cis fem confused about mtf issues

[Dahlia]

that than you considering that I'm a gay man who's been around MTFs on so many occasions I can't even count I'm 45 years old. Everyone is different, of course, and I wand I haven't had even one experience like that. on't make generalizations about MTFs based on my anecdotal experiences *ahem*, but I will say my experiences have generally been nearly the exact opposite.

Of course...since you're a cisman and most MTF are into women (only)
And the op is a ciswoman...quite a difference, isn't it?

[kira21 ♡♡♡]

Hey, quite a lot of folks are into cats!

Isn't that illegal?

[locame]

Having re-read the OP's erm, OP, I see (and correct me if I am wrong):

" one mtf online who hit on her "

(wasn't just hitting on me, I was generalizing. It was frequent attempts to engage me on the topic of sexualized things. Examples, talking about her clitoris aching, and other creepy things that I thought were creepy even for a female (as i didn't know the mtf status at the time). I recognized the person had other issues, and declared non-interest openly and when the topics would come up cut off the conversation.)

- one 'out' mtf who asked how her boobs look and said men don't know how to satisfy women.

(seperate people. And yes, a stranger I think was the point. an out mtf that I knew asking me that, I wouldn't have questioned. Approached in public while bumping into someone while i'm coming out of the restroom is another. The other was also a stranger (a different one) and it wasn't just the one comment about the needs of women. That was a summary. It got more explicit than that, in discussing orgasms etcetera until I picked up and left. I have met only one memorable female who was "forward" to use your terminology and described her sex toys. It is not an experience I have with other women generally. The rest that I've known in life were men who feel it's their right to comment on my sexuality, my breasts, my rear end looking good in my pants, etcetera. The only place i have encountered bold conversation like that among women is in close relationships. I know there are probably highly sexualized women out there in the world, I just haven't encountered them.

"The trans person you met will likely not have got to socialise with groups of girls as one of them growing up, may have had little idea of how to be 'one of the girls' and be taking their best guess. I am thinking sex in the city style. Just a guess. It doesn't really matter. "

This actually was my original theory. Thinking maybe there was just a lack of understanding of personal boundaries and circles when discussing body/sexual issues. I don't expect to hear or enjoy them from strangers. A non-trans example, my significant other commenting on my breasts is one thing, a stranger in public another.
In the end though, the biggest issue was having to be ok with an erection in my vicinity without my permission. The facility is investigating, but I got a speech about diversity etcetera even from the manager, after getting called an assortment of nasty things by the person and their friend in the locker room.
It exists among all groups, but I don't feel like I suddenly have to become ok with people crossing those lines. Either the girl at work or the stranger in public. I know it exists for all genders, but many of us cisfems (myself included) have a history of being victimized sexually. Yes, that makes me more sensitive to the topic no matter what the gender. And my public encounters have seemed to me as encounters with "porn women". Meaning, the hypersexualized male idea of what a woman is.

[Dahlia]

I think there are sexual fetishists in the trans* community. Sorry, I don't see why that's wrong to say. Every community has some of those types, and the trans* community has a loot, despite denying it has any.

At what point do we end the PC bandwagon? I say when you have people violating womens spaces and making a mockery of the experiences of trans* people who have struggled with dysphoria and are just looking to be comfortable in their own skin, the sacrifice of political correctness is that you're invalidating...frankly more genuine experiences.

I'm sorry, this cultish mentality, its not something I want to be apart of. Support and affirmation is good, but sometimes this community takes it a weird level of "trannies can do no wrong". And this post I'm going to stand by cuz I said nothing wrong.

I should add I've had experiences not unlike the OPs leaving me...disillusioned.

+1!

[locame]

and just because I know this is a highly charged issue, to introduce some lightness to the topic.....

Check out this guy.

https://www.facebook.com/ThongCapeScooterMan

[ana]

Devlyn has inspired me. I'm just going to be completely honest. I mostly held my tongue though I'm sure some of my thoughts came across in whatever of my tone managed to be transmitted by plain text

For me, I ask this...
Does it really matter whether we believe her or not ? Do we deny that these types of behaviour can and do exist ?
If they do happen, then it means we need to acknowledge and present our position on that kind of behaviour to show that it is not representative of us. At least that is what I like to think.

Gosh its hard enough being trans, let alone having to change perceptions of us.

[arbon]

There are guys out there trying to pass themselves off as women, but still guys. Weird creepy guys.

[locame]

I received a private message, but due to whatever reason I can't respond to it (says I can't send messages). I just wanted to say a big thank you to that person if you're still reading this, for explaining what you did, as well as for your posts in response here. I'd expound further, if I could do so privately.

[Devlyn]

and just because I know this is a highly charged issue, to introduce some lightness to the topic.....

Check out this guy.

https://www.facebook.com/ThongCapeScooterMan

Seems like a happy soul, I'd like to see him try it today, here!

[Devlyn]

I received a private message, but due to whatever reason I can't respond to it (says I can't send messages). I just wanted to say a big thank you to that person if you're still reading this, for explaining what you did, as well as for your posts in response here. I'd expound further, if I could do so privately.

Read the Announcements section and the rules, all will become clear.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Ltl89]

Hello op,

I'd like to ask you a question.  In regards to the bathroom issue, what if the person hadn't been erect?  What if they avoided being completly nude while in the locker room?  What if they acted and lived just like any other woman?  Would you have an issue then? See the thing is there are a lot of us in the transexual community that see ourselves as female and desire to live as such.  The uncomfortable feelings you have about being viewed in the bathroom can be applied to us.  I'm mid transition but am coming very close to living full time as female.  As you may guess, my body has changed and I feel the same insecurity about my body that you may have.  I'd feel extremely uncomfortable in a men's changing room because I wouldn't fit there and I'd feel unsafe.  Going into a women's room will be the only area that I'd personally feel safe and comfortable once I fully transition. It's not about leering at female bodies, I'm not into women anyway, it's about the practicality that sometimes we have to use a restroom.  How would you feel about someone like me?  This is what most transexuals feel, so keep in mind these are the majority of the people you are likely to deal with in women's spaces.  Some of us are non-op, pre-op and post-op, and we come from all ages,  but we all identify as women and strive to live as such.  That's all.  So please, don't let that fetishistic elements cloud your mind on what all of us are.  Many of us aren't like that.  Another thing I'd recommend is to learn about the transgender community's many different sub categories.  It may help you better understand each individual and what their particular situation is. 

Of course...since you're a cisman and most MTF are into women (only)
And the op is a ciswoman...quite a difference, isn't it?

I think it's not really accurate to say that most MTF's are into women.  I've noticed that there tends to be an age gap when it comes to sexuality.  Just from what I've observed, most of us under the age of 30 seem to be straight or bi and those over 30 tend to be either bi or lesbian.  Of course it differs for everyone and it's impossible to generalize, but I have noticed a trend for the most part.  And I should note there is nothing wrong with being a lesbian. I can't help but sympathize with the gay community. I used to struggle with my sexual identity as a straight women because I was seen (and still am by most) as a gay man which came with a lot of consequences.  Believe me, gay men are hated and I'll never forget the horrible treatment I've received because of it.  So, I hate hearing judgement about people because of their sexuality when it is only a tiny portion of who they are. Most transexual lesbians wouldn't act inappropriately like that and I've noticed some discrimnate trans lesbians by assuming they are all fetishists.  Keep in mind that many people will say the same about you for liking men.  Many of us are just seen as gay men in denial and that makes things very difficult to us despite the fact that it's false. So, let's not judge who someone is because of their orientation. Sexual orientation is irrelevant for the most part.  What matters is how one carries themselves and treats others.  I have noticed there are some that see this as a sexual thrill, but I can't believe that's what all the lesbians in our community are like, in fact, I'd like to say it's in the minority, at least when it comes to transexuals. 

[stephaniec]

I am newly out to the trans* community and I am really saddened by what happened to this poor woman with those that are reputed to be part of our community. It saddens me for her having to experience this and for us to bare the responsibility for it because we are such a small minority family inside a minority community. Anything one of us does reflects poorly on the rest of us. I know we can dismiss these acts as a few fringe elements, but this woman experiences them not understanding our community, and rightly questions us for it. I don't blame her one bit. This is the point of reference she has been exposed to. I grew up not having anyone to latch onto as role models, I don't even want to mention how we were perceived, so when people like Janet Mock come along I am elated because now we have someone that represents us to the mainstream the way we truly are.

I mean, the act one bad apple diminishes us all. We win over cisgender people through everyday normal acts of kindness, love, and compassion, until we can be accepted in mainstream.

I'm sorry the fact the someone came to a trans site for answers and opinion and is getting exactly a whole lot of opinions. First off society in general has a hell of a lot of people doing crazy things on an every day basis. I for one got my head bashed in on the train by a member of a certain ethnic group. I didn't proceed to go on line to a group representative of that individuals ethnic group and start asking why my head was bashed in. Things happen in society all the time people die for no other reason than to refuse to give some one a quarter.  I'm sorry for what happen ,but why ask totally unrelated to the situation how could this possibly be. There are a  lot of messed up individuals in this society of every ethnic , size ,educational ,etc. any possible kind of human does stupid things every day on this planet. These are just opinions from a group of people totally uninvolved with what happened Every one has a right to express themselves because it's exactly what was asked for. People get on the internet every day and say things and it's everyone's right to take it with a grain of salt because there is no court of law that I'm aware of that excepts as a deposition from any over the internet source that is with out any legal verification. sorry this is totally my opinion. And I reserve the right to question authenticity without being publicly dehumanize for my right to do so 

[ana]

So beautifully put....Lovely words

I'd like to ask you a question.  In regards to the bathroom issue, what if the person hadn't been erect?  What if they avoided being completly nude while in the locker room?  What if they acted and lived just like any other woman?  Would you have an issue then? See the thing is there are a lot of us in the transexual community that see ourselves as female and desire to live as such.  The uncomfortable feelings you have about being viewed in the bathroom can be applied to us.  I'm mid transition but am coming very close to living full time as female.  As you may guess, my body has changed and I feel the same insecurity about my body that you may have.  I'd feel extremely uncomfortable in a men's changing room because I wouldn't fit there and I'd feel unsafe.  Going into a women's room will be the only area that I'd personally feel safe and comfortable once I fully transition. It's not about leering at female bodies, I'm not into women anyway, it's about the practicality that sometimes we have to use a restroom.  How would you feel about someone like me?  This is what most transexuals feel, so keep in mind these are the majority of the people you are likely to deal with in women's spaces.  Some of us are non-op, pre-op and post-op, and we come from all ages,  but we all identify as women and strive to live as such.  That's all.  So please, don't let that fetishistic elements cloud your mind on what all of us are.  Many of us aren't like that.  Another thing I'd recommend is to learn about the transgender community's many different sub categories.  It may help you better understand each individual and what their particular situation is. 


Quote from: Dahlia on Today at 03:44:49 pm

Of course...since you're a cisman and most MTF are into women (only)
And the op is a ciswoman...quite a difference, isn't it?




I think it's not really accurate to say that most MTF's are into women.  I've noticed that there tends to be an age gap when it comes to sexuality.  Just from what I've observed, most of us under the age of 30 seem to be straight or bi and those over 30 tend to be either bi or lesbian.  Of course it differs for everyone and it's impossible to generalize, but I have noticed a trend for the most part.  And I should note there is nothing wrong with being a lesbian. I can't help but sympathize with the gay community. I used to struggle with my sexual identity as a straight women because I was seen (and still am by most) as a gay man which came with a lot of consequences.  Believe me, gay men are hated and I'll never forget the horrible treatment I've received because of it.  So, I hate hearing judgement about people because of their sexuality when it is only a tiny portion of who they are. Most transexual lesbians wouldn't act inappropriately like that and I've noticed some discrimnate trans lesbians by assuming they are all fetishists.  Keep in mind that many people will say the same about you for liking men.  Many of us are just seen as gay men in denial and that makes things very difficult to us despite the fact that it's false. So, let's not judge who someone is because of their orientation. Sexual orientation is irrelevant for the most part.  What matters is how one carries themselves and treats others.  I have noticed there are some that see this as a sexual thrill, but I can't believe that's what all the lesbians in our community are like, in fact, I'd like to say it's in the minority, at least when it comes to transexuals. 

[locame]

Hello op,

I'd like to ask you a question.  In regards to the bathroom issue, what if the person hadn't been erect?  What if they avoided being completly nude while in the locker room?  What if they acted and lived just like any other woman?  Would you have an issue then? See the thing is there are a lot of us in the transexual community that see ourselves as female and desire to live as such.  The uncomfortable feelings you have about being viewed in the bathroom can be applied to us.  I'm mid transition but am coming very close to living full time as female.  As you may guess, my body has changed and I feel the same insecurity about my body that you may have.  I'd feel extremely uncomfortable in a men's changing room because I wouldn't fit there and I'd feel unsafe.  Going into a women's room will be the only area that I'd personally feel safe and comfortable once I fully transition. It's not about leering at female bodies, I'm not into women anyway, it's about the practicality that sometimes we have to use a restroom.  How would you feel about someone like me?  This is what most transexuals feel, so keep in mind these are the majority of the people you are likely to deal with in women's spaces.  Some of us are non-op, pre-op and post-op, and we come from all ages,  but we all identify as women and strive to live as such.  That's all.  So please, don't let that fetishistic elements cloud your mind on what all of us are.  Many of us aren't like that.  Another thing I'd recommend is to learn about the transgender community's many different sub categories.  It may help you better understand each individual and what their particular situation is. 
</quote>

Hi learningtolive,

Let me try to answer this first part of the question. Before this incident I was unsure on how i felt about the restroom/locker room issue. On one hand, I have compassion for mtf's who would feel the same way in a men's locker room, as I do in a women's locker room with them. I have had the same thoughts regarding gays in the military due to the public nudity involved. And on a non-publicized matter, on lesbians in those areas as well. The idea of an already vulnerable time having the ability to be turned into a potentially sexualized environment. With a lesbian, unless they point it out, I don't know that they are sexually interested in women and the majority of women are not. With an mtf as with any other person with a penis the majority are interested in women.

Following this incident, if i were asked to vote on the issue, I would have to vote against inclusive restrooms, not because all trans persons are like that, but because it opens up the door to people who are. Like, when I leave my apartment I lock the door, not because the majority of people are going to break in, but because the fringe person might. Ultimately, I believe that all people should be safe from non-consensual sexualized situations of all forms.

[ana]

I'm sorry the fact the someone came to a trans site for answers and opinion and is getting exactly a whole lot of opinions. First off society in general has a hell of a lot of people doing crazy things on an every day basis. I for one got my head bashed in on the train by a member of a certain ethnic group. I didn't proceed to go on line to a group representative of that individuals ethnic group and start asking why my head was bashed in. Things happen in society all the time people die for no other reason than to refuse to give some one a quarter.  I'm sorry for what happen ,but why ask totally unrelated to the situation how could this possibly be. There are a  lot of messed up individuals in this society of every ethnic , size ,educational ,etc. any possible kind of human does stupid things every day on this planet. These are just opinions from a group of people totally uninvolved with what happened Every one has a right to express themselves because it's exactly what was asked for. People get on the internet every day and say things and it's everyone's right to take it with a grain of salt because there is no court of law that I'm aware of that excepts as a deposition from any over the internet source that is with out any legal verification. sorry this is totally my opinion. And I reserve the right to question authenticity without being publicly dehumanize for my right to do so 

First off Stephanie, I am terribly sorry about that happened to you. Your words about what happened to you make me shiver. I never meant to solicit ire, as I am not very confrontational by nature, but it seems I might have hit a nerve. So for that please forgive me.

[Jamie D]

I am MAAB. but living as a girl and this has been my experience too at every turn.. :/  lots of sexual harrassment and inapropriateness going on inside the community too.. (that includes on this site in PMs or often just overtly) makes me feel uncomfortable being here and not want to be associated with trans people. I hate that I have to feel that way but I am not OK with this stuff at all. I think a lot of MAAB people just don't understand what is appropriate. Idk.. it's the elephant in the room and I'm just sick of ignoring it.

Your avatar and quote are an example of the problem. :/ maybe you have to think of women as human beings to understand any of this.

You should have reported the problem.  If you don't report the problem and the predators, the problem will continue.

I remember I posted a pic of my cat once and a member (30 yrs older than me?)sent me an unsolicited message with a pic of them in lingerie that happened to have their cat in it. they were like, I can't post this in public heheh. So gross....

Same with this.  I won't sugar-coat it.  It takes members reporting the problems.  I remember bouncing a ->-bleeped-<- who was harassing Donna Troy.  It took her mentioning the problem before an action could be taken.  By not reporting incidents, you make the forum less safe for everybody.

[Jean24]

All anyone can say is that it sounds like you met some real oddballs who have a lack of respect. I haven't met many other transsexuals, but that claim seems true.

[myraey]

I am sorry about your experiences. But like others have said there are many weird people around. I have seen my share of creepers , both male and female. This was when I was just a average looking male. Locker rooms might be a magnet for the rare person into just into sexual harassment. But from my experience the males are more likely to be in the creeper category. And that way the women get a bigger share of that.

I do not want to cause any issues for anyone. Just imagine if you were in the toilet and someone just randomly pointed out there is a male in here.  That would be extremely awkward or much worse. Avoidance of possible conflicts is my thing. No point in making life more difficult. So no public bathrooms or locker rooms. That is one reason why people keep secrets , ignore gid issues and generally are really ashamed. Remember most gay lesbian cis or not go trough locker rooms without any issue. There must have been so many gays present when I went trough male locker rooms without anything ever happening.

[Ltl89]

Hello op,

I'd like to ask you a question.  In regards to the bathroom issue, what if the person hadn't been erect?  What if they avoided being completly nude while in the locker room?  What if they acted and lived just like any other woman?  Would you have an issue then? See the thing is there are a lot of us in the transexual community that see ourselves as female and desire to live as such.  The uncomfortable feelings you have about being viewed in the bathroom can be applied to us.  I'm mid transition but am coming very close to living full time as female.  As you may guess, my body has changed and I feel the same insecurity about my body that you may have.  I'd feel extremely uncomfortable in a men's changing room because I wouldn't fit there and I'd feel unsafe.  Going into a women's room will be the only area that I'd personally feel safe and comfortable once I fully transition. It's not about leering at female bodies, I'm not into women anyway, it's about the practicality that sometimes we have to use a restroom.  How would you feel about someone like me?  This is what most transexuals feel, so keep in mind these are the majority of the people you are likely to deal with in women's spaces.  Some of us are non-op, pre-op and post-op, and we come from all ages,  but we all identify as women and strive to live as such.  That's all.  So please, don't let that fetishistic elements cloud your mind on what all of us are.  Many of us aren't like that.  Another thing I'd recommend is to learn about the transgender community's many different sub categories.  It may help you better understand each individual and what their particular situation is. 
</quote>

Hi learningtolive,

Let me try to answer this first part of the question. Before this incident I was unsure on how i felt about the restroom/locker room issue. On one hand, I have compassion for mtf's who would feel the same way in a men's locker room, as I do in a women's locker room with them. I have had the same thoughts regarding gays in the military due to the public nudity involved. And on a non-publicized matter, on lesbians in those areas as well. The idea of an already vulnerable time having the ability to be turned into a potentially sexualized environment. With a lesbian, unless they point it out, I don't know that they are sexually interested in women and the majority of women are not. With an mtf as with any other person with a penis the majority are interested in women.

Following this incident, if i were asked to vote on the issue, I would have to vote against inclusive restrooms, not because all trans persons are like that, but because it opens up the door to people who are. Like, when I leave my apartment I lock the door, not because the majority of people are going to break in, but because the fringe person might. Ultimately, I believe that all people should be safe from non-consensual sexualized situations of all forms.

Well, I don't really feel it's accurate to assume that everyone with that body part are interested in women as there are plenty of gay men and straight transexual women,  but sexual orientation doesn't dictate behaviour.  I can safely say that I've never stared at any men in bathrooms or locker rooms as I feel it's inappropriate.  I'm sure the same is true for lesbians whether they are trans or cis.  But the thing that does get to me is that people assume that we are predators which is far from what most of us are.  Now, I confess, I've been uncomfortable around some trans people before.  Once a person came up to me and brought up anal sex and their genitalia when I was talking to a concerned mother in private after a trans meeting about the hardships her daughter faces.  It really made both of us uncomfortable even though I tried to be polite and know they meant know harm.  There are other things too, but I'd like to keep them private.  So I do understand why you feel that way even though I think that applies to a minority. To be honest, I have faced inappropriate behavior in the the changing rooms before that was pretty much bullying and harassment, so I know how it feels to a degree even though these things happened pre-transition.  Therefore, I can't begrudge you for this even though it really does hurt to be prejudged as something that is so far from both who I am and many of the transexuals I know. 

I know you mean no harm, but it really does sadden me to be lumped into a category with voyers/fetishists and know many transexuals probably feel the same way.  The fact is all I want is a normal life like any other woman.  I'd wager most of the things cis women want out of life are similar to what we want. However, people have this preconceived notion on who we are and it's reinforced by the actions of the few.  Most of us aren't looking for sexual thrills nor is this a lifestyle choice.  We just want to live as us and in peace. This is the reason most of us don't live out of the closet and I'd be hard pressed that you'd meet many transexuals that would have a glitter hat on identifying them.  Most of us you'd probably not even know about our condition. When people see us as aggressivly sexual men or just the really gay guy, it makes our lives really hard.  We become a second class citizen in the eyes of others and sometimes in the law.  I avoid public bathrooms, but it terrifies me to imagine having to use the men's or women's room once I go full time.  In one I'm viewed as a predator, in the other I'm a women alone in a men's bathroom or the "queer" that walked into the wrong place.  And in other aspects of my life it makes me wonder how I'll be treated.  Will I never find a good career because I'm seen as a freak and may face discrimination because of it? Will any man ever love the person I am or will I just be seen as a gay guy trying to trick him and never get to experience marriage or true love?  Will I ever be seen as one of the girls or accepted as a sister or daughter?  Will my family ever accept me or see me in the same light they once did or will I now always be seen as a weird disappointment?  What if somebody knows about my past and they react poorly?  Will I be ridculed, laughed at or bullied in some way? What if me or my family is attacked or discrimated for it?  Will I forever be condemed as something I'm not or will I finally be understood?  That's why I really hate those who create a distorted image about who we are and why we do what we do.  It makes my life harder and the same for others.  That's why I am going to opt to live in stealth (except with any potential romantic partner) and just live as the real me in secret.  Otherwise, I sacrifice my saftey and security in some form.  I have nothing against those who dress for fun or a fetish, that's their perogative, but I do think that there needs to be an understanding of the differences within the transgender community as it can make a transexual women's life harder than it need be.  We aren't men and most don't behave as such.   It's frustrating to no end because it's another brick in the wall for us to live a normal life. 

In any case, I hope you try to learn where most of us are coming from, and I do appreciate you trying to reach out instead of simply judging us.  Having the understanding and support from the outside really makes things better for all of us who just want to live a normal life as the people we are.   And sorry for this long tangent, but it does sadden me when we are misunderstood or seen as something we are not because it hurts in many ways.  We didn't ask to be born wrong and most of us are just correcting that wrongness in order to find happiness.  While it may be a game and thrills to some people, it's not for most of us.  Eh, sorry again for the long post, it just really hits me emotionally to know that I'm seen as weirdo or predator and lumped into a category I have no relation with because of a minority of some people that call themselves by the same label as me.  It's why I struggle and am so preoccupied about passing and living stealth as these are the things that haunt me.  Sorry if I said anything to hurt or offend because it's not my intention or goal. 

[Miss_Bungle1991]

The majority of MTF are into women (only),
very often have a (very) masculine nature
sometimes behave like straight men..

As far as I am concerned:

1. Yep.
2. LOL No.
3. LOL Again...No.