - 2011. There are some interesting things. For example:

2011
Total firearm related deaths: 8,583
Death by Hand gun: 6,220
Rifle: 323
Shotgun: 356
Other: 97
Not stated: 1,587

And while, I will admit that 8,583 is too high, it is also over 2000 less than in 2007 when gun sales actually skyrocketed and have continued. The other notable thing, is that murder committed by rifle is a 323, yet every time anything happens, that is exactly the firearm that politicians race out to ban and blame. But in comparison, more people, 496, were actually clubbed to detach while 728 were beat to death with bare hands or feet!

So the horrors of the human condition wage on. It is easy to demagogue a scary looking rifle and lay all of societies atrocities at it's feet, it's quite another to accept that humans actually are pretty relentless in finding ways to kill each other. Go watch "The Act of Killing" sometime. Or read history and find out what happens to people after they've been disarmed by their governments. Even the result of gun bans in a place like Australia, which had a rather low level of gun crimes or ownership to begin with, have not had any significant impact on crime. But, you know, I'm finished with my TLDR post of the evening.

[Emo]

It is not a "loophole" as you keep calling it. What happens at gun shows are 100% LEGAL private sales. Just as you coming to my property, or compound as i affectionately call my heavily wooded 16.5 acres, sitting down at my kitchen table and purchasing  a gun i don't use anymore....say my 2nd generation Taurus PT92 SS and then going out behind my trailer and tossing 17 rounds down my personal range before you take your new purchase home.

A loophole, is illegally bypassing a law for ones personal benefits....such as driving 5 over the speed limit.

Loopholes are legal.
Thats why its called a loophole. You cant go to jail for exploiting a loophole which is why they need closing.

At this point, anyone can buy guns at a gunshow with out background checks. The issue isnt legality. Its morality and safety.
Morality because people dont seem to care who they sell the gun to as long as they get the money, and safety because it gets in the wrong hands.

We can limit the wrong kinds of people getting these guns if we just involve background checks so we can identify who is stable enough or qualified enough to carry a weapon.

We carry a license for a car. Why not one for a gun?

[kariann330]

This is not a very good reason to be against guns.

1. Your map consists of total reported crimes, not anything specifically related to guns.
2. Reported crimes are largely, well, reported in the US and other industrialized nations. They are much less reported in third world nations which lack an adequate police force to even report crimes to.
3. The US has a very large population. 313 million. The population of Russia is less than half of that, and of course many crimes in Russia go unreported anyway.
4. In the US, everything from breaking a window to smoking a joint is considered a crime. You map does not contain any of the relevant data.

However, we can peruse the FBI's crime database to give us some more accurate information.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

It can be remarkably informative. There is a massive amount of data to sift through and I would encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to investigate. The data is listed by year from 2007 - 2011. There are some interesting things. For example:

2011
Total firearm related deaths: 8,583
Death by Hand gun: 6,220
Rifle: 323
Shotgun: 356
Other: 97
Not stated: 1,587

And while, I will admit that 8,583 is too high, it is also over 2000 less than in 2007 when gun sales actually skyrocketed and have continued. The other notable thing, is that murder committed by rifle is a 323, yet every time anything happens, that is exactly the firearm that politicians race out to ban and blame. But in comparison, more people, 496, were actually clubbed to detach while 728 were beat to death with bare hands or feet!

So the horrors of the human condition wage on. It is easy to demagogue a scary looking rifle and lay all of societies atrocities at it's feet, it's quite another to accept that humans actually are pretty relentless in finding ways to kill each other. Go watch "The Act of Killing" sometime. Or read history and find out what happens to people after they've been disarmed by their governments. Even the result of gun bans in a place like Australia, which had a rather low level of gun crimes or ownership to begin with, have not had any significant impact on crime. But, you know, I'm finished with my TLDR post of the evening.

Now for the "guns kill people" side, it would be amazing if someone would post a graphic showing how small the amount of gun related deaths are in the US compared to things such as auto accidents, drug overdoses, disease or even accidents. A lot of people would be shocked to see that gun deaths, will be at the BOTTOM of that list even if you included 100% legal self defense (castle law or stand your ground) related deaths.

[Emo]

@kariann
Try that statistic again for murders.
You cant end death but you can limit the cause of it.

[kariann330]

Loopholes are legal.
Thats why its called a loophole. You cant go to jail for exploiting a loophole which is why they need closing.

At this point, anyone can buy guns at a gunshow with out background checks. The issue isnt legality. Its morality and safety.
Morality because people dont seem to care who they sell the gun to as long as they get the money, and safety because it gets in the wrong hands.

We can limit the wrong kinds of people getting these guns if we just involve background checks so we can identify who is stable enough or qualified enough to carry a weapon.

We carry a license for a car. Why not one for a gun?

Ok you do know that unless a person has been involuntarily committed by a COURT OF LAW that a person can still buy a gunin the US. The only thing a 4473 asks if if you take certain types of medications, or if you abuse illegal substances (good luck buying a gun or getting a job Colorado lol) if you say no then your all good. Attaching any kind of medical record to a background check, even on the federal level....would violate so many privacy laws that anyone who passes that law would instantly be imprisoned.

[TerriT]

Why doesnt the NRA support closing loopholes?
If they care about gun safety so much, why dont they try harder to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and mental patients?

Because there is no loophole. Every new gun purchased is processed through a NICS check. Every licensed dealer must perform this and further laws are subject to whatever state, county and city has established. It's a remarkably complicated process.

The difference is if I wanted to sell a gun. I can sell it to whoever I want. Private sales are not regulated other than if you sell you guns to somebody you know is likely to commit a crime, then you become a "straw pur->-bleeped-<-". Effectively, this is the crux of the F&F case. Dealers were reporting that they did not want to sell to a pur->-bleeped-<- and BATF forced them to anyway. Regardless, in a state like CA, all firearm transactions must be processed through NICS and be transferred though an FFL. It's also a very self regulated industry. Gun show promoters will not tolerant any such BS at their events because they do not want to get shut down either.

In other words, closing the "gun show loophole" has nothing to do with gun shows, it has to do with private transfers of guns, which already draws a considerable amount of attention by the BATF, who may or may not also be encouraging such activity.

And for the record, if you were to transfer a fully automatic firearm (which are not cheap) you must submit a full set of fingerprints, clear a transfer tax, be certified by local authorities and obtain approval from BATF. And only automatic guns produced before 1986 are allowed.

And I lied about my TLDR limit for the night but the mods are threatening to shut this down and I need to get it in before it's too late!!!

[kariann330]

@kariann
Try that statistic again for murders.
You cant end death but you can limit the cause of it.

That is what i meant by "gun deaths".....murders, self defense related killings, accidental discharges and suicides....all would be greatly shadowed even if you just compared them to deaths from car accidents let alone diseases

[Emo]

Then what do you propose we do? Cuz i dont see us regulating ourselves.
A law exists to protect our rights from anyone willing to take them.
That includes life.
The overall message i keep getting is that people value their guns and their access to them  more than they value life. And this is wrong to me.
There is no moral code saying you have the right to own something that is dangerous and can so easily kill someone. Every moral code says you have the right to life.
You may not be one to kill or murder someone, but there are too many out there who are.

[Cindy]

.

And I lied about my TLDR limit for the night but the mods are threatening to shut this down and I need to get it in before it's too late!!!

No I'm not, just trying to keep the peace with my unlicensed qwerty keyboard

[Emo]

That is what i meant by "gun deaths".....murders, self defense related killings, accidental discharges and suicides....all would be greatly shadowed even if you just compared them to deaths from car accidents let alone diseases

Im talking intentional killings. Not accidents.
Accidents will always exist. We're human. But murder is intentionally taking the right of another to live.
Whats the stat that says more people are murdered using a car than a gun?

[kariann330]

Then what do you propose we do? Cuz i dont see us regulating ourselves.
A law exists to protect our rights from anyone willing to take them.
That includes life.
The overall message i keep getting is that people value their guns and their access to them  more than they value life. And this is wrong to me.
There is no moral code saying you have the right to own something that is dangerous and can so easily kill someone. Every moral code says you have the right to life.
You may not be one to kill or murder someone, but there are too many out there who are.

Question: just as there are people who abuse firearms and use them o commit crimes, there are just as many people who abuse the internet and water and harm other people and the environment....does that mean because of several bad apples we should shut down the internet once and for all, or make using water for personal consumption illegal? I know your answer will be "No" so i ask, why do the same with firearms and law abiding citizens too?

[Emo]

@kariann
Because the internet and water cant kill people as easily as a gun.

[kariann330]

@kariann
Because the internet and water cant kill people as easily as a gun.

Water at a high enough pressure can cut 1/2 inch steel....skin and bone will be no problem....and while the internet can't kill you yes, but it can destroy your life....wreck your credit, empty your checking and savings, open new accounts in your name then use them to fund terrorists and land you in good ole Gitmo for life, render you homeless and before you know it your wishing you were dead or living under a rock. In hindsight i would rather live next to someone who has 20 guns and enough ammo to start world war 3 then have a hacker/identity theif running loose destroying peoples lives from there smartphone, personal computer, or even the local library running illicit programs off a flashdrive.

Same goes for alcohol, cigarettes and sodas over 16 ounces.

[Emo]

Whose going to take the time to get enough water and the right equipment to kill someone if a gun is so much easier to access?

My point is, life is more important than property.
How would you feel living next to someone who is plotting to commit the next mass murder at a mall or school?
Comfortable just isnt the right word.

[TerriT]

Whose going to take the time to get enough water and the right equipment to kill someone if a gun is so much easier to access?

My point is, life is more important than property.
How would you feel living next to someone who is plotting to commit the next mass murder at a mall or school?
Comfortable just isnt the right word.

I think 70 people were murdered by drowning and 80 by chocking. I've posted the stats but I can't recite them of the top of my head.

Many neighbors do not suspect a thing. ie: "They were always so quiet." More evidence also points to people not coming forward about a dangerous neighbor out of PC reasons or fear of being judged.

Life is important. The greatest equalizer in life is a firearm. Human history is filled with Might Makes Right examples , but a 90 lbs girl can defend herself with a gun. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I do not want to be a victim. Especially one of the 200+ trans women murdered last year. Rape is not tolerable either. Hoping nothing bad will happen is an unrealistic strategy.

[Shantel]

Im talking intentional killings. Not accidents.
Accidents will always exist. We're human. But murder is intentionally taking the right of another to live.
Whats the stat that says more people are murdered using a car than a gun?

I think the conversation centers around the causes of unnecessary deaths perpetrated by others in the US and not about the tools that they used to accomplish it. Doctors and drivers kill more people per capita in the US each year making firearms related deaths minuscule. Most of the firearms shooting death figures deal with suicides. You will note also that the doctor and driver related deaths are always blamed on the individual and not the tool used to bring about death. I've posted some statistics to back this up which relegates the entire gun control issue as nothing more than a knee jerk reaction by ill informed citizens who are being manipulated by those who would willingly do away with the 2nd amendment which is the backbone and assurance that the other amendments remain intact. Once the 2nd amendment is gone the others will be stripped away with impunity, one does not have to be or even want to be a firearms owner to understand this, it's an historically proven fact.

http://seggleston.com/1/wp-content/custom/ds_index.php

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/07/30/doctors-death-part-one.aspx

[Emo]

But whats the point of owning these guns?
They cant get you to work. And there have been too many accidental shootings as well.
I can understand the protection aspect but if the other person is unarmed, why would it be appropriate to arm yourself?
Why is it necessary to threaten someone with death if they step too close or look remotely suspicious?

[Shantel]

But whats the point of owning these guns?
They cant get you to work. And there have been too many accidental shootings as well.
I can understand the protection aspect but if the other person is unarmed, why would it be appropriate to arm yourself?
Why is it necessary to threaten someone with death if they step too close or look remotely suspicious?

If anyone wanted to take the time, just about any conclusions could be extrapolated from those questions and carried over to another subject like why would anyone want to own a motorcycle and risk their lives and the lives of others when the traffic is so dense on the roads and highways? Why would you text while walking? Perhaps texting devices and cell phones with texting features should be outlawed so that pedestrians don't get run over by drivers accidentally while enjoying their freedom to drive a car. The answer is because we don't live in a Nanny state where Big Brother has control over every aspect of our our lives and our freedoms and we don't intend to let people mindlessly take us to that place either.

[DanicaCarin]

In all the debates about guns/2nd A, I always wonder the same thing..... How did gun violence become the issue it is today? I was born in 1970. I grew up in a time when pretty much every town had a Rod & Gun club, archery, basic firearms safety, and responsibility were common for young kids to learn about. The same weapons were avalible(Very common) as far as the types demonized today. Semi auto, high capacity handguns, rifles, & shotguns. In fact, up until 1986 select fire weapons(fully auto rifles,machineguns, ect.) where legal to buy at your local gun shop!

Back then gun violence was unheard of! With the exception of some "pimp", "gangster", or "drug dealer" shooting a rival scumbag, we never had any GUN VIOLENCE. No child or adult(crazy or sane) would ever consider walking into a school. workplace, bar, movie theater, ect and start shooting. It just didn't happen!

The first time I recall a workplace shooting, was the postal worker that killed several of his coworkers. Remember? That's where the term "going postal" came from. As far as school shootings, Colombine was the first.

So what happened? The weapons where there! The same problems people had where there! What changed that people felt it was OK to gun down your coworkers, fellow students, teachers, police officers because you where upset?