Honest opinions--where?

[sad panda]

How can I get an honest opinion on what gender I look like? Overwhelmingly... well actually always I am told female but it's usually with obvious presentation cues (clothes, well-groomed chest-length hair, maybe a hint of makeup) and I obsessively uphold and believe that I look like a boy to myself, which drives me crazy. I don't want to show people who think I'm a girl pics of myself because I'm POSITIVE they will think I look like a boy/am trans. But also IRL when I have introduced myself to someone as a girl, they get that image of me and that have a hard time seeing boyness.

I'm just so confused... also doesn't help I want to be a boy again instead of a girl but not sure if I'm deluded thinking that I can look like one and keep my long pretty hair...

I know I can't post in trans spaces because people have too many biases. But where CAN I get honest opinions???

[Jamie D]

"I know I can't post in trans spaces because people have too many biases. But where CAN I get honest opinions???"

Not so!  If you are butt ugly or manly, I'll tell you.  There is no benefit to leading you on.  Get yourself over to one of the passing topics.

You know, a lot of natal women need "obvious presentation clues" as well.

[sad panda]

Thanks Jamie. But I'm just damaged goods washing up for round 2, I've heard your opinion already! =o) though, I did actually start changing since then on a higher dose, so I do look different now.

(That was another thing, people always told me I was just deluded that I was not changing on HRT, I made many threads about it thru my transition, but I really wasn't, and I only saw any real changes more recently. I've been on HRT for going on 2 yrs but it's really only effectively been 7 months or so. I'm not blaming people I just mean they are optimists so it's hard to get an objective answer if they happen to know what an optimistic answer is. But if I had trusted people at 13 months, I would have basically had to accept that I would look forever exactly like I did pre-HRT, and even though I passed, no wonder I was depressed and uncomfortable. You just have to trust me on this because I don't want to show old unflattering pics. If you saw the pictures, you would see the difference, it's undeniable.)

Uh yeah, thing is, it's only been 7 months since those changes started happening so technically I am probably going to keep changing for another year or so. But I'm still asking myself if I can handle this/want to.  It's like the more I look like a cis girl, the more I want to disavow gender entirely, stop taking the freaking pills and just be natural. And the more intense my body dysmorphia becomes. Maybe it was the struggle that kept me going before and now all that's left is the pain...

Umh. Anyway. I just want a completely neutral and honest opinion... I don't know how to get it though. It just frustrates me, I feel like everyone's ignoring something in my face that is sooooo obvious to me. Yet I really don't know if I'm wrong or if other people are wrong/too kind...cause they've been too kind before.

Sorry that got so long. :c

[Cindy]

A fact of life that has nothing at all to do with transgender or cisgender is that you can tell someone how they look until you are blue in the face. Unless they believe it, it is meaningless.

When you believe, it all happens.

[Jessica Merriman]

None of us are really happy with how we look because we see the old us in the mirror too often. I don't like my avatar picture very much, but those here saw something different so I left it up. I think I look ridiculous, but others said it was good. Go to the "Can I Pass" topic and let us judge it. Like Jaime said you WILL get an honest appraisal of it and if needed tips to help out if need be.

[Jenna Stannis]

...where CAN I get honest opinions???

Heh, throw up a pic and I'll give you a detailed one.

[sad panda]

Bleh okay. Here's a pic. Just to qualify this... it is a good pic, though my pics are usually worse than real life so it evens out. This is pretty accurate I think though the lighting flatters my skin texture a bit.

http://i.imgur.com/pd2vQQD.jpg

Ignoring the hair which is an obvious gender cue... what gender do you see? And maybe like, how much % male vs female? Personally I see like 70% male.

Please don't just give me a dismissive knee-jerk answer though, because I've gotten that before. How I feel is really serious, I'm not making it up, I struggle with it every day.

[JRD]

If you came into my store, I would most certainly gender you female with no question.  I honestly think you look quite good and don't see anything masculine jumping out at me even looking hard at the pic. This is not a knee jerk reaction or a comment to make you feel better, its the way I see it.

I do know a little of how you feel about yourself though as I experience much the same thing. But I've got a weird way of dealing with it in my own mind.

[saint]

There is nothing in your appearance that would suggest to me you are male.

[Cindy]

Female.
Unless you take T you will struggle/fail to pass as male.

[MadeleineG]

You pass as a woman with self-esteem challenges. 

[Jenna Stannis]

I obsessively uphold and believe that I look like a boy to myself...

Ok, if I had to be really picky, your chin hints ever so slightly at maleness, but only because I know you're trans and I'm looking for male cues. Aside from that you obviously look female and, importantly, I think that you already know that.

Of course, I'm just going by this one picture (a pic of your profile would help) and have no idea whether it's been altered in any way (which I think is a possibility). Also, if I were to see you moving there could be any number of male cues that become obvious. But going by this picture alone, if this is what you actually look like, then there's no way anyone would consider you male.

I think you should end the compliment-fishing expedition and just start enjoying what you have.

[FalseHybridPrincess]

my honest opinion would be that if you want to pass as a guy you ll need to cut your hair and make your eyebrows more masculine...

it cant be helped...im mtf ,if I  cut my hair of course Id look like a guy...
I know there are guys out there with long hair that look 100% masculine and girls with short hair who are completely feminine...
but we as trans (at least at the beggining of transition) dont have that kind of privileges...

[sad panda]

Ok, if I had to be really picky, your chin hints ever so slightly at maleness, but only because I know you're trans and I'm looking for male cues. Aside from that you obviously look female and, importantly, I think that you already know that.

Of course, I'm just going by this one picture (a pic of your profile would help) and have no idea whether it's been altered in any way (which I think is a possibility). Also, if I were to see you moving there could be any number of male cues that become obvious. But going by this picture alone, if this is what you actually look like, then there's no way anyone would consider you male.

I think you should end the compliment-fishing expedition and just start enjoying what you have.

I didn't edit the pic, I just put it in my personal timeline that I keep to see any changes. The reason I could tell I looked female in that pic was because there was a big change from the previous pics, so I saw a femininity I can't usually see. The pic looks different now that I haven't seen that comparison in a while :S usually when I see myself I just see this... I don't know, it's not that I go "that's a man," but if I try to think "that's a woman" my mind rejects it and I think it's wrong and not true, I think I look more masculine than cis girls, or that I have some weird features that make me uncomfortable. I'm not attention seeking, this is something I've struggled with so so much, I never intended to post a pic in this thread, I regret it now but I get how it would look like I'm attention seeking.

It's impossible for me to enjoy it, I don't really care if I look like a girl or a boy, I think boys are beautiful, I just want to look cis as something and not always feel so alien

Female.
Unless you take T you will struggle/fail to pass as male.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of  and the problem is I don't seem to know what actually looks male vs what I think does...

my honest opinion would be that if you want to pass as a guy you ll need to cut your hair and make your eyebrows more masculine...

it cant be helped...im mtf ,if I  cut my hair of course Id look like a guy...
I know there are guys out there with long hair that look 100% masculine and girls with short hair who are completely feminine...
but we as trans (at least at the beggining of transition) dont have that kind of privileges...

Uh-huh, I hate this, because I don't want to get rid of my hair as a boy. D:

You pass as a woman with self-esteem challenges. 

Sorry >< I do have very bad self esteem. Working on this with my T but it's complicated... :c

[Ltl89]

I really don't want to hurt you op as I think you are a very nice person and I like you, but based on that photo it would be very hard for me to see anything other than female.  That's how I honestly feel.  Granted, this is only going off of one picture and I don't know how you appear in your everyday life.  It's just that you seem to have a very feminine presence that my mind interprets as female.  I'm very sorry if that hurts in any way, but I wanted to give you my honest opinion.

One thing that I would say is that it isn't hopeless.  As other said, you can make some changes to your appearance and see if it makes you appear more masculine.  The eyebrows would have to be changed and I think maybe a shorter gender neutral hair style might work.  And if you want to know what people are really thinking, try going out in andro clothes.  If you try to blur your gender presentation and people still see you one way or the other, than you'll know everyone's honest opinion.  It may be an eye opening experience for you and show you where peoples minds are. 

By the way, what is it exactly that you're going for?  Are you trying to have the ability to go both ways with your gender?  That's sort of what I'm getting.  If so, you may want to consider if you want to continue hrt because it's going to make you look more feminine at the end of the day. 

[sad panda]

Thanks, I'm not hurt, just confused I guess. :S

Mmh, essentially I just realized that I don't like being trans/don't want to be, I mean it might sound silly to other people but those are my true feelings, I don't like being trans and no amount of looking natural will fix it, and I'll never believe I look natural or be able to see it, and I don't have a female identity, so I want to just be cis which in my case means being a boy (I'm not attached to masculinity or being a boy either just.)

But I became so overwhelmingly perceived as female in my life that it feels like it should be right, but it just puts me in constant suffering because it doesn't feel right, it feels fake to me, I feel like I'm trying to pretend to be something I'm not exactly, trying to fit into a group I only sort of fit into and ignoring so much of myself for that, but I keep having to protect the image of being female to appear normal.

I really just want to be myself and be cis (a boy) but I don't know if I can have both so it's so frustrating and I wish I had just looked really masculine to begin with so I would have never wanted to transition at all. I never thought I was going to seriously transition, the problem was it just got out of control so easily, one day I was living as a boy and literally the next I was living full time as a girl, I quickly start meeting new people as a (stealth) girl then I have to protect this image of me as a girl and take hormones, and it's like, now I'm stuck, some changes are permanent (boobs) and I don't even feel like I have the choice to be a boy anymore... if I went back to being a boy I would have to give up all the things I do as a girl just to pass as a boy plus get top surgery... but I'm not comfortable as a girl at all... urghghhghgh.

So in the end I just sort of resent myself for being so unstable and impulsive, my transition for giving me this nagging discomfort, and society for forcing me to fit in one box or the other. I feel terrible for ranting like this, sorry, but I am in the ranting forum.... ;_;

[Ltl89]

Thanks, I'm not hurt, just confused I guess. :S

Mmh, essentially I just realized that I don't like being trans/don't want to be, I mean it might sound silly to other people but those are my true feelings, I don't like being trans and no amount of looking natural will fix it, and I'll never believe I look natural or be able to see it, and I don't have a female identity, so I want to just be cis which in my case means being a boy (I'm not attached to masculinity or being a boy either just.)

But I became so overwhelmingly perceived as female in my life that it feels like it should be right, but it just puts me in constant suffering because it doesn't feel right, it feels fake to me, I feel like I'm trying to pretend to be something I'm not exactly, trying to fit into a group I only sort of fit into and ignoring so much of myself for that, but I keep having to protect the image of being female to appear normal.

I really just want to be myself and be cis (a boy) but I don't know if I can have both so it's so frustrating and I wish I had just looked really masculine to begin with so I would have never wanted to transition at all. I never thought I was going to seriously transition, the problem was it just got out of control so easily, one day I was living as a boy and literally the next I was living full time as a girl, I quickly start meeting new people as a (stealth) girl then I have to protect this image of me as a girl and take hormones, and it's like, now I'm stuck, some changes are permanent (boobs) and I don't even feel like I have the choice to be a boy anymore... if I went back to being a boy I would have to give up all the things I do as a girl just to pass as a boy plus get top surgery... but I'm not comfortable as a girl at all... urghghhghgh.

So in the end I just sort of resent myself for being so unstable and impulsive, my transition for giving me this nagging discomfort, and society for forcing me to fit in one box or the other. I feel terrible for ranting like this, sorry, but I am in the ranting forum.... ;_;

Nothing you said is silly.  In fact, in a way it sounds like a common thing that I've heard from many ftm's prior to transitioning.  Listening to you talk now, it seems like you chose transitioning as a way to acquire a sense of normalcy, but you never received any comfort from it.  Almost as though you believed life your particular life would have been easier to live as female so you just rolled along with it hoping that it would solve everything.  However, when you did that it solved nothing and only created new social expectations that force you into being something your not which created a new sense of discomfort.  I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like, am I correct?  Just want to make sure I don't misunderstand you.

I've always found rhetorical questions to be helpful in finding a solution to my problems, so I hope you don't mind me asking some. Did you really want to transition into a female or did you feel it was something you had to do?  And if you took off the social pressure of everyone else's expectations at this point in time, what would you be and how would you look like?  Seriously, do you have an ideal image of how you wish you could appear?  At the very least, you will be able to discover the ideal you under the right circumstances.  Then knowing what your life is like and what changing would require or potentially sacrifice, you would have to ask whether it's worth it to make a change.  Seriously, it sounds very familiar to many ftms because they have developed a life as female and fear losing or destroying what they have in order to achieve a sense of inner peace.  One thing I'll say is that there are many ways to make yourself passable as male.  If you are serious about it, you could always start T and make some changes to your appearance/presentation.  Most ftms that I know are very passable regardless of there starting point.  What's to say you can't find a way to pass as well?

In any event, it's up to you to determine whether this peace of mind is worth chasing or not.  Either way, I wish you luck with whatever you decide to do.  I've been really hoping that everything will work itself out for you for a while.  You deserve happiness.     

By the way, would you like everyone to use male pronouns for now on?  Just want you to feel comfortable and treated the way you feel.

[Jenna Stannis]

I don't really care if I look like a girl or a boy... I just want to look cis

Well, you look like a cis female, everyone here seems to agree and I can't imagine anyone anywhere doubting that. So if you don't care which gender you go with, I'd say stay with female -- you look great.

[sad panda]

Nothing you said is silly.  In fact, in a way it sounds like a common thing that I've heard from many ftm's prior to transitioning.  Listening to you talk now, it seems like you chose transitioning as a way to acquire a sense of normalcy, but you never received any comfort from it.  Almost as though you believed life your particular life would have been easier to live as female so you just rolled along with it hoping that it would solve everything.  However, when you did that it solved nothing and only created new social expectations that force you into being something your not which created a new sense of discomfort.  I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like, am I correct?  Just want to make sure I don't misunderstand you.

Hrm, yeah, sort of. All I know for sure is I had zero plans to transition before I met my bf, I knew I was feminine but transition felt like something I would never ever do, yet slowly I wanted to, but I know if I hadn't met him I never would have transitioned. I think it's hard for me to interact with guys in not a submissive role...

Okay, that sounds ridiculous, but there were other factors too, like how I looked, and I was obviously girly and people would constantly tell me their opinion of that, and didn't really know what to make of a boy like me. Plus I was just a kind of needy/clingy/dependent person and nobody tolerates that in a boy... I guess I needed a kind of attention nobody would give me, again I hate myself for this but I sort of needed to be treated like a child and men are happy to do that to women...

I've always found rhetorical questions to be helpful in finding a solution to my problems, so I hope you don't mind me asking some. Did you really want to transition into a female or did you feel it was something you had to do?  And if you took off the social pressure of everyone else's expectations at this point in time, what would you be and how would you look like?  Seriously, do you have an ideal image of how you wish you could appear?  At the very least, you will be able to discover the ideal you under the right circumstances. 

Uh huh! I want to be a small, cute boy, with long hair, and I want to dye it like an angelic pink/lavendar and wear cute clothes and accessories. I know that this is not as realistic as a boy, but my ideal is to be able to do all those things as cis and as a boy. No wonder I'm lost.... :c my only idea is to become a famous singer, like how else would that be acceptable :/ maybe people think I'm asking for too much, but I don't think it's fair and I don't understand why I can't be that just because people are not used to it. at the same time, I couldn't bear to be treated awfully by everyone, I'm not that strong of a person...

Then knowing what your life is like and what changing would require or potentially sacrifice, you would have to ask whether it's worth it to make a change.  Seriously, it sounds very familiar to many ftms because they have developed a life as female and fear losing or destroying what they have in order to achieve a sense of inner peace.  One thing I'll say is that there are many ways to make yourself passable as male.  If you are serious about it, you could always start T and make some changes to your appearance/presentation.  Most ftms that I know are very passable regardless of there starting point.  What's to say you can't find a way to pass as well?

Mm, yeah, I'm not really sure. The only difference from FTMs is I already had lots of T. Actually my T levels were abnormally high. I did manage to pass as a boy before, only I was on shaky ground, couldn't look my age and my presentation was a lot less femme than I want. It must be 'cuz of my body size/shape, I don't think my face is that femme... but I never had small hips and skinny legs like a guy, I'm more bottom heavy and of course I'm short.

Anywayyyyyy! Thanks so much for your support and advice =o) grrr, sorry I'm so difficult I never know where to go with this but I am thinking of buying some boy outfits to experiment with, if I can find something that fits!

[MacG]

I couldn't see your photo, but I kind of think that doesn't matter.
What you want sounds very reasonable to me, but maybe difficult to accomplish. I wonder if you live somewhere that makes it more difficult to feel like you can live in the in-between kind of gender area?
Anyway, I'd say you're on the right track with experimenting with clothes.
Allow yourself to just be you, as much as you can without thinking about what's expected of you.
And a *good* therapist might help you find a way to ease into self acceptance. Whether that's female, male, or in between as well as however you want you express yourself.