Pre-Op transsexuals Are Still Male . . .

[stephanie_craxford]

I have to agree with you Dawn especially the following:

You are what you are.  Anyone can call themselves a woman and they may actually believe it with great conviction but do other people *see* you as a woman, treat you like a woman?  Are you accepted as a woman?  It think it is pretty hard to forge on if other men and women won't accept you as a woman.

I can't remember if we had a topic on "What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter.  But I can imagine that there would be a lot of variety in the answers and the debate around them.  And yes there are some transsexuals who go over board to make the point that they are a woman.  I believe that it relates a lot to the anxieties that many experience and suffer during transition and even afterwards I guess.  I remember a while back when I started living full time, a little JK boy remarked that "Hey, how come you sound like a boy"  That takes the wind out of your sails, for a second anyway.

Steph

[Kimberly]

Female brain is fairly normal from what I understand, although it depends on the theories (Personally I think Dr. Bushong has the right idea).

That said, by definition a pre-op (which is to say on HRT but with original parts) is NOT male. Male's have testosterone flowing unimpeded though their body... But I suppose any such shallow definition is rather inaccurate.

However, defining "woman" has never left us with any agreement, which I rather think supports Dawn's thought.


An last, but very definitely not least...
*HUGS Sandi TWICE*

[Leigh]

 a little JK boy remarked that "Hey, how come you sound like a boy" That takes the wind out of your sails, for a second anyway.

Steph.

I will bet that I have the worst voice here.  Thanks to cancer of the lymph nodes, the surgery to take them out.  I have a horizontal scar 6 inches long in the middle of my neck.  Combine that with 7 weeks, 5 days a week, of radiation.  If you have no idea what it is like take a lump of raw meat and microwave it on high for two minutes every day for 35 days.  The radiation literally cooks your taste buds, saliva glands and vocal cords.  Imagine trying to talk with a voice that sounds like crap and it will never ever get better.

I have had kids say the same thing in front of their parents and when the mom tells them  "don't be silly of course shes a girl" makes it all go away.  Women have all ranges of voice--Sandra Bullock for one.  Yea having a great voice does help but its perception that makes the identification female or male.  If they see a woman it would take some really DA stunt to reverse it.

Leigh

[Leigh]

What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

[stephanie_craxford]

What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

I thought it had been done.

Steph

[Shelley]

For me as a CD I think the first but it did take a lot of thought.

Shelley

Lke the photo Leigh. Must say though Inever picked you for a lady in pink.

[Leigh]

That was taken 5 years ago Shelly.  I put it up for Mario's benefit.  He is confused.

Is this more my style?

[Shelley]

Hey,

I like pink, but after looking at the baseball cap for a while I didn't expect.... or maybe it's the whip.

Shelley

[Hazumu]

<snip>
This has always been the transsexual dilemma.  Some respond with excessive displays of femininity, some remain more male and insist they are women anyway, and some blow their brains out because they can't handle the conflict of their internal conviction versus what the world reflects back.  Many have surgery to become more congruent.  Whether this makes them women is another matter.

I think this discussion is moot.  It really is just another labeling exercise.  I think it matters most that women truly accept you as one of them by action and deed, not by title or how you are dressed.

I think the discussion is moot for us, who have come to terms with ourselves and are now striving to make ourselves a little more -- uhm --  coherent.  Yeah, labels suck, and I for one feel it's 'way rude to label anyone.

But there are those who label and pigeonhole mercilessly.  Maybe this discussion is good as 1) a look at how some non-TG/TS people might see/perceive/label TS/TG people, and 2) how to come up with ways to defend against such labeling, because we ain't gonna' wish it away.

An example for point 2 is the people who pigeonhole post-op transsexuals as weird/insane/bad/(insert negative label here) because 'God doesn't make mistakes' or some other overly righteous horse-pucky.  I read a good response to that non-argument -- "Then harelips and club feet shouldn't be surgically corrected because god doesn't make any mistakes."

Now, such graduates of the School of Constipated Thinking will tell you "He" has a penis, therefore the pre-ops are still male.  I'm also sure they believe that the post-ops are still male, only castrated.  So why waste time trying to convince them we are otherwise.

For me, I go by the pronoun you want to be called by.  And there are plenty of supportive non-TS/TG people out there who will do the same.

As others have pointed out, maleness/femaleness is not an either/or quality -- it's a continuum that ranges from ultra-male to ultra-female with two gaussian peaks or clusters, one for the average males and another for the average females.  I myself feel I'm in between the peaks but much closer to the female peak than male, but I have a hunch I'll preserve a few male traits over my transition as I shift more and more toward the female end of the continuum.

Now this thread does kind of intersect on my still-fuzzy plans for my own transition.  Because of the view that society generally has that you're 'either' one 'or' the other, I'm considering using a cut-over date at work, where I stop being male and start being female, complete with change of name, dress, toilet facilities, etc.  It'll be confusing as hell for two or three months, as well as being 'way stressful on me, but I have a hunch that it'll settle down after that -- with the occasional pronoun error by those who knew me when I was a 'he'.

Gee, I've rambled a while... ;-)

Haz

[Hazumu]

What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

What's behind door number three?  I think I'd have to put being accepted just a little higher than being able to pass, but dammit I want BOTH!!!

[Kimberly]

Wait wait wait! You're not saying weird/insane are ^*gasp* something bad are you? ^{*innocent look*}

But besides, anyone who wants to think of me as a man has a really weird definition of a man. ^*shrug* More power to them I guess. Yea they have to pigeonhole because they have no other basis to go on. After all, most people do fit in the either or definition... at least publicly.


By the by I will preserve a few 'male' traits because in part I will not be some defenseless lollypop, but I am very definitely shifting those parts around to function how I, as a girl, want them to work. Does that make them not male traits any more? ^{*smiles and shrugs*}

Anyone notice my definition of a pure woman? ... that stereotypical defenseless always trips at the wrong type etc. ad nausium portrayal that NO woman actually is? Amusing what society would have you think, isn't it? But that is sort of why I phrased that the way I did. Traits that can be considered 'male' really aren't exclusively male at all. Do you call Cynthia Rothrock a guy because she can defend herself(understatement) which tends to be your traditionally male domain?


p.s. as I recall that was a good thread so I present to you Passing or Acceptance, redux

[Leigh]

Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

When the weather is nice I work on my car in the driveway, rotate tires, change the oil.  Does that make me anything other than a woman capable of taking care of myself?

I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.

[Hazumu]

Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

When the weather is nice I work on my car in the driveway, rotate tires, change the oil.  Does that make me anything other than a woman capable of taking care of myself?

Amen!  I taught my sisters how to do tune-ups and adjust the valves on their volkswagens.  They didn't like to do it, but they did when they realized it saved them about $75 a pop to have someone else pretend to do it.

I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.

Like, did you know my mother?  She was always saying that.

Haz

[Kimberly]

Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.
...

Yup, exactly.

...
I have always been a champion of not letting society dictate how you should be.
...

I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

[DawnL]

Just because a person has the knowlege to do something does not mean that they have to abandon it to conform to someones idea of being a woman.

Yup.  I've been told numerous times, "if you're going to be a woman, you have to do this, or you can't do that...".  Well, I am a woman and if I'm doing it, it must be okay for women to do it.

Dawn

[Sandi]

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Fortuanately that isn't a choice we have to make. I would assume that is why you got no verdict.

Sandi

[gina_taylor]

Thanks Dawn for your input.

What I meant by Dawn's mannerisms, was that she walks, talks and acts like a woman. The same as I do, and teh others that I meet at this gender friendly night club. So yes they do accept me as a woman and they treat me as a woman.

Yes Sandi, I remember Adel. And I agree with your thoughts about GID.

Presentation always comes first, Sometimes my voice is a little off, but as long as I look good and am presentable, then I've already won half the battle. 

Gina

[Chynna]

heres my two cents (YAH!!! Now we got a dollar!)
anyway,
I know Biological females (just regular females not FtM or anything) that I myself would classify as men just based on the way they talk, mannerism, the way the carrier themselves etc. (and Yes I tell them that all the time!) I mean come on

if it looks like a duck..........
quacks like a duck..........
Walks like a duck..............
And socializes with other ducks.........

guess what

its a damn duck!!!!

Chynna

now that we have a dollar can someone take me to the .99 cents store!!??

[stephanie_craxford]

Now that you have a dollar Chynna, can you make change for me.  And talk about raising things from the dead, this topic is from January   Sorry I couldn't resist, all topics are valid.

I just cracking myself up here, I know, I know, my meds are wearing off.

Steph

[sheila18]

If you are only looking physically at the individual, don't forget that as hormones do their work, the body becomes less male and more female.  Generally men do not have large breasts or feminine curves.

Melissa

Melissa:
yes, men(some)  do have breasts and curves, not the ones you might want but horrifyinly so. I have seen guys at the beach  that people felt like asking them to please wear a bikini top or a bra, but do something the kids are staring...
  I don't know...but i did see it, sheila