What constitutes passability?

[Lisbeth]

Very odd experience last night.  I got to class about a half hour early, so I sat down with one of my classmates and talked.  Because I'm an older student I commented that I'm so much more organized than when I was in school the first time, so she wanted to hear about it.  I told her about my majors (math and physics), and she said, "I suppose you were the only girl in the math department."  !!!  Well, no, I wasn't... on a couple of different levels.  I was truthfully able to tell her that 2/3 of the math majors were girls.  I... just didn't say whether I was one of them.

This sort of thing happens all the time, but do I pass with everyone?  No, of course not.

[Melissa]

Hey Nero, that's no fair that you didn't offer your own view. Pony up, boy!

My own experience defines passing for myself on layers... I don't believe it's an absolute and it has a lot to do with what the person wishes out of transition and how they experience themself.

Level one passing: Getting ma'amed in person. Always being taken for female on the phone without clues. Having other women say comments to you that suggest they feel you were born this way (childbirth, intimate body-related stories) Walking by groups of rowdy teenagers and not having them stare, loud whispers, make snotty remarks or laugh. Going into women's rooms populated by rowdy teenagers and not hearing them shout/whisper obnoxious comments or laugh. Not having old Chinese ladies glare at you (seriously, the ultimate arbiter!). To my surprise, I've reached this level of passing. I never thought I would. It creeped up on me and it makes me feel as if, yes, I'm doing something right. Very affirming.

Level two passing: Intimate body contact with another (intelligent, perceptive) person and they assume you were born this way. I'm preop for a few more months so I haven't gotten to this stage. It makes me nervous because, apart from my genitals, there are aspects of my body that just don't feel very female yet. Hopefully, by this time next year, I'll know more about this level. It scares and intimidates me but it gets to a kind of close connection with a man both mentally and physically as a woman and this means a tremendous amount to me.

Level three passing: Someone finds out your trans background and, literally, can't fathom that you were ever considered male. Now I know there are people who say this to transitioners, but there's a big difference between saying it (to be a decent person) and really experiencing it. Can't say I'm entirely convinced I'll get to this point? Perhaps just because being over 6', I think that alone could make someone tend to believe the possibility of me being trans, although a lot of this has to do with the sophistication of the person. I live in San Francisco and, while not everyone here is trans-knowledgeable, it is perhaps the hardest city in the world in which to pass.

Passing is a difficult thing to perceive because we don't know what's going on in other people's minds— did they have to ask themselves the gender of this person (me) they're glancing at? Unless they talk to you about your period or childbirth, it's hard to know what they really think. I do get some looks on the street and I never know if it has to do with "oh, she's tall" or "look at the ->-bleeped-<-" or "I'd like to do her" or "I wish I was tall and thin". Which one of those (or something else) are they thinking? An important part of passing will be when I don't need to ask myself that question.

ciao,
Gina M.

Hmmm, that's very interesting.  I definitely pass at level 2 (as much as possible being pre-op) as long as my genitals aren't seen/touched.  I have been intimate with several people who had no idea until genitals got involved.    Now the only person I'm intimate with still treats me how I want to be treated.

Then I pass at level 3 sometimes.  I have told several people who could not fathom it.  I had to actually spend time arguing with them and showing proof.  Other people just kind of shrug and say ok.  Maybe they don't believe me or maybe they don't care.  Either way, I know how it feels to be treated as a GG and as a TS.  I prefer being treated like a GG.  There's definite subtle differences, so I can usually tell based on body language if somebody has read me.

However, to be passable, I don't think the last level is really required.  It's nice to have, but I think there are some GGs who can't even get to that level.

Regarding integrating into society, I can do *almost* anything I want to that's within physical limitations (i.e. no childbirth or anything involving a vagina).  Recently I have gone swimming in a bikini (tape does wonders) and am now rehearsing in a musical as a female singer/actress.  I've had absolutely no surgery, but I am constantly putting my passability to the test.  Once I have SRS, I don't see that there's anything I can't do that an infertile GG can.  Heck, after SRS, I may even try going to MWMF where only GGs (and trans-men ) are supposedly allowed just to do it.  I just don't trust them enough before surgery since they may have something devious set up to scan genitals or something like with those new controversial airport x-rays.

So, to me passing means not only being seen as a woman, but being able to do just about everything I would be able to do had I been born as a girl.  If there's something about me that doesn't pass sometimes (or even makes me apprehensive), I will work to find a way to correct it (or learn to accept it).  I think I have an slight Adam's apple, but everyone (with the exception of Dr. O) I've voiced that concerned to looks at me like I'm crazy and that they can't tell.  Truth be told, I can't see it without bending my head WAY back, but I can feel it.  So I have learned to accept it--learning that some GGs have an Adam's apple helped. 

My waist was in a female location, but it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as a GG's waist, so I started waist training.  Last time I checked, I was down about 4 inches (but I temporarily gained a couple pounds).  Anyway, it's looking much better now.  I prefer non-surgical methods when I work on correcting something if it's possible (i.e. Learning about certain herbal supplements from Asia to assist with breast growth).  SRS will be my first transitional surgery.

Regarding the use of the word "blending" to replace "passing".  I certainly don't just try and blend.  To me that implies you are just trying to get by and hope nobody notices you.  In a way, passing carries the same connotations.  I guess if I were to choose a word, it would be "being".  I don't pass as a girl.  I just go and be a girl.   Since I am being a girl, there usually is nothing to *be* read.  In fact, I would even be bold enough to say that instead of being read, I am merely being mistaken for something else.  I just use the word "passing" to convey that idea with a familiar term.

[gina_taylor]

My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.
[/quote]

Hey Lisbeth, my sentiments exactly. When ever I go out as a woman all that I am looking for is to be treated respect . 'know soemtimes  do have my off days and even  know that I'm not at my best.

Which is fine if that's what you want. Lisbeth, that works for you, good. It will make things easier.

For me, it isn't. I wish to live socially as a woman as completely as possible and to the best of my ability have my outsides match my brain and spirit. In my experience it's very different when people know and when they don't know.

Gina, I can totally agree with you here, but I've learned to just take life as it is. If I run into someone that I know form my male life, I'll still act like a woman instead of tipping my hat and letting that person know.
My psychologist thinks that I'm 'delusional,' but that's his opinion. He's also tried to convince me that my transsexual problems stem from damage to the frontal lobe of the brain, which handles the social part.

I've met transwomen who transitioned 15-20 ago, said they've lived in complete stealth yet their voices were completely unpassable. Yes, I live in a transaware place, but I still wonder where they did this that nobody noticed?

Sometimes people will look at the body language and when they see a transsexual who has transitioned 15 - 20 years ago, they automatically see them as woman so when they hear their voice, their minds are already seeing them as women, so it doesn't really matter much. Read my post under passing . . .

Gina T. 

[Keira]

I'm not sure I agree with that. If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like. So, the 15-20 year "stealth" must live with people that just decided to humor them, which is perfectly fine. If everybody around you treats you with repect, it will be very hard to know if you don't pass, and it won't matter really.

But, I've met truly delusional people who shuffle from side to side, arms off the body and have voices like darth vader and say they're stealth! Then, I just say whatever and leave them to their little fantasy; it would be pointless to try to break it if they are happy. That's what's important in the end isn't it.

[Lisbeth]

So, and how did that experience compare with having a similar conversation and telling someone you're a transsexual?

Just curious.

Gina M.

When I have had those conversations I generally get an "I would never have guessed" and/or a "the surgeon did a great job."  (The latter is a non-sequitor since I have never had FFS.  What are people thinking about us?)  And it has no affect on our relationship.  We just go on as before.  Of course that could be because I'm selective as to who I tell.

If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like.

I'm not so sure.  While your mileage may differ, I know that my voice doesn't cut it on the phone, but in person people's eyes are overriding their ears.

I have been taking a class this summer and regularly participating in the discussions, etc.  A couple weeks ago I got some kind of head congestion that was playing havock with my voice.  At one point I started coughing in class, and about a half dozen people looked at me in a very startled way.  It wasn't until that point that the dissonance between eyes and ears reached the point that they noticed it.

[Maud]

Plausible deniability.

I know a TS who's read as male all the time because she's a massive dyke however she still maintains stealth.

[Lisbeth]

There's a certain disappointment in having someone else figure it out rather than me telling them.  But beyond that it generally isn't an issue.  Any friend who drifted away didn't deserve to be my friend anyway.  And the vast majority of people I deal with are more concerned with the kind of person I am than my gender history.  Yes, I've met discrimination, but in Minnesota that's illegal so people tend to back down.  And even though it's waining, "Minnesota nice" is still the rule here.

[Kate]

And the vast majority of people I deal with are more concerned with the kind of person I am than my gender history.

Exactly! I think a lot of TSs are all too quick to blame any negative reactions on their TSism, not passing, discrimination, etc. But you know, sometimes people are rejected because they're just plain not fun to be around. GGs get rejected by other women too, for good reasons (rude, mean) AND bad (not attractive enough, not "cool" enough) reasons.

I know of a TS who is totally passable, and yet they seem to get fired from one job after another, sueing every company and person who crosses them for "discrimination." But they're so utterly confrontational with everyone, constantly spoiling for a fight, I can easily see WHY it keeps happening. It's not that people care she's TS, it's that she's bitter and angry and ends up alienating everyone around her.

Which brings up a question: can you pass as a woman without passing as a genetic female?

~Kate~

[gina_taylor]

I'm not sure I agree with that. If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like. So, the 15-20 year "stealth" must live with people that just decided to humor them, which is perfectly fine. If everybody around you treats you with repect, it will be very hard to know if you don't pass, and it won't matter really.

Keira, if you think about this for a moment, maybe what I said you might understand.  Nowadays, there are a lot of natural women out there that wear low cut blouses so that they can show off their cleavage. When a male sees anyone of these women, their eyes are at the clevage and then they'll look at their eyes. I feel it's the same way that when a guy sees a transsexual, he'll be checking her out first and then he'll hear her voice, and by that time it doesn't matter. It's actually happened to me a few times with guys. When I wear a short skirt, they see my legs first.

Gina 

[Steph]

I may be going off topic a little but I think that at this point it may be worth while for other readers here.

Leigh once said in a past incarnation of Susan's:

What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

and then Kimberly resurrected this topic in one she started here:

Passing or Acceptance, redux

It's a very interesting read and may be help and insightful to others here.

Just a thought.

Steph

[Krisstina]

I think Tink said it best keeping it simple it means (that know one can detect your actual birth sex.) But I would bet most people say they pass as soon as they are able to walk down the street and hold light conversations undetected.   

And I think reality is that very few are completely undetectable (I am sure not at this time) I know as time goes on the degree in witch I  pass  grows all the time. I find myself interacting further and further with out detection.

I think this is how it goes for most of us and I be leave we all can pass even the one who are struggling and feel they will never pass will pass, if they stick with it and work hard they will achieve more than they ever thought possible.

How is important is all this well I think it depends on how secure you are. Me ive been insecure and superficial so I have busted my butt trying to pass. But in the back of my mind I know that isn't whats is most important in life. The type of person I am is far more important.



Kristina 


See my new baby   

[katia]

PASS: [This] means to be in [one,s] preferred gender image, and to be able to do so convincingly.

Passing (to pass) - To be able to successfully assume the gender role opposite of physical sex when interacting with society.

[mavieenrose]

Personally speaking I don't at all like the term 'passing', as to me it suggests acting and that's what I did before transition, not after, but hey I realise that that's a whole different thread, so I won't go there right now...

I suppose 'passing' for me would be when people you know or meet just 'feel' you're of your true gender, it's pretty intangible, but you can sense that you're not giving out any suggestion, concious or subconcious that you're anything else than what you appear to be.  This goes beyond clothing, looks or the particular activity you're engaged in at any one time, and really is about sending invisible waves of femaleness (or maleness...) to those around you.

One moment that proved to me I 'passed' (or rather that people were at last seeing the true me...) was after I'd been on HRT 6 months and had recently gone fulltime.  I was in the loos at work and a very close friend and colleague I'd known before and after transition asked me if I had any tampax I could lend her.  Of course I had to politely reminder that I didn't even have a vagina, let alone tampax...

She looked at me puzzled for a few seconds and that just said, oh yeah I forgot.

Voilà!

MVER XXX

[Buffy]

Personally speaking I don't at all like the term 'passing', as to me it suggests acting and that's what I did before transition, not after, but hey I realise that that's a whole different thread, so I won't go there right now...

One moment that proved to me I 'passed' (or rather that people were at last seeing the true me...) was after I'd been on HRT 6 months and had recently gone fulltime.  I was in the loos at work and a very close friend and colleague I'd known before and  transition asked me if I had any tampax I could lend her.  Of course I had to politely reminder that I didn't even have a vagina, let alone tampax...

MVER XXX

Yes this is not an act its real life and living a life that any normal female would live.

I always carry tampons in my handbag, I have been asked so many times in toilets, that I now feel obliged to hand one over. Similarly with headache tablets, band aids and a small sowing kit....

Buffy

[Melissa]

But you know, sometimes people are rejected because they're just plain not fun to be around. GGs get rejected by other women too, for good reasons (rude, mean) AND bad (not attractive enough, not "cool" enough) reasons.

I've rejected a couple of GGs because I found them kind of annoying.  I don't choose my company by just anyone who is willing to be around me, I choose to be with people I like being around.  That's one reason I stick around here.

[mavieenrose]

This goes beyond clothing, looks or the particular activity you're engaged in at any one time, and really is about sending invisible waves of femaleness (or maleness...) to those around you.

Cher Ma Vie:

I agree that vibe and 'being' are so important, but before we generalize about this, can you acknowledge that we don't all start out with a level playing field? Someone who is young, 5'7", looks very female and has a pretty good voice can send out 'waves of femaleness' and will just be accepted as a woman. Someone who 6'2", doesn't facially pass, has hair issues and, perhaps, not an especially female voice putting out 'waves of femaleness' will have people assuming they're gay or a crossdresser. This has nothing to do with how female you are inside, some of it is just dumb luck.

In my experience, people do innately connect with the physical (and auditory) in terms of gendering. It happens way before anyone can even experience your energy and once it's occurred, it's very difficult for most people to regender you (except over a long period of time, as in your tampon example). Yes, if someone comes  off with 'male energy' they will create an incongruity no matter how they look or sound. As I mentioned in another post, it's those incongruities that have people taking a closer look at you and is often when people who are farther along in their transitions don't pass.

Hi Gina,

Yes of course you're right that our physical being is very important and I was clearly over-simplifying things in my previous post.  That said, I really do think it's not just about looking female (ie conforming to the stereotyped physical female traits), or male outwardly. 

I think the most important thing is to have reached at least a point of ambiguity, a kind of androgony (and no, I'm not trying to suggest that this is at all the same as being 'androgyne').

Once someone can at the very least not be readily categorised based on their physique, then the underlying femaleness or maleness that eminates from the person can come in to tip the balance. 

Luckily, most people can't conceive of anything more than 2 genders or sexes, so they will always try to place us as either female or male. If a person appears physically gender neutral, then it's often the person's mannerisms and ways of communicating that will place them firmly in one or other box.

bisous,
MVER XXX

[Kate]

Someone who 6'2", doesn't facially pass, has hair issues and, perhaps, not an especially female voice putting out 'waves of femaleness' will have people assuming they're gay or a crossdresser.

Oh I dunno, I mean that pretty much describes me perfectly. My face CAN pass, but not always I'm sure. The hair receded in the temples, though it's reasonably workable. My voice.... eh.... MEW's heard me at my worst (I had just talked to my mom before her and was sorta freaking out), but at it's best it's tolerable, and doesn't scream female by any means. And I am 6'2".

But I don't get laughter, snickers, or anything other than being treated with respect. No one ever seems to assume I'm a crossdresser or that it's a fetish of some sort. I mean OK, I don't know what's going on in their heads, but as best I can tell they just treat me as Kate. Guys hold open doors for me, girls tell me about their babies and annoying husbands.

This is really hard to explain, but I THINK it's because I'm... well... *congruent*. Even if I don't pass, this IS me. I look and seem real, a whole person. I'm not trying to "pass," it's not a role, I'm not "presenting as a woman," I'm not "going out enfemme." This is me, this is my life, and people seem to react accordingly to that.

On the other hand, if someone goes out in a miniskirt and heels with two weeks' beard growth... right or wrong, people are going to feel justified in laughing at them. People don't seem to like fakeness, or incongruence, or what they see as pretending to be something you aren't. So as odd as it sounds, I don't *try* to pretend that I'm a genetic female... I just focus on being Kate and hope for the best. No one can really laugh at me for being Kate, though they MIGHT laugh if I seemed like I was trying to fool them into believing I was a genetic female. There's a subtle difference there that's difficult to explain. And if people DO think I'm a genetic female, well that's a wonderful gift. But if they realize I'm a genetic male, it still doesn't ruin the impression that I'm still ME, still Kate, as THAT'S what I focus on projecting... just HERE I AM! THIS IS ME, WARTS AND ALL! lol...

~Kate~

[Lisbeth]

Passing is not worth obsessing over.

[Kate]

Passing is not worth obsessing over.

Ya know, I struggle and ponder and end up writing paragraphs of dribble to try and convey some point I can't seem to put into words...

Then YOU come along, and sum it up into a sentence

Hugs,
~Kate~

[Shana A]

'Pass' is a lousy word, and a word that has ugly assumptions and imposes a lot of judgments on us from broader society.

I agree Gina. I don't know what word to replace it with at this moment, but am going to give this some thought. Wouldn't it be nice to have a word the celebrates our beauty of who we are without all the negative baggage that "passing" has accumulated.

zythyra