ID inmate who castrated self in prison sues for estrogen therapy

[Nero]

Well he/she stole a car then escaped from prison. Where do you bleeding hearts draw the line? Do we say yes to murderers as well? What if it had been your car? A crime is a crime regardless of the persons mental/physical condition. I still say add more time. I don't care if it sounds callous or not, it is my opinion and I stand by it. I don't care either what the reason was for the theft. There are other ways of getting what you need without commiting a crime.

I dont care if this person was trans, gay, bi, mental, or whatever. The fact is they commited a crime then escaped from jail. They are there because of poor decisions they made.

If what you all are saying is right, then why in the hell am I working hard to save money for surgery? I should just go commit some crimes, escape from jail, go back and then make the state and taxpayers pay for everything. Gee, why didn't I think of that first? I could be getting everything for free. 


This has nothing to do with misdrected anger. If you feel so strongly for this individual why don't you take up a collection and pay for the surgery yourself. I have zero sympathy for thieves or criminals. Any assumptions you make about why this person is there is just that. An assumption. The point is it was a personal choice to commit the crime then escape from jail. They have nobody to blame but themselves. Sooner or later, personal responsibility for one's actions has to come into play. Sorry, but compassion for a criminal? 

Yes. But mentally ill prisoners are given treatment and medication. Sick prisoners are given the medication and surgery they need. How is this situation any different? Because treatment for GID is optional? How so? This individual was obviously suffering so much, she resorted to self-mutilation.

[Lori]

I am not against the estrogen, just the surgery. Lets make that clear. On the other hand, are you saying being transgendered is a Mental condition Nero? Or are you saying she is sick because of being transgendered?? What are you saying her condition is? This is different because being transgendered doesn't mean you are sick. It is not a mental condition either ....or to me it is neither. Go ahead and dispute that, but since they really don't know what it is or what causes it, you can argue till you are blue in the face and never prove you are right or wrong. To me, it is a physical demformation of the body, just in case you were going to ask.

Self mutilation is not unheard of. I had a friend in Florida named Dana that was on a yahoo support group. The cops blew her away because she was holding a bloody knife after castrating herself. But that is another story.

This "Jennifer" person commited a crime. Drugs would help, but how much money do we spend on criminals? How much surgery do we pay for and perform? Where do you draw the line?

[Nero]

I am not against the estrogen, just the surgery. Lets make that clear. On the other hand, are you saying being transgendered is a Mental condition Nero? Or are you saying she is sick because of being transgendered?? What are you saying her condition is? Self mutilation is not unheard of. I had a friend in Florida named Dana that was on a yahoo support group. The cops blew her away because she was holding a bloody knife after castrating herself. But that is another story.

This "Jennifer" person commited a crime. Drugs would help, but how much money do we spend on criminals? How much surgery do we pay for and perform? Where do you draw the line?

No, I was just giving examples of conditions that are normally treated.

[lighting]

i belive that if she was alraedy on a script for hormones she should be aloud to carry on taking them if she has never had a script  sadly she must wait till her release to start hormones this might feel harsh but at the end of the day she is in prison for a reason and punishment for a crime she commited

sadly she has taken a drasic action and she should recieve help and surport for this to help her while in prison

i myself in the past has been in prison and taken drugs and i admit that it was my own fault noone elses i have now not been in trouble with the law for about 8 years and i am on a program to beat the drugs which is going well i have stopped street drugs and i am atm reducing on methadone and it is going to plan  which i am so happy with but i am only to blame for my action  just like she is and she should accept that punishment for the crime she did like i did hope you can understand what i am trying to say

(sry im bad at spelling)

[MeganRose]

OK, I really have to say:

If someone, who apparantly identifies as a transsexual woman, who claims that they were self-medicating prior to being incarcerated, and after being denied HRT while being incarcerated, takes the somewhat drastic step of castrating themselves and then again asks for HRT - why the hell would you then prescribe them testosterone? Not exactly cruel and unusual in the usual definition, but in my opinion it's heading down that pathway.

I really don't think poor life decisions should preclude one from recieving adequate medical treatment. Obviously we don't have all the facts in this one particular instance, I wouldn't for one second claim to know the exact details in this one case. And I'm in no way implying this is the case in this particular matter, but it is entirely possible to be convicted and incarcerated for a crime that one is not guilty of, given the situation that one finds oneself in. Empathise for a moment - guilty or not, put yourself in a situation where the state has convicted you and now has complete control over your existence, and has told you unequivocally that you will not be given the medical care you know that you need. A situation like that breeds desperation.

People make bad choices every day. Some that hurt them, some that hurt others, some that the state takes away their rights for. It's the human condition. I personally have made far too many, some I could have got in a lot of trouble for. I've been lucky. Some are not so lucky. But I fail to see how taking some peoples bad choices and then using them as a reason for them to not recieve the medical care they require is in any way a moral way for society to act.

Megan

[Lori]

OK, I really have to say:

If someone, who apparantly identifies as a transsexual woman, who claims that they were self-medicating prior to being incarcerated,

Birth control pills are not HRT and that is what this convict was taking before being incarcerated. I do agree they should allow estrogen because it is cheap and it may help. My argument is the surgery. That is what they are suing for.

[MeganRose]

OK, I thought she was suing about being denied HRT - to tell the truth I didn't see one mention of surgery in this article. Maybe I'm not reading between the lines?

In a lot of instances though, one would have to accept that SRS can be just as medically necessary for an individual as HRT. Sure, it can cost a hell of a lot more. Is that the only reason why you think someone who has made some stupid decisions and who now has no right to seek their own medical treatment without government intervention should be denied such a treatment?

Megan

[Lori]

OK, I thought she was suing about being denied HRT - to tell the truth I didn't see one mention of surgery in this article. Maybe I'm not reading between the lines?

In a lot of instances though, one would have to accept that SRS can be just as medically necessary for an individual as HRT. Sure, it can cost a hell of a lot more. Is that the only reason why you think someone who has made some stupid decisions and who now has no right to seek their own medical treatment without government intervention should be denied such a treatment?

Megan

That surgery comment was directed to another individual, not you. I have stated twice already that I do not disagree with HRT. Perhaps you have failed to read that. I dont know how much clearer I can be about it. I agree this person should get estrogen....for the third time. But that is where my "empathy" stops.

If the state pays for that surgery where does it stop? Having a penis is not a life threatening illness. Perhaps in this one case it may be if you want to assume the worst. If they pay for that surgery, wouldnt that open the door for them to pay for all surgeries?

And no that is not the only reason. There is an old saying "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime".

Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.

Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.

Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?

So why give surgery to a car theif who tried to escape from prison? Give them drugs and let them be the same as everybody else.

All I want as a transgendered person is to be treated like everybody else. Just because this person happens to be TS should not grant them any rights not granted to other prisoners. This convict should be treated the same as everybody else. I have zero empathy for any prisoner, and this person TS status is not going warm my heart. In fact it makes me madder for the example set forth to the "community". I shun this person for their actions.

[Hazumu]

Birth control pills are not HRT and that is what this convict was taking before being incarcerated. I do agree they should allow estrogen because it is cheap and it may help. My argument is the surgery. That is what they are suing for.

There's something else to consider, and it's been brought up in one of these topics.  Are we going to throw her into a male population becayse she still has the penis she was born with?  What are the sociopathic hyper-males going to do to her?  Are we going to deny placing her with the OTHER women, simply because she was (again) born with that danged penis?  I mean, they might (gasp) have FUN over there, or something.  If we're concerned that she may be abused by the male population, do we throw her in the Solitary Confinement called Protective Custody, to slowly go crazy?

If she had been born with a vagina, she'd get the same treatment as other female convicts, and NO WORSE.  Her penis is making whatever punishment she is meted 'way worse than the str8s who are incarcerated.

While we're on this national kick of prison-building, perhaps we had better consider a special facility just for homo and trans folks.  That way we can satisfy the conservative 'retribution' blood-lust without inviting calls from the liberal/progressives of 'cruel and unusual'.

Karen

[MeganRose]

OK, so I was being a little facetious, for that I apologise. I know the HRT and the surgery issues seems to be a little different here. It's just that the only difference that I am detecting is the difference in cost between them.

Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.

Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.

Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?

I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.

And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.

Megan

[LostInTime]

It comes down to that SEVERAL of the state's doctors stated that she does not have GID. Her own doc says that she does. The real questions are:

How much background exists with the state's doctors that examined this individual?
What else has this individual been treated for in the past? It is quite possible that this person has gone around the bend.

Surgery. I will go by this guideline. If the state insurance for state employees covers SRS then prisoners who are under the state care should be able to pursue this option or sue for it. However, if successful it should open the door to anyone who has the state insurance plan.

[Manyfaces]

If we are going to take the position that treatment--including surgery--for GID is medically necessary, for any of us, then unless we are going to simply deny prisoners medical treatment of all kinds on the ground that "they don't deserve it"--which is obviously an untenable position from any standpoint in a civilized society--I don't see how you can pick and choose about what kinds of medical treatment prisoners will be allowed to have: 

Yeah, you can have antibiotics for your pneumonia, and insulin for your diabetes, but dammit, you deserve to be depressed, so no antidepressants for you, and hormones because you want to be a woman??  Forget about it, you scum! 

I don't see how anyone can support that position; even from a purely logical point of view, it fails, and ethically/morally it's a disaster.  I think the prisoner has to be allowed the hormones, and even the surgery, because there simply isn't any ground to deny it.  I agree with those who have pointed out that the incarceration itself is the punishment we as a society have decided to impose, and deciding that prisoners should suffer more by being made to endure various other kinds of deprivation--including medically necessary treatment--for punitive reasons is a slippery slope indeed. 

[Dennis]

I agree, Rob. I've posted the opposite in the past, because of my concern that the rest of Americans aren't covered, but it's a false comparison. If prisoners get medical care, they ought to get care for all medical issues.

I still think it's a tragedy that much of the American populace has to pay for basic health care and that an illness or an accident can ruin a person financially.

Dennis

[Nero]

Should we give children to child molester's because that is what they need and we should have "empathy" for their mental state of being and under governmen incarceration, it could be viewed as cruel and unusual punishment to them because they do not have access to kids? Hell no. Let them suffer.

Should we give women to rapists because that is what they must have to feel or be normal? No, let them suffer as well.

Am I being non empathetic to these people or is that an entirely differnt thing to you and you have no empathy for them either?

Ok, now you're just sounding ridiculous here. I'm assuming you didn't intend it this way, but now you sound as if you are equating the sick desires of pathological monsters to GID.

[Sandi]

If we are going to take the position that treatment--including surgery--for GID is medically necessary, for any of us, then unless we are going to simply deny prisoners medical treatment of all kinds on the ground that "they don't deserve it"--which is obviously an untenable position from any standpoint in a civilized society--I don't see how you can pick and choose about what kinds of medical treatment prisoners will be allowed to have:

Everyone here (or I think almost all) agree with providing prisioners HRT and therapy. Yes, surgery is "medically necessary," for most with GID, but not all, some do not want it. Still others would want it, but opt out for other reasons; i.e. family.

The reason for my denying surgery position has nothing to do with the fact that they are a prisoner. It has to do with who pays for it. I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.

[Lori]

I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.

And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.

Megan

The point of the examples was because somebody brought up Mental Anguish caused by GID. Well Rapists and child molester suffer mental Anguish for not getting their needs met. I was then slammed for not having a pity party for this person. What I am saying is treat all prisoners equally. Where do you draw the line? The fact that this individual taking HRT will not harm somebody else but the taxpayers, then I say if it relieves the Mental Anguish then it should be allowed. But it isnt fair to those with mental sexual issues is it.

People convicted of crimes should suffer just as their victims had. The point here is their victims didnt have a choice. The criminal did have a choice. So instead of treating them like victims for their poor decisions, it is in my mind to hope they do suffer for their crimes. I don't know how Australian prisons work, but the 1 I have seen (not because I was incarcerated) but because one of my friends works in one, is that they come in with a minor in car theft and leave with a masters in truck heists. To properly rehabiliate somebody they must pay for their crime. They must be broken down and made uncomfortable at the least. Most of them just need their butt's kicked in. I think its disgusting how they have cable TV, pool tables, and recreation areas. They should be in a dark dank cell with pictures of their victims.

I realise car theft is not that huge of a crime but think about the victim. People depend on their transportation. In this area I live in, there is little to no publlic transportaion. You lose your car, you could lose your job. My boss doesnt care how I come to work. He just cares that I am there and on time. If I cannot get there I am replaceable. Then there is the cost of paying your insurance deductable. Then you only get a portion of what the car is worth according to the insurance agency and it usually far below what you owe. Then say you are upside down on the payments wich is VERY likely since almost every car depreciates and you didnt get enough to pay off the loan? You still need a car but you will end up making two car payments, one to satisfy the old loan, and the second for the new car, wich most people cannot afford to do.

I'm not saying this is what happened to the victim of the car theft but it is a very likey scenario and very common. This also causes everybodies insurance rates to go up. Idiots that steal cost society in many ways and I have zero empathy for them.

[Nero]

The reason for my denying surgery position has nothing to do with the fact that they are a prisoner. It has to do with who pays for it. I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.

I mostly agree with that. But, I think it depends on the extent of the prison term for me. If the transperson has a life sentence or will most likely die before their time is up or be too old to have SRS, I think surgery should be given to them. To live without any hope of congruency, would be devastating for many. I think at the point it could be a life and death situation. The difference between a trans prisoner doing major time and a poor transperson is that the poor transperson still has hope of someday getting SRS. Hope is the only thing keeping most TS alive.

[Manyfaces]

I don't expect to have my tax dollars go towards any transsexual's surgery in society anywhere, nor my own. If it isn't ok for tax dollars to pay for surgery for the rest of us—and it surely isn't—it certainly isn't ok to pay for anyone's surgery in prison. If the prisioner can pay for it with their own funds, by all means let them have it.

The only health coverage I have, currently, is Medicare (I'm on Social Security disability) which is federally funded, and therefore, presumably, at least in part paid by tax dollars--yours, mine and ours, if you live in the US.  I've been told by several people who've done it that I can probably get my hormone treatment covered by Medicare, and refusals to pay for GID-related surgeries are already--I'm told--being successfully challenged in the courts. 

Now, Medicare will already cover a surgery I need on my shoulder, no question. 

Again, I have to ask, why should SRS be any different, if it's medically necessary?  As a taxpayer, you are willing to let me get shoulder surgery but not the top surgery that I need as part of my treatment for GID at taxpayer expense?  Why? 

[Lori]

Ok, now you're just sounding ridiculous here. I'm assuming you didn't intend it this way, but now you sound as if you are equating the sick desires of pathological monsters to GID.

Who are you to decide that one persons mental anguish is different from anothers? According to many people here, criminals in prison should not have to suffer mental anguish because they are convicted. It is a well documented fact that those with sexual mental issues live in anguish for not getting what they need. If you want to be so politically correct and bleeding heart, don't pick and choose who's suffering to ease. Help them all or dont' help any of them.

[Nero]

I think you are using bad examples here. How is letting a TS person, convicted of a non-related crime to their gender identity having surgery hurting anyone else, aside from the fraction of a cent it would be taking from your tax bill? Comparing something like this to giving child molesters children to molest, and rapists people to rape, is rather offensive in my opinion. Last I heard, being transsexual and needing surgery wasn't a criminal offence, at least where I live.

And really, when did incarcerating people become all about inflicting suffering upon them for the crimes they have commited? Call me crazy, but isn't the idea of the whole system that people be rehabilitated, so they can be released and then function in society as happy, status-quo abiding, law-keeping citizens? How is inflicting suffering upon these people going to achieve that? Guess I'm not seeing the big picture here.

Megan

The point of the examples was because somebody brought up Mental Anguish caused by GID. Well Rapists and child molester suffer mental Anguish for not getting their needs met. I was then slammed for not having a pity party for this person. What I am saying is treat all prisoners equally. Where do you draw the line? The fact that this individual taking HRT will not harm somebody else but the taxpayers, then I say if it relieves the Mental Anguish then it should be allowed. But it isnt fair to those with mental sexual issues is it.

People convicted of crimes should suffer just as their victims had. The point here is their victims didnt have a choice. The criminal did have a choice. So instead of treating them like victims for their poor decisions, it is in my mind to hope they do suffer for their crimes. I don't know how Australian prisons work, but the 1 I have seen (not because I was incarcerated) but because one of my friends works in one, is that they come in with a minor in car theft and leave with a masters in truck heists. To properly rehabiliate somebody they must pay for their crime. They must be broken down and made uncomfortable at the least. Most of them just need their butt's kicked in. I think its disgusting how they have cable TV, pool tables, and recreation areas. They should be in a dark dank cell with pictures of their victims.

I realise car theft is not that huge of a crime but think about the victim. People depend on their transportation. In this area I live in, there is little to no publlic transportaion. You lose your car, you could lose your job. My boss doesnt care how I come to work. He just cares that I am there and on time. If I cannot get there I am replaceable. Then there is the cost of paying your insurance deductable. Then you only get a portion of what the car is worth according to the insurance agency and it usually far below what you owe. Then say you are upside down on the payments wich is VERY likely since almost every car depreciates and you didnt get enough to pay off the loan? You still need a car but you will end up making two car payments, one to satisfy the old loan, and the second for the new car, wich most people cannot afford to do.

I'm not saying this is what happened to the victim of the car theft but it is a very likey scenario and very common. This also causes everybodies insurance rates to go up. Idiots that steal cost society in many ways and I have zero empathy for them.

Empathy is a virtue I guess not everyone has been gifted with.